[Sometinyprick] Drbee - Lavaland ban for roleplaying

[Dr_bee]

Account name: Drbee
Character: normally Melvin Bee but in this case I was a random ashwalker.
Banning admin: Sometinyprick
Ban type: lavaland roles
Ban reason and length: attacked another ashwalker to defend a human. banned for 2 weeks.

My side of the story:
Ok. there were actual roleplay reasons why I did this. For one, I was the first ashwalker who spawned. for the first 10 minutes of the round the ashwalkers and miners had not been hostile. then after a bit I got into trouble and was attacked by 2 mobs. I ran off and the miners helped me by taking care of the mobs and allowing me to take the bodies.

It was then, that me and one other ashwalker waited out an ash storm with a miner, with no violence taking place at all. There was even some idle chit-chat. It was then that a new ash walker spawned, and began rampantly murdering the miners. I tried to put a stop to it, attempting to drive the other ashwalker off from the miner with a few stabs and some thrown spears, and eventually after the miner was beaten in to crit and succumbed I dragged him to the mining base, traveled to the station, and threw him to the cargo staff and stayed in the mining room on the station in self imposed exile for the rest of the round as the other ashwalker then proceeded to come on the station to continue his murder spree.

Supposedly my reasons for attacking the other ashwalker were not good enough in the eyes of Sometinyprick, who said that any reason to attack other ashwalkers was "stupid" and then banned me for two weeks. Note: I did not beat the other ashwalker into crit. I did not kill the other ashwalker, I just tried to stop him from murdering someone who had been friendly and also had not harmed any tendrils and given us bodies.

why I should be unbanned:
I thought this game was about roleplay and not murder-boning. I know ashwalkers are prompted to start hostile to the miners. But I assumed that we were given some leeway into how we decided to roleplay. Also, I did not beat the other ashwalker into crit, I did not kill the other ashwalker, and I left the nest as soon as it was clear that the other ashwalkers were going to go hostile as well. Ashwalkers last I checked were not a team antag like cult or revs, unless the already unclear rules about Lavaland ghost roles suddenly were changed on me.

Sorry if I sound a tad salty.

[D&B]

If the other ash walkers spawn recently then they have no real way of knowing whereas the humans are peaceful or not. They are just following the prompt that marks them as a hostile invading force and roleplaying that part.

Ash walkers killing miners are roleplaying too, that's literally the flavor text they receive on spawn. Just because you decide to be a pacifist doesn't make you a better roleplayer, and to even insinuate so is incredibly fucking stupid.

[Dr_bee]

If the other ash walkers spawn recently then they have no real way of knowing whereas the humans are peaceful or not. They are just following the prompt that marks them as a hostile invading force and roleplaying that part.

Ash walkers killing miners are roleplaying too, that's literally the flavor text they receive on spawn. Just because you decide to be a pacifist doesn't make you a better roleplayer, and to even insinuate so is incredibly fucking stupid.

not implying that. there was some words spoken during the fight, various stops and friendlies, etc etc. the situation got solved in character too, I self exiled and didnt bother the other ashwalker. I am mostly concerned as to why I got banned for a player interaction that did not end up in any deaths and eventually worked itself out without admin intervention.

[Sweaterkittens]

I'll chime in here because I was the Ash Walker butchering the miners.

The point here is that Ash Walkers exist to hunt and kill. You're playing a predator. If you choose not to attack the miners, whatever. If they don't attack you and you get all buddy'd up to them, fine. Hell, one of my favorite rounds as an Ash Walker involved meeting a friendly scientist who I had some absolutely fantastic interaction with, and now it's one of the recurring characters I play. Where I drew the line and got frustrated was when you started attacking other Ash Walkers. Hunting and killing is the purpose of playing that role, and very nearly killing the other members of your tribe because you didn't feel like doing that that round is unacceptable. I'll add that while you didn't put me into crit or kill me, you very nearly did several times, and it was only my constant movement and quick use of medkits and survival pens that kept me alive. Every time I tried to stop moving to say something you would continue attacking me, and I can guarantee you would've put me into crit had I given you the chance. Talk about roleplay, huh?

Roleplay IS a huge part of this game. It can make some truly memorable and fantastic rounds. But picking a hostile, combat-oriented ghost role and getting upset when other people don't want to play nice with it is a little misdirected. If you want to make friends with miners, go play the free golems, or play the plant people, or really any other role asides from the one that's meant solely to get into fights with the humans and the fauna. If you do decide to break the paradigm and play a friendly Ash Walker, don't get hostile with the people who are playing it as it's intended.

