[irishwristwatch0] Meme permaban ahoy

[Oldman Robustin]

Character Name: Oldman Robustin
BYOND: ForcefulCJS
Admin: Irishwristwatch0

Reason: You obviously hate the game/players/admins so let me do you a favor

Appeal: Really? You can't distinguish between someone who cares about the direction of the game versus the legions of shitposters who don't even pretend to care?

That's all I have to say. I write a lot of critique about this game because I love it. I wouldn't be making PR's if I hated the game, nor would I offer lengthy posts about where it can be improved. If that somehow offends you, then maybe I'm not the one who needs a ban.

[Thunder11]

Please use the proper format.

[IrishWristWatch0]

Not a meme ban. Strictly Rule 0. Your constant negative attitude and passive aggressive comments towards everything to get people to somehow see your point about everything is causing an overall negative impact on the community.

[iamgoofball]

He doesn't hate the game, the players, or the admins. Irish is wrong.

He hates the way the game has developed. Since when do we ban people for expressing they don't like the direction a game is going? Since when do we silence opposing views?

I hate playing this game unless I have to, because it's simply not fun anymore. Yet I develop for it, because I still care about the direction. I'll sit down and play rounds when testing out new features with players, but that's out of respect for the players because I should at least be present when my code is being shoved in their faces forcefully.

When we turn people away at the github for expressing their views on how they feel the design/community/adminning should go, and send them to post it here, we expect people to NOT get banned for disagreeing with the majority opinion.

This, however, is likely the point where admins are just going to notedrop, change the it to "oh sorry it's actually cuz you have a lot of notes and this was just the straw that broke the camel's back", and ignore everything here. Ah well. I got my two cents in at least.

[iamgoofball]

And another thing, if Oldman's attitude is the bar where anything at or below it will get you banned, why haven't we banned a shitton more people? We have players that tell everyone to kill themselves, post unironic racist shit, and just screech "UGH REVERT X ITS SHIT" and refuse to explain WHY.

Oldman doesn't tell people to kill themselves. He doesn't act like a KKK member. He doesn't screech "UGH REVERT X ITS SHIT" without at least providing an explanation as to WHY it's shit, and hopefully a way to fix it to be less shit.

[John_Oxford]

Ten dollars all of these posts get deleted because a certain admin is to afraid of what the community has to say about someone who has played a big part IN THE COMMUNITY for the past three years.

I sincerely and entirely agree with the principle that old man was banned because a select group of people are to sensitive to accept criticism on choices that not only the coding team made, but the admin team in general. There is absolutely no precedent for this ban, yet its going to stick once more because who needs admin accountability when all of the admins are basically the same person to begin with. Old man has expressed very logical and thought out arguments against features and choices people have made, yet some how the entire group of you seem to be way to far into the "YOU CAN'T SAY MEAN THINGS TO ME" realm. Literally, did you just not think about what you we're doing and banned him because you thought "oh yeah no one will care its just old man".

If your in a position of power, i advise you grow up. Honestly this is the most petty biased ban slapped full of bullshit that i have ever seen in my entire time of playing on this server, so much so to even warrant a post from me that is actually sincere and -not- a oxford meme.

[bandit]

I've said this in adminbus, but this is a bad ban. We literally just had an appeal (Reondin's) that was closed advising admins to warn people when they are on thin ice, instead of jumping straight to the ban out nowhere. This is a more extreme version of that. The only exceptions we've ever had are extreme dickery like stalking maintainers or encouraging suicide, and salty posts on the forums do not really rise/sink to that level.

now do you still think I'm metagrudging you

[Oldman Robustin]

Not a meme ban. Strictly Rule 0. Your constant negative attitude and passive aggressive comments towards everything to get people to somehow see your point about everything is causing an overall negative impact on the community.

Outside of 2 policy threads, where do you witness this "constant" negativity? If you are banning me for my OOC attitude, I've been more chill in OOC than I've been in years. Nobody has ever even hinted that my OOC attitude was out of line for current norms, nothing outrageous about me expressing joy/dismay/anger/amusement in OOC.

Is it feedback? I'm literally there fishing for ideas to make the game better in a positive fashion, with a good attitude. Have you even read my feedback threads?

