Banned for defending myself

[Jarek]

Saegrimr Loves-the-lizards Possible mis-understanding


Post Content:
Byond account and character name: Loves-the-lizards Byond name Jarektheraptor
Banning admin: Saegrimr
Ban type (What are you banned from?): The server.
Ban reason and length: 1 day, Reason: Turning yourself into an ash drake doesn't give you free reign to kill whoever you want just because you're a fucking dragon on the station.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 17:15 GMT+0
Your side of the story: I became an ash drake via mining within minutes of the round due to some arguably shit luck with an ash drake camping the door to the mining base. I killed it, and drank the blood vial, and with, again, some arguably shit luck, I became a drake. I ran around for a bit, got someone to request the nuke codes and dragged around the nuke disk with permission to protect it. There was a minor mis-understanding at the start that I might've been a non-sentient drake, but I cleared that up over station intercomms. a couple of people tried killing me, and they all ended up dying for it.

Why you think you should be unbanned: There were two people that I know about that I deliberately attempted and successfully did manage to kill before I got banned, but they BOTH attacked me before I ultimately killed and gibbed them to regenerate lost health. I get that I'm a dragon and such, but I was under the impression I was able to atleast defend myself when people try killing me, if thats not true, then I dont have much choice but to wait this out.

[Saegrimr]

Because you're a fucking drake on the station running around dumping lines of fire and demanding dumb shit. Gee why would someone attack you? Denied.

[Jarek]

Really? I didnt run around dumping lines of fire UNLESS I was attacking someone, and even then I TRIED at the very least to make sure that I didnt hit people, but for some god awful reason every time you attack someone it sends out the + of fire even if you didnt ask for it. I have no idea what aggrovated those people to attack me in the first place, other than to hit and run but they ended up dying for it, and for anyone that may or may not have been flamed by accident, I can think of one, I DID try to get cloned but with a power-sink, thats harder than it looks. especially when you dont have hands.

[bman]

i believe i was on at the time but dont count on that, remember some drake shit going down.

i think that some chucklefucks attacking a dragon deserve their deaths.

however: some people not related to the incident are very likely to have died by running into the fire, increasing the casualties beyond the guys who attacked the people.

ultimately i think it's an issue with the feature itself and something that jarek shouldnt be blamed for.
lavaland mining is the only job which lets you self-antag (read: morph) and turn yourself into a drake and get dumb loot hence issues like this, and hence I think lavaland is a heap of shit.

i dont think anyone is to blame and i see saeg's pov

[onleavedontatme]

lavaland mining is the only job which lets you self-antag (read: morph) and turn yourself into a drake and get dumb loot hence issues like this, and hence I think lavaland is a heap of shit.

We've had the same precedents/issues forever now with xenobio slimes and monsters, which is that they can't go killing people randomly, but they're free to defend themselves.

[Jarek]

If thats true, I dont see why I'm banned at all. the people who I murdered on purpose were people who had attacked me with weapons, and not just some random plant or chair that probably wouldnt fuck you over too badly, but a fire-axe and a circular saw. There probably most likely was some accidental fire damage going on but I wasnt going out of my way to kill everyone I could see, Just the people who'd attacked me.

[Alipheese]

I killed it, and drank the blood vial, and with, again, some arguably shit luck, I became a drake.

Shit luck? No you HAVE TO actively drink the dragons blood and have like a 50% chance to become a lesser ash drake. Unless you had no idea what the dragons blood did you could have asked the crew prior. Having around 1000 health you could easy ignore people.

[Jarek]

It's 300 health, And the vial of blood can do much more than JUST turning you into a drake. For example, It could give me the ability to walk on lava without a care in the world, very useful, or turn me into a skeleton which is also pretty good for it's own reasons. It could've also turned me into a cos-play of a drake or just did nothing at all. I'd call it shit luck because rolling a 20 percent chance over ALL of those other things is pretty bad. Or good, if I happened to actually want to be a drake.

You could tell me to ignore the vial completely and go about my day but I wasted my time killing the damn thing instead of actually mining, so I might aswell see if I get any good effect out of it.

[Saegrimr]

Then immediately jumping back to the station right as you noticed you started transforming, making demands, smashing shit up and lighting people on fire because jesus fucking christ you're a goddamn drake on the station why are you surprised someone is going to attack you? TEE HEE JUST DEFENDING MYSELF, VALID ESCALATION.