While lavaland ghost role policy is somewhat unclear, it's blatantly obvious that you're a hunter-gatherer society and meant to be hostile to the off-worlders. They're not a team antag in the same sense as cult or revs, because they're a secondary role that's not necessary for round progression. That being said, Rule 1 still applies, and like any ghost role, being shitty to the other members of your group without good cause (such as pod people and golems killing each other, or syndicate bioweapons specialists blowing up the base for no reason) is never cool. I think the biggest thing here wasn't that "STP hates roleplay", it was that you chose a tribal, combat-oriented role that pretty clearly outlines your goals and your enemies, and within 20 some-odd minutes had apparently completely switched sides and were willing to kill your teammates instead of the humans you're meant to sacrifice.

[Dr_bee]

Well I guess that explains why it was even an interaction worth of admin intervention in the first place. remember sweaterkittens I didnt actually kill you, and the miner had actually given us sacrifices. The whole reason I seemed to have been banned was because I wasnt roleplaying "correctly". Rule 1 last I checked applied to being a dick without in character motivation and I feel I have explained my motivation rather well. would a typical player had even adminhelped this player interaction Sweaterkittens? the knowlege that the person I was attacking was a admin now makes me feel I was only banned for attacking an admin. Shouldnt roleplay situations be solved in character unless they involve an unjust player death or serious disruption of a round? shoudnt the other ashwalker simply have fought back against the traitorous ashwalker and had an interesting player interaction instead of resorting to adminhelping because they didnt like how the other player was roleplaying?

[Saegrimr]

Well I guess that explains why it was even an interaction worth of admin intervention in the first place.
the knowlege that the person I was attacking was a admin now makes me feel I was only banned for attacking an admin.

Well that's one way to get your claim thrown out.

[Krusvik]

would a typical player had even adminhelped this player interaction Sweaterkittens? the knowlege that the person I was attacking was a admin now makes me feel I was only banned for attacking an admin

Now you're just being bitter and salty.

Don't use ghost roles to attack other ghost roles. It's that simple.

[onleavedontatme]

For what it's worth I don't think siding with humans after they saved your life is grief. Ghost roles are disposable and meant to tell stories and their entire rules set based arouns vague "you're probably valid but try and rp"

Ash walkers are definitely supposed to start off hostile but I think it kills off potential stories to not let them ever change allegiances.

[Dr_bee]

would a typical player had even adminhelped this player interaction Sweaterkittens? the knowlege that the person I was attacking was a admin now makes me feel I was only banned for attacking an admin

Now you're just being bitter and salty.

Don't use ghost roles to attack other ghost roles. It's that simple.

Yes I am salty but I feel that some saltiness is justified here. look at it this way, if a staff assistant had their life saved by a traitor and then saw security beating said traitor to death, would he have been banned for attempting to fight off security and save the traitor's life? If ghostroles arent allowed to have some conflict among themselves what is the point of even having them be played by players in the first place?

For what it's worth I don't think siding with humans after they saved your life is grief. Ghost roles are disposable and meant to tell stories and their entire rules set based arouns vague "you're probably valid but try and rp"

Ash walkers are definitely supposed to start off hostile but I think it kills off potential stories to not let them ever change allegiances.

It doesnt help that the rule regarding ghost roles are vague as hell. Ashwalkers especially. Having something concrete on the wiki regarding ghostrole behavior besides "dont be a dick" which is subjective as hell would really help limit some of the salt pouring out of me at the moment.

[onleavedontatme]

It wasn't meant to be concrete, because I was hoping for EMERGENT GAMEPLAY and diplomacy and backstabbing with the benefit of throwaway lives instead of the formulaic "is this guy valid" you see in station interactions.

Your situation is the exact kind of thing I was hoping to see, so I'm a bit sad that it ended in a ban, but I don't make the rules anymore.

[Jembo]

If a player saved your life, and you decided to repay that kind act by keeping them from getting gibbed? I hardly see how this isn't an IC issue, people need to stop getting so salty that people don't play exactly the same way they do. The fact that this even got adminhelped is a joke.

[D&B]

Except you're missing the ban reason entirely.

It's one thing to attack an ashwalker to drive them off, a whole another to keep hunting the same one while they try to de escalate and ask what's going on. The guy was not banned for roleplaying, he was banned for being relentless and failing to solve things icly. And even so this is mostly mounting on the "don't attack your fellow ghost role" precedent.

[Shaps-cloud]

would a typical player had even adminhelped this player interaction Sweaterkittens? the knowlege that the person I was attacking was a admin now makes me feel I was only banned for attacking an admin

Now you're just being bitter and salty.

Don't use ghost roles to attack other ghost roles. It's that simple.