Is it the policy forum? I've never been even hinted that policy forum had a... policy against aggressive posts. My threads there are thoughtful, I edit them when someone deems them to be too personal, they generate some reactions from the peanut gallery but the posts are hardly without merit, my silicon policy thread shows that our current administration can't agree about a fundamental aspect of asimov - that's exactly why we have a policy forum.

You claim to have made a judgment about my "overall impact on the community" but I have almost never seen you since I came back. I didn't even know you were still active. Did you really solicit the opinion from people who HAVE shared the most rounds with me since I came back? Kevinz? Sweaterkittens? Mimic?

If you were that concerned about my impact on the community, and you really cared about it, why didn't you reach out and contact me to discuss my changing things? You know I've never shied away from serious conversations, the fact you went for a shot-in-the-dark permaban instead suggests this is more about a personal dislike than a serious effort to improve the community.

Three-Four years ago there was a similar attempt to ban me. For those of you who remember me back then, I deserved a lot of the criticism I got since my playstyle back then was far more toxic. 1-2 years after that attempt to permaban me for my "overall impact" I won a free steam game at the end of the year for being one of the most pleasant characters to play with, my playstyle hasn't changed since then and today I make an even more concerted effort to roleplay and explore the more nuanced aspects of the game, yes I still powergame as a non-antag and murderbone as an antag sometimes but it's the exception, not the norm that it used to be. People had pointed to me as a model of how someone can improve as a player. That was from an era where I wouldn't go more than a couple weeks without a dire warning from an admin that I was on the verge of eating a big ban.

Now my IC behavior doesn't even seem to be at issue. I might be forgetting something but I don't think I've even been BWOINKED for bad behavior since I've come back. All quiet. Just a couple tense policy threads, but that's what policy is, or should be, for... and if there was something about my posts there that bothered you, I would've been more than willing to hear it. That's why I feel like this is a meme, it seems pretty clear you never wanted to improve my relationship, you just wanted me gone. For someone who's changed as much as I have, that's not fair at all.

[Qbopper]

I think this is a point where we need to decide if we're going to crack down on people acting in shitty ways, because we probably shouldn't flipflop about it.

Oldman was likely banned not for any reason goof said, but for the sheer volume of vitrol he puts out. It's perfectly fine to complain about things or disagree about whatever, but when that's the only thing you do, something should be done. Should it be a perma? Probably not, but something for sure should happen to get the point across that this is an unwelcome mentality.

Seriously, goof, this isn't a "censor dissent" ban, this is a "irish is tired of oldman being hateful all the time" ban. More than one person has taken issue with oldman on things that are not development related - his OOC/ahelp behaviour in perticular.

Be that as it may, oldman has a point in that last post, and we just had a discussion with my ban - we need to be approaching players BEFORE handing down bans and speaking to them about their behaviour. Obviously you can tell I'm not a fan of oldman in particular, but I think it's a bit strange we're having this discussion again so soon after my mistake.

Oxford, I don't think that's fair at all - you don't see the discussion about the bans, or anything else related. There's no need to start insulting the admin team.

[iamgoofball]

What is the flaw with a player that actively sees problems with the game and makes attempts to bring them to light and get them fixed? Should we ban people for posting too many issue reports in a week? It's perfectly fine to complain about bugs, but when that's the only thing you do, something should be done, right? Means we should ban them from the github because they report too many issues?

Are we going to ban reviewers for bringing up issues with the game now? It's all they do, pick apart games and highlight their flaws. It's perfectly fine to notice flaws and bring them up, but when that's the only thing you do, something should be done, right?

It's the same line of logic. And it's a dangerous one. I might even say it's a slippery slope. You know how I love those.

If the only thing he did was bring up issues with the game, then he wouldn't be appealing a ban to play the game. He plays the game because he enjoys it and cares about it. It's the same reason he posts all his threads and starts the discussions he starts. It's because he cares about the game and wants to improve it. And banning him for enjoying the game and wanting to see it be made better is downright insulting to the core.

[lzimann]

I am going to lock this for now until I decide how this is going to end up.

[lzimann]

Alright, I've talked with Forceful in irc about all of this. I am lifting this ban and hopefully we won't see any of what caused this ban again.