Shitty fucking memes.

[Digdugxx]

Stop defending people who valid hunted a friendly dragon ya cucks. He didn't attack people unless provoked, if you see a dragon and attack it, you can't ahelp when it fights back.

[Saegrimr]

That's almost as big of a joke as friendly wizard.

[Alipheese]

Stop defending people who valid hunted a friendly dragon ya cucks. He didn't attack people unless provoked, if you see a dragon and attack it, you can't ahelp when it fights back.

You make yourself a drake. Youre no longer human. You are thus valid.

[Jarek]

Because you totally expect me to spend a round that might last an hour in lavaland, just wandering aimlessly. Thats like becoming a morph, and doing the exact same thing. If I'm going to roll drake, Then I'm going to use it to make some people laugh, Same way I'd treat morph. I made no demands, I smashed two chairs and a wall to show off a little bit, I didnt light anyone on fire unless I was in combat, either. Drake on the station being valid would've totally been reasonable in my eyes had the AI, and me as the drake myself not made it VERY obvious that I wasnt an AI controlled drake or a murderer (Since the AI was actively saying how I was actually friendly and non-hostile, AND that attacking me would result in harm) via station intercomms, which you CAN use. I only went out into the hallways when I knew people understood that I wasnt some random drake on the station, and judging from how the majority reacted, they knew. Nobody attacked me, and I told them if they did I'd attack them back. If you were there to witness me asking for the disk it's because I witnessed the clown RCD'ing the doors to the caps office and stealing shit during a power-sink, so I decided it'd be in my best interest to secure the disk. Dragged it to the bridge, sat with the HoP and decided to ask for him to request the nuke codes. He did, but He didnt do it because I was threatening him because I wasnt even an antag, so why would I? Then I asked if I could be the defender of the disk, it seemed like a good idea, considering I was a fucking drake and all, and he was fine with it.

At no point did I make demands, I didnt even break any walls down to access any areas, and the flame summoning bullshit was from when I was attempting to attack the two seperate people who attacked me.

[Saegrimr]

You drank the kool-aid, proved you were quite hostile, and you really expect nobody to try and remove you?

But it's valid escalation now that i'm a huge fucking dragon and can just gib whoever I want that tries right?

[Jarek]

How did I prove I was hostile? I literally JUST said I wasnt attacking anyone, when I first became a drake I bragged about how I killed a drake and became one myself, thats literally it. I didnt tell people I was going to massacre them and I /didnt/ massacre them. Even the AI was on-board with me being around and I have no idea why the fuck the AI would support a drake with the powers to kill if it were actually killing people. Granted, it probably wasnt as happy when I /did/ kill the people who attacked me, but the point still stands that I didnt go around threating or murdering people. Just memeing and looking cool.

By the way if someone attacked me with a circular saw and I was a regular old human I'd still fucking kill them and make sure they cant be cloned, Because they literally just attacked me with a weapon that does damage and ran off, why the fuck wouldnt I get my valid on for that.

Forgot to mention, eating people also heals you as a drake. Considering that when I got attacked, I was lowered to 40 percent health on the stats, I'd say I'm perfectly okay with eating the person that caused this damage, which healed me for about 20 percent, for the record

[onleavedontatme]

you can't ahelp when it fights back.

As far as I can tell, nobody did.

Youre no longer human. You are thus valid.

"You're valid simply for existing but also you can't defend yourself" is a terrible argument, and not the one saeg is making either.

EDIT:

He's not lying about the involuntary fire thing though: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/19590

[PKPenguin321]

I think it's worth pointing out that expecting a player who becomes a lesser drake to stay on lavaland and do nothing for the rest of the round is not realistic. The actions taken once they're on the station is a different issue, but it's by the very nature of the drake that it's presence will lead to some kind of escalation. Even if they just stand completely still, somebody's going to attack them for PHAT LOOT or something.