Posting under the Anon amendment

A completely organic situation where two people of different factions come together and become friendly towards each other, then watch each other's backs when someone else comes along and initiates conflict is somehow bad RP? Moreso, you're ruling that someone who started a conflict, was given a chance to stop what they were doing but kept doing it anyway, and apparently didn't even get critted is allowed to adminhelp and get whoever they're having a legitimate IC conflict with banned because they don't like them? People within a tribe can have conflict with each other and fight with each other if they disagree on things, neither side in this arrangement was even so much as critted, and the attacker here had several chances to stop what they were doing or solve their IC conflict in some other ways. If you really want to rule that ash walkers MUST play a CERTAIN WAY or GET BANNED, and any deviations from your defined murderscript is liable to get you kicked out of the server, you'll reap what you sow and end up banning anyone who dares to mix things up, while keeping only the people who artfully toe the line and play only for clearcut valids.

Furthermore, insulting players and brushing off their attempts to understand why they were banned as "you're just salty" is flying directly in the face of the head admin's job to deliver unbiased and concise opinions on appeals and complaints.

I'll chime in here because I was the Ash Walker butchering the miners.

The point here is that Ash Walkers exist to hunt and kill. You're playing a predator. If you choose not to attack the miners, whatever. If they don't attack you and you get all buddy'd up to them, fine. Hell, one of my favorite rounds as an Ash Walker involved meeting a friendly scientist who I had some absolutely fantastic interaction with, and now it's one of the recurring characters I play. Where I drew the line and got frustrated was when you started attacking other Ash Walkers. Hunting and killing is the purpose of playing that role, and very nearly killing the other members of your tribe because you didn't feel like doing that that round is unacceptable. I'll add that while you didn't put me into crit or kill me, you very nearly did several times, and it was only my constant movement and quick use of medkits and survival pens that kept me alive. Every time I tried to stop moving to say something you would continue attacking me, and I can guarantee you would've put me into crit had I given you the chance. Talk about roleplay, huh?

Roleplay IS a huge part of this game. It can make some truly memorable and fantastic rounds. But picking a hostile, combat-oriented ghost role and getting upset when other people don't want to play nice with it is a little misdirected. If you want to make friends with miners, go play the free golems, or play the plant people, or really any other role asides from the one that's meant solely to get into fights with the humans and the fauna. If you do decide to break the paradigm and play a friendly Ash Walker, don't get hostile with the people who are playing it as it's intended.

While lavaland ghost role policy is somewhat unclear, it's blatantly obvious that you're a hunter-gatherer society and meant to be hostile to the off-worlders. They're not a team antag in the same sense as cult or revs, because they're a secondary role that's not necessary for round progression. That being said, Rule 1 still applies, and like any ghost role, being shitty to the other members of your group without good cause (such as pod people and golems killing each other, or syndicate bioweapons specialists blowing up the base for no reason) is never cool. I think the biggest thing here wasn't that "STP hates roleplay", it was that you chose a tribal, combat-oriented role that pretty clearly outlines your goals and your enemies, and within 20 some-odd minutes had apparently completely switched sides and were willing to kill your teammates instead of the humans you're meant to sacrifice.

1. The person who was directly involved with ahelping the situation and seeking the ban should not be lecturing the person they wanted banned or using their admin power to deliver official interpretation on their action
2. Your "official" interpretation of what ash walkers should be doing is directly contrary to the person who added them's goals for lavaland, which was to create more sources of uncertainty and conflict for people to experience, and was explicitly supposed to avoid black and white "click this person for any reason and you get banned" situations like this

At the end of the day, two people in ghost roles had an IC conflict, no one died, one of them was an admin, the other one got banned. Dr_bee's point here is 100% spot on and should be the philosophy for admins handling any situation in a game like SS13.

Shouldnt roleplay situations be solved in character unless they involve an unjust player death or serious disruption of a round? shoudnt the other ashwalker simply have fought back against the traitorous ashwalker and had an interesting player interaction instead of resorting to adminhelping because they didnt like how the other player was roleplaying?

Why are you removing someone who is clearly interested in roleplaying and not only took the time to construct clear justifications and reasoning for his actions IC, but also took the time to come register and plead his case on the forums from the server? Aren't bans supposed to be for people worsening the server?

[Jembo]

I disagree

I think the biggest thing here wasn't that "STP hates roleplay", it was that you chose a tribal, combat-oriented role that pretty clearly outlines your goals and your enemies, and within 20 some-odd minutes had apparently completely switched sides and were willing to kill your teammates instead of the humans you're meant to sacrifice.

We don't ban traitors for murderboning and ignoring objectives, this shouldn't really be a bannable offence. It's pretty apparent the reason for this ban was for not playing the game how I want you to. Also driving them off? Not attacking your fellow ghost roles? Sometimes players have disagreements that come to blows. That's why IC issue exists, I'd love to see full logs of the round admin chatter included.

[D&B]

We don't ban traitors for murderboning but they do get fucked with oocly and iicly so claiming that such a thing is ignored is not really a fair comparison.

[Sweaterkittens]

I'm kind of appalled at some of the accusations here, so I'll try to address then reasonably.

@DrBee
If you think this had anything to do with me being an admin, you're sorely mistaken. I don't believe I've ever interacted with Sometinyprick before this. It's not like I got my "buddy" to get my back and ban you out of spite. I've been admin for a week. Additionally, I was deadminned during this whole ordeal. In this interaction I was just another player who happens to be an admin.

I will add that based on what I saw in game and here, I think your definition of an "interesting player interaction" and "roleplay" are quite different from mine. I don't find you attacking another Ash Walker, yelling "STOP" and "FRIEND" in between trying to kill me is very fun "roleplay". Nor is having one interaction with a miner who doesn't feel like fighting and then decreeing that no one is allowed to attack the miners anymore. What I saw in game wasn't emergent gameplay or roleplaying - What I saw was you feeling like switching sides and starting fights with the other Ash Walkers because a miner hadn't immediately valid'd you, and then falling back on "roleplay" when someone disagreed, and then starting a fight with them. The only reason it didn't end in someone getting critted or killed is because I stopped trying to talk to you (and roleplay) because you stood there attacking me whenever I stopped moving. And I didn't want to attack you because you were another Ash Walker.


@Shaps
I am not lecturing DrBee or using my admin power to deliver an official interpretation of the situation, and frankly I'm insulted that you think I am. Go ahead and and insert "I think" or "I feel as though" before every one of my sentences if it helps you see that I'm trying to deliver my interpretation of the situation and why I feel as though he was in the wrong. If my tone was misleading you, it's because I'm pretty irritated at the assumption that I ahelped because I don't like roleplaying.

And if my interpretation of what Ash Walkers should be doing is contrary to the intentions the creator had, maybe when you spawn as one, a big message shouldn't pop up that tells you that you're supposed to be doing exactly what I said, which is hunting and killing, and being hostile towards the miners with the end goal of sacrificing all of your kills. I'm going off of the brief you're given when you spawn as the ghost role, not conjuring up some pseudo-official interpretation just because I've been an admin for a week. I thought you knew me better than that.

[Dr_bee]

I will add that based on what I saw in game and here, I think your definition of an "interesting player interaction" and "roleplay" are quite different from mine. I don't find you attacking another Ash Walker, yelling "STOP" and "FRIEND" in between trying to kill me is very fun "roleplay". Nor is having one interaction with a miner who doesn't feel like fighting and then decreeing that no one is allowed to attack the miners anymore. What I saw in game wasn't emergent gameplay or roleplaying - What I saw was you feeling like switching sides and starting fights with the other Ash Walkers because a miner hadn't immediately valid'd you, and then falling back on "roleplay" when someone disagreed, and then starting a fight with them. The only reason it didn't end in someone getting critted or killed is because I stopped trying to talk to you (and roleplay) because you stood there attacking me whenever I stopped moving. And I didn't want to attack you because you were another Ash Walker.

I only started a fight with you for one, not any other ashwalker, and for a good period of time, you were the only ashwalker attacking miners. Is it any different that one ashwalker decrees that miners should die and another decrees that they shouldnt? There was actual interaction between me and the miners, along with another ashwalker, before you even decided to hatch out of an egg. Instead of handling something in character you chose to adminhelp the interaction. and do not think that just because you are deadminned during a round means that you adminhelping doesnt carry extra weight with other admins, you dont magically stop having authority because you cant press buttons in the round.

You took, what should have been an in-character conflict, and not even a deadly one at that, and took it out of character and into the hands of the administration.
To say "well I was deadminned, so it doesnt count" is rather disingenuous.

Are you folks understanding why I am a tad salty here? I didnt even kill anyone, and I did what was probably the best in character action and self exiled after it became clear that the other ashwalkers wanted to go hostile too, and yet I was still banned from the role for it.

[Shaps-cloud]

Maybe it's wrong to call this an active admin conspiracy, but the fact that the only admin responses to the thread (including a headmin) that weren't from kor have been stonewalling non-answers to his legitimate questions doesn't show good faith in giving him a fair chance

[Okand37]

As this seems to have spiraled disappointingly off topic and the banning admin has not yet made a reply, I'll go ahead and comment on this!

With the information provided in the individual's side of the story, I must say I don't entirely agree with the ban reasoning. Yes, in a way, ash walkers, golems, and other such lavaland creatures are considered 'team antagonists'-but the rules of lavaland are kept loosely together for a reason. I don't encourage ash walkers, golems, or similar roles to turn on eachother out of the blue, but lavaland is supposed to have more relation and tension rules in terms of relationships opposed to more strict, hard rules. I personally like the idea of the first generation of ashwalkers mending relationships with miners, then a new generation bent on aggression being bred, causing tensions between the two generations of ashwalkers to brew and swell. With appropriate reasoning and escalation that is said above, in the context provided, I believe this is an acceptable course of action and find the ban to be unnecessary.