[Cobby]

Because you totally expect me to spend a round that might last an hour in lavaland, just wandering aimlessly. Thats like becoming a morph, and doing the exact same thing. If I'm going to roll drake, Then I'm going to use it to make some people laugh, Same way I'd treat morph. I made no demands, I smashed two chairs and a wall to show off a little bit, I didnt light anyone on fire unless I was in combat, either. Drake on the station being valid would've totally been reasonable in my eyes had the AI, and me as the drake myself not made it VERY obvious that I wasnt an AI controlled drake or a murderer (Since the AI was actively saying how I was actually friendly and non-hostile, AND that attacking me would result in harm) via station intercomms, which you CAN use. I only went out into the hallways when I knew people understood that I wasnt some random drake on the station, and judging from how the majority reacted, they knew. Nobody attacked me, and I told them if they did I'd attack them back. If you were there to witness me asking for the disk it's because I witnessed the clown RCD'ing the doors to the caps office and stealing shit during a power-sink, so I decided it'd be in my best interest to secure the disk. Dragged it to the bridge, sat with the HoP and decided to ask for him to request the nuke codes. He did, but He didnt do it because I was threatening him because I wasnt even an antag, so why would I? Then I asked if I could be the defender of the disk, it seemed like a good idea, considering I was a fucking drake and all, and he was fine with it.

At no point did I make demands, I didnt even break any walls down to access any areas, and the flame summoning bullshit was from when I was attempting to attack the two seperate people who attacked me.

So the demands regarding the nuke disk are...?

Spoiler:

[17:05:14]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : That if anyone steals the disk
[17:05:16]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : I eat them

[17:06:02]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : DISK
[17:06:03]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : PUNK

[17:06:29]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : Hand it over
[17:06:30]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : RIGHT NOW
[17:06:34]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : OR I EAT YOU

[17:08:04]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : A THEIF?
[17:08:07]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : TIME TO DIE THIEF
[17:08:13]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : YOU TASTE GOOD ON A SANDWITCH

Not to mention

[17:12:42]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : I need to swoop more!!
AKA "I need to do more damage to innocent bystanders so I can claim self defense when they start attacking me!"

These may have been out of context, but important to note [you said this at least a couple of times]:
[17:03:29]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : NUKING THIS STATION
[17:03:31]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : WITH NO SURVIVORS

with

[17:02:49]SAY: lesser ash drake/JarekTheRaptor : Request the codes for me

Of course I'm just ctrl+f drake/jarek so these may be out of context to some degree, but those are your receipts :^)

[Jarek]

The nuking the station one was a joke to myself when I dragged the disk around in reference to "CRASHING THIS STATION WITH NO SURVIVORS!!"

Swooping more was because when I was being attacked, I was biting myself and dealing huge amounts of damage to myself since they were hugging so close to me with melee weapons. If I swoop and target them, I'll end up landing ontop of them and hit them, removing the problem.

I asked him to request the codes (him being the HoP) but again, never threatened him. Actually seriously expecting a drake or mob with no dexterity to be able to utilise a nuke disk and actually enter the code provided it was given to nuke the station would've been a bit silly. Disk theft was a little heated due to the fact I was taking my disk guarding role very seriously - This wasnt going to be in effect until the hop announced it as a punishable act. That final one with the "time to die thief" was because someone announced on radio and it WAS confirmed that anton slavik stole the nuke core, so I was yelling about it.

[Alipheese]

As making himself a drake he becomes valid to escalation. You can't expect everyone to ignore the giant fucking dragon on the station.

[Saegrimr]

You really make a lot of OOC assumptions with how people are supposed to treat you yet expect IC escalation to be standard?

[Jarek]

If I ever saw a fucking dragon that I knew breathed fire and had the ability to kill me if it wanted talking to me, I wouldnt decide to start bashing it with whatever weapon I could find, I'd probably just run the fuck away or atleast be chill with it.

Not to mention this drake is offering to defend the disk - of which the captain failed to do - and is also offering to robust some of your enemies for you so you dont have to. I think this drake totally has to die, and is totally a threat to my life!!

[John_Oxford]

This is equalvilant to giving someone a mauler as a non-antag then telling them not to blow anyone up when they try to ion rifle you for having a mauler.

It's dumb. You know it's dumb. you just can't be arsed to understand that its not the person who got given the mauler, is the admin (coder in this situation) who spawned (coded in this situation) the mauler (dragon in this situation) into the game (into being a playable mob in this situation)

literally banning people for being a big evil dragon when the policy behind it is shit, you know its shit, you just arent willing to go the extra mile and do something about it other than banning the person who played the big stompy dragon.

i rest my case.