Secondly, I'd like to comment that devolving to topics of the reasoning as to why you were banned or why who replied what as a reason of 'admin conspiracy' tends to brew unwanted tension and aggravation between both parties and is wholesomely unnecessary. I do not believe any admin would ban an individual who did not break the rules on bequest of another in the context provided above, and would imagine any individual who would do such a thing would receive a stern warning or punishment, depending on the offense and repetition of it.

However, as we don't have the other side of the story nor context from the banning admin, and only have the context of the banned individual I'd like to wait to see if the banning admin will provide context and reasoning as to why they placed this ban before a decision is made.

Thank you for your continued patience!

[Dr_bee]

Secondly, I'd like to comment that devolving to topics of the reasoning as to why you were banned or why who replied what as a reason of 'admin conspiracy' tends to brew unwanted tension and aggravation between both parties and is wholesomely unnecessary. I do not believe any admin would ban an individual who did not break the rules on bequest of another in the context provided above, and would imagine any individual who would do such a thing would receive a stern warning or punishment, depending on the offense and repetition of it.

I admit, while I didnt intend it I did, in my saltiness I made it look like this was an active "admin conspiracy" with my earlier post, that I apologize for. However the appearance of admin impropriety is not a good thing, even if it doesnt exist, because it erodes the trust the community has for its moderators. That being said, That discussion is probably better suited for an Policy Discussion thread, I may consider making it.

[Okand37]

In the event that an admin is playing, they are equal to a player and are expected to be treated as such and are by no means devoid of having to follow the rules. Interpretation is an important factor, and making a mountain out of a mole hill and claiming it as a reason to erode the trust between players and administrators is a problem of yourself and said individuals, not the administration team. I would like to note that the banning admin has been otherwise absent for a number of months, and has only just returned as a trialadmin and they may still be learning some newly made or reformed policy regarding such situations. Please don't make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Regardless of this, the banning admin has-as said-been informed and will respond when they are available. Your continued patience is appreciated and thanked!

[bandit]

OK, so, this thread has resulted in some drama and some misplaced policy discussion and some hurt feelings, all of which I feel like could have been avoided if someone took the time to read the actual logs.

I do not agree that ashwalkers should never attack other ashwalkers. I think it's possible for ashwalkers to have RP with humans, I think it potentially opens up interesting avenues of play, and I'm generally in favor of playstyles that aren't "kill first, ask questions never." I'm not posting here as part of some "admin conspiracy." That said, I don't see the RP here that has been floated. I think it's a theoretical discussion that has very little to do with what happened in the round.

These are, as far as I can tell, the full logs. Apologies if I left anything out, it's not intentional, this is just a bitch to collate for reasons that will become apparent.

(Huge chunk of logs removed in light of context below)

At 12:58:38 Zish starts attacking another miner and this is when Deesh starts attacking Zish back, pretty much immediately, with no retaliation.

Spoiler:

[12:58:32]SAY: Deesh-Liurz/drbee : Rude
[12:58:38]ATTACK: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) hit Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) with the spear (NEWHP: 76)(107,54,5)
[12:58:40]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) hit Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with the spear (NEWHP: 88.8)(102,53,5)
[12:58:43]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) shaked Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) (NEWHP: 88.8)(101,56,5)
[12:58:48]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) attacked Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with pickaxe(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 82.8)(107,51,5)
[12:58:48]SAY: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)/sweaterkittens : SSStop
[12:58:49]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) attacked Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with pickaxe(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 76.8)(107,47,5)
[12:58:49]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : Miner
[12:58:53]SAY: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)/sweaterkittens : They are the enemy
[12:58:53]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) attacked Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with pickaxe(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 70.8)(112,54,5)
[12:58:58]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : There isss a pile of clothesss in front of your bassse
[12:59:01]ATTACK: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) hit Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) with the spear (NEWHP: 28)(99,57,5)
[12:59:02]ATTACK: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) disarmed Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) (NEWHP: 28)(99,57,5)
[12:59:02]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : Looksss like uh
[12:59:02]SAY: Deesh-Liurz/drbee : You are a prick
[12:59:03]ATTACK: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) attacked Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) with survival knife(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 19)(99,57,5)
[12:59:05]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : NO
[12:59:08]ATTACK: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) disarmed Deesh-Liurz(drbee) (NEWHP: 100)(100,55,5)
[12:59:24]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) attacked Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) with spear(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -8.5)(95,64,5)
[12:59:28]ADMIN: HELP: SweaterKittens/(Zish-Beek): Ash walker attacking other ash walkers for doing their job. It's Deesh Liurz - heard by 0 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[12:59:20]ATTACK: Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) injected Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) with the survival medipen(Salbutamol, Leporazine, Tricordrazine, Epinephrine, Nanites and Omnizine) (NEWHP: 5)(95,64,5)
[12:59:30]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) shaked Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) (NEWHP: 10)(95,64,5)
[12:59:31]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) shaked Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) (NEWHP: 10.5)(95,64,5)
[12:59:35]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) attacked Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with spear(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 65.8)(95,65,5)
[12:59:40]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) hit Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with the pickaxe (NEWHP: 61.8)(99,57,5)
[12:59:41]SAY: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)/sweaterkittens : SSStop
[12:59:49]SAY: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)/sweaterkittens : SSStop helping the offworldersss
[12:59:58]SAY: Deesh-Liurz/drbee : If he doesssnt kill tendrilsss I dont give a fuck

(Logs end here because it's close to the end of the fight, a traitor started eswording someone at this point making these logs even more of a bitch to dive through and I think by now you get the idea.)

Based on what I see here, I don't see evidence of the kind of RP that "makes interesting stories." I do see evidence of using knowledge from past lives, though, and of pretty much jumping straight to attacking one's fellow ashwalker. Logs of course do not tell the whole story, but they're what I have to work off. Again, I am all for RP. But if you are going to do something as drastically against the spirit of a ghost role as attacking your fellow comrades, you should probably RP it out more than this, and do it on your current character.

[Dr_bee]

So the missing piece of the story here is that it seems like drbee played two ashwalkers. The first was named Azeez-Rana, and the miners did indeed help him out against some mobs. I'm not posting the full logs of this because this is already gonna be long but here's the basic idea:

Spoiler:

12:52:02]ATTACK: Azeez-Rana(drbee) attacked legion with spear (Wielded)(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 0)
[12:52:07]ATTACK: legion attacked Azeez-Rana(drbee) (NEWHP: 9)(85,70,5)
[12:52:23]ATTACK: Revian Kay(zelus) shot legion with the kinetic force (NEWHP: 5)(81,74,5)
[12:52:36]ATTACK: Revian Kay(zelus) shot legion with the kinetic force (NEWHP: 0)

The first ashwalker didnt meet the miners at all If I recall correctly, and was killed. the second was the first to encounter the miners.

At 12:52 Azeez-Rana died, and drbee spawned as a new ashwalker, Deesh-Liurz. This is relevant because it means all the "RP" above, scant as it is, is completely irrelevant as he is a new character. Clean slate. Anyway, Deesh didn't say anything until sweaterkittens' character, Zish-Beek, spawned. If anything it was the other ashwalker who displayed the RP although again, not really that much:

Spoiler:

[12:55:04]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : I'm deaf for sssome reassson, outlander
[12:55:49]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : Tell him we want medicine

That was me, meena, and one miner talking during an ash storm without any violence.

Around 12:55 Zish-Beek started fighting some of the miners, and won. Again I'm not gonna post the full logs of this but a sample:

Spoiler:

[12:54:58]ATTACK: Zish-Beek(sweaterkittens) hit Revian Kay(zelus) with the spear (NEWHP: 74)(74,38,5)
[12:55:16]ATTACK: Zish-Beek(sweaterkittens) attacked Revian Kay(zelus) with pickaxe(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 60)(67,37,5)
[12:55:17]ATTACK: Zish-Beek(sweaterkittens) attacked Revian Kay(zelus) with pickaxe(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 54)(68,37,5)
[12:55:18]ATTACK: Zish-Beek(sweaterkittens) attacked Revian Kay(zelus) with pickaxe(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 45)(68,38,5)
[12:55:18]ATTACK: Revian Kay(zelus) shot Zish-Beek(sweaterkittens) with the kinetic force (NEWHP: 60)(68,37,5)
[12:55:42]ATTACK: Zish-Beek(sweaterkittens) attacked Sergei Dragovich(gondola98) with pickaxe(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -92.3333)(68,38,5)
[12:55:43]ATTACK: Zish-Beek(sweaterkittens) attacked Sergei Dragovich(gondola98) with pickaxe(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -108)(68,38,5)

You are assuming I had this information, I didnt, The first time I actually saw Zish attack a miner I retaliated. dont assume because the log has the information that the player does.