(also objective to defending jarek, he's a shitty person anyways)

on second thought nevermind jarek's a cancerous nigger anyways

[XDTM]

I'd rather not encourage people that toolbox anything that looks valid even if it explains that it's not aggressive. Pushes the game towards deathmatch and prevents potential fun interactions (come on, protecting the disk with a dragon does sound fun).

[Jarek]

About an hour before I'm unbanned again, Still not got a greenlight or a redlight on getting this sorted. Glorious. I'm super impressed with having an adminote about me that, at this moment in time, Doesnt look like it's even going to be there for the right reasons.

[Shaps-cloud]

I'm throwing this ban out simply because there were no PM's or ahelps. Literally the entire argument here could have been avoided by you just PM'ing him directly while the incident was occurring and discussing what he was doing/what the situation was/what is and isn't okay with him in the moment, which I guarantee would have been much more effective at teaching him a lesson if needed than randomly dropping a ban on him, and now this entire thread is basically going through the motions of what should have happened during the initial adminhelp but with the addition of people who have zero clue about the situation (including the headmins who are expected to sort through this all and other assorted people who love posting in here when they're completely unrelated). There's literally no reason to no-knock ban someone who has been part of the community for a while and likely isn't lmaogriffing, and most players are absolutely more than happy to step to the side and stop what they're doing to speak to an admin when need be.

Headmins are here to handle cases that have already exhausted all normal channels, absolutely including normal discussion over ahelps when the incident itself occurs, we're not here to do your job of investigating and piecing together the situation when you didn't even speak to them in the first place

[Saegrimr]

we're not here to do your job of investigating and piecing together the situation when you didn't even speak to them in the first place

There was nothing to piece together, I watched them rampage, and do it from the first second he drank that meme of a item.
The intent was pretty clear, and I followed through accordingly. To say he didn't do exactly this would be fucking laughable.

I wasn't aware everything needed to be ahelped first, that throws out a significant portion of bans as well as encourages everybody to ahelp about ever little bump and scrape they get "just in case".

[Shaps-cloud]

Clearly he had a side to the story that wasn't just "I thought it would be funny" and you didn't even try to divine what happened or see things from his perspective (which I will remind you is all important in a roleplaying game with imperfect information). And no, I'm not saying that you arbitrarily cannot act without someone ahelping it first, what I'm saying is that I expect you to do your job in investigating the whole situation so we don't have people getting banned when there might be some perfectly valid defense on his part, or perhaps equally as worse, the player was mistakenly under the impression that what he was doing wasn't wrong and gets no explanation for why what he was doing was wrong besides a snarky ban reason

[Saegrimr]

Clearly there's not enough info about why this whole self-antagging business is shit.

[bman]

lavaland mining is the only job which lets you self-antag (read: morph) and turn yourself into a drake and get dumb loot hence issues like this, and hence I think lavaland is a heap of shit.

We've had the same precedents/issues forever now with xenobio slimes and monsters, which is that they can't go killing people randomly, but they're free to defend themselves.

but do you really think someone who gets to be ling wont murderbone using it.

do you really really think you can trust people with that, or atleast to trust it not to cause issues aka this.

let me retract my statement, i like lavaland's atmosphere and design but NOT it's mechanics and gameplay aside from the usual shit such as mining.

[D&B]

lavaland mining is the only job which lets you self-antag (read: morph) and turn yourself into a drake and get dumb loot hence issues like this, and hence I think lavaland is a heap of shit.

We've had the same precedents/issues forever now with xenobio slimes and monsters, which is that they can't go killing people randomly, but they're free to defend themselves.

but do you really think someone who gets to be ling wont murderbone using it.

do you really really think you can trust people with that, or atleast to trust it not to cause issues aka this.

let me retract my statement, i like lavaland's atmosphere and design but NOT it's mechanics and gameplay aside from the usual shit such as mining.

I have yet to see someone from xenobio become a ling and murderbone as non antag without getting a ban hammer shoved up their ass.

[Shaps-cloud]

No one cares, go to policy discussion

This thread is resolved