Revian and Sergei died at this point, but Deesh-Liurz doesn't seem to have any objections to killing these guys yet. Zish starts stripping their stuff and I guess this is the "idle chit-chat" referred to:

Spoiler:

[12:56:03]SAY: Deesh-Liurz/drbee : We cant ussse KAsss
[12:56:06]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : We can't ussse them
[12:56:10]SAY: Deesh-Liurz/drbee : Nope
[12:56:16]SAY: Deesh-Liurz/drbee : Not without trigger modification
[12:56:18]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : We need a modified trigger guard
[12:56:20]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : Ye
[12:56:35]EMOTE: gustavguns/(Meena-Shaleez) : <b>Meena-Shaleez</b> shows off his 4 fingered claw
[12:56:44]SAY: Deesh-Liurz/drbee : No thumbsss sssucksss
[12:57:02]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : Opposssable thumbsss are overrated
[12:57:18]SAY: Deesh-Liurz/drbee : I wasss sssaving for the axe but ok

The miner proceeded to give me bone armor at this point. he also offered to give us Kinetic accelerators. You seem to cut that part out.

It's not in the logs but something happened between 12:57 and 12:58 to piss Deesh off I guess. At 12:58:38 Zish starts attacking another miner and this is when Deesh starts attacking Zish back, pretty much immediately, with no retaliation.

Spoiler:

[12:58:32]SAY: Deesh-Liurz/drbee : Rude
[12:58:38]ATTACK: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) hit Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) with the spear (NEWHP: 76)(107,54,5)
[12:58:40]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) hit Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with the spear (NEWHP: 88.8)(102,53,5)
[12:58:43]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) shaked Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) (NEWHP: 88.8)(101,56,5)
[12:58:48]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) attacked Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with pickaxe(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 82.8)(107,51,5)
[12:58:48]SAY: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)/sweaterkittens : SSStop
[12:58:49]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) attacked Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with pickaxe(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 76.8)(107,47,5)
[12:58:49]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : Miner
[12:58:53]SAY: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)/sweaterkittens : They are the enemy
[12:58:53]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) attacked Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with pickaxe(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 70.8)(112,54,5)
[12:58:58]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : There isss a pile of clothesss in front of your bassse
[12:59:01]ATTACK: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) hit Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) with the spear (NEWHP: 28)(99,57,5)
[12:59:02]ATTACK: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) disarmed Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) (NEWHP: 28)(99,57,5)
[12:59:02]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : Looksss like uh
[12:59:02]SAY: Deesh-Liurz/drbee : You are a prick
[12:59:03]ATTACK: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) attacked Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) with survival knife(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 19)(99,57,5)
[12:59:05]SAY: Meena-Shaleez/gustavguns : NO
[12:59:08]ATTACK: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) disarmed Deesh-Liurz(drbee) (NEWHP: 100)(100,55,5)
[12:59:24]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) attacked Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) with spear(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -8.5)(95,64,5)
[12:59:28]ADMIN: HELP: SweaterKittens/(Zish-Beek): Ash walker attacking other ash walkers for doing their job. It's Deesh Liurz - heard by 0 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[12:59:20]ATTACK: Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) injected Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) with the survival medipen(Salbutamol, Leporazine, Tricordrazine, Epinephrine, Nanites and Omnizine) (NEWHP: 5)(95,64,5)
[12:59:30]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) shaked Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) (NEWHP: 10)(95,64,5)
[12:59:31]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) shaked Buck Kusnetsov(rognaro) (NEWHP: 10.5)(95,64,5)
[12:59:35]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) attacked Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with spear(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 65.8)(95,65,5)
[12:59:40]ATTACK: Deesh-Liurz(drbee) hit Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)(sweaterkittens) with the pickaxe (NEWHP: 61.8)(99,57,5)
[12:59:41]SAY: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)/sweaterkittens : SSStop
[12:59:49]SAY: Zish-Beek (as Revian Kay)/sweaterkittens : SSStop helping the offworldersss
[12:59:58]SAY: Deesh-Liurz/drbee : If he doesssnt kill tendrilsss I dont give a fuck

(Logs end here because it's close to the end of the fight, a traitor started eswording someone at this point making these logs even more of a bitch to dive through and I think by now you get the idea.)

That was the extent of the combat. no critting, no killing of other ashwalkers, later Buck was killed, and I then stole his corpse and dragged it to the station.

Based on what I see here, I don't see evidence of the kind of RP that "makes interesting stories." I do see evidence of using knowledge from past lives, though, and of pretty much jumping straight to attacking one's fellow ashwalker. Logs of course do not tell the whole story, but they're what I have to work off. Again, I am all for RP. But if you are going to do something as drastically against the spirit of a ghost role as attacking your fellow comrades, you should probably RP it out more than this, and do it on your current character.

Logs certainly dont tell the entire story, and if you are expecting a long drawn out conversation while someone is stabbing someone else then you are seriously overestimating people's ability to type.
The first ashwalker never even met the miners and died to a legion, the second met the miners, who gave him the corpses and then crafted armor for him and offered advanced technology in trade for items, which you can see we declined.

[bandit]

OK, point taken on the former ashwalker, and on missing the conversation from the second guy ("[12:55:58]SAY: Buck Kusnetsov/Rognaro : I'll give you KAs" and such), as I said before this was a bitch to collate and anything left out was not intentional.

That said, you didn't even make an attempt to explain the situation to Sweaterkittens' ashwalker -- unless I missed something the Deesh saylogs were literally everything you said up to the point of the ahelp. You went straight to attacking them when they weren't retaliating and were just doing what the message they received upon spawning as ashwalker said to do. Even if you were just two random assistants, attacking someone repeatedly, pretty much wordlessly, who didn't retaliate would be kind of a dick move. It's more so when there's a loose framework for how ashwalkers are supposed to be aligned.

This is what people are getting at in the thread. RP is great. Emergent play is great. Forming bonds is great. But RP requires, well, actual RP, and if you want to claim you're doing it then you're going to have to, at some point, approach the realm of "a long drawn-out conversation," or at least any conversation at all.

[Dr_bee]

OK, point taken on the former ashwalker, and on missing the conversation from the second guy ("[12:55:58]SAY: Buck Kusnetsov/Rognaro : I'll give you KAs" and such), as I said before this was a bitch to collate and anything left out was not intentional.

That said, you didn't even make an attempt to explain the situation to Sweaterkittens' ashwalker -- unless I missed something the Deesh saylogs were literally everything you said up to the point of the ahelp. You went straight to attacking them when they weren't retaliating and were just doing what the message they received upon spawning as ashwalker said to do. Even if you were just two random assistants, attacking someone repeatedly, pretty much wordlessly, who didn't retaliate would be kind of a dick move. It's more so when there's a loose framework for how ashwalkers are supposed to be aligned.

This is what people are getting at in the thread. RP is great. Emergent play is great. Forming bonds is great. But RP requires, well, actual RP, and if you want to claim you're doing it then you're going to have to, at some point, approach the realm of "a long drawn-out conversation," or at least any conversation at all.

Attempting to fully explain a situation when people start off by stabbing each other is hard, also actions count as roleplay and not just conversation, I only attacked after it was clear that Sweaterkittens' ashwalker was using lethal force on a friendly, and responded in kind, and then stopped when it was clear that the threat to the friend was over. poor communication is expected when things are tense. The bar you are placing on "acceptable" RP is rather high, and you are also disregarding sweaterkittens actions in relation to mine, what should I have done when sweaterkittens kept stabbing the man who gave me armor and offered me weapons? I feel fighting back and stopping when it was clear that they were no longer a threat was the right thing to do.

Anyway I explained my reasoning to hell and back. This entire situation, if replicated on station. probably would have gotten a "IC issue" response from an admin.

[bandit]

Some options as to what you could have done:

1. Telling them to stop, politely
2. Telling them to stop, rudely
3. Explaining the situation, ever ("You are a prick" doesn't cut it here)
4. Disarming them before attacking
5. Dragging the miner out of the way
6. Attempting to get between them and the miner
7. Fleeing
8. Waiting until the miner was dead/in crit, then dragging them back to the station to clone/heal them, like you did afterward

Your immediate response:

0. Immediately attack back, do not RP, do not speak, do not collect $200

This is the source of the ghost/lavaland ban. Things were tense because you made them tense by immediately attacking. The fact that no one died has been acknowledged by the lack of a server ban. No deaths = no ban. However, ghost roles tend to come with unique expectations. No one gets killed when a drone decides to interact with a human, or a xenobiology golem starts referring to their past existence. But they are not what those roles are meant for. It's not comparable to on-station roles because on-station roles do not have these expectations or framework.

Similarly, ashwalkers are generally not meant to attack fellow ashwalkers for doing their "job." There can be exceptions. But if you want to RP out an unusual exception, you have to RP it out, and attacking your ashwalker buddies is sufficiently out of bounds and dickish to the other ashwalkers that it requires a decent amount of RPing out. This probably involves more than five minutes of interaction with humans. It almost certainly involves talking more than you did. It definitely doesn't involve wordless pickaxing. If you want to jump straight to attacking, that's a playstyle /tg/station certainly has a lot of, but it means that you can't claim you were "just RPing" later on.

[Sometinyprick]

To be honest I feel like a bit of hypocrite and this ban is far too long for what you did, I feel like my initial reasoning was just plain wrong and really it's something I don't agree with myself. Bgo did make a good point however about not really interacting with the tribe attacking the miner but I feel that's something that needs to be explained and doesn't really warrant a two week ban. So yeah I will remove this ban, I apologize for any inconvenience it may have caused but I suggest you do what bgo said when doing something like this happens again, make sure you try to reason with your fellow ash walkers before going straight to beating them into crit.

[TehSteveo]

This thread has ran its course. The ban was overturned by the original banning admin; as such it's considered resolved.

If anyone wants so discuss Ashwalkers further there is a thread in policy discussion