[daxyeen] kramperino - Undeserved Dayban

[Kramperino]

Byond account and character name: kramperino Vinny Pastramo

Banning admin: daxyeen

Ban type (What are you banned from?): Day Ban from /tg/ station

Ban reason and length: 'killed a security officer for tazing another head which they are metafriends with' ban expires 2018-04-11 16:53:56

Time ban was placed (including time zone): 3:04 AM 11/04/2018 AEST

Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Sybil

Your side of the story: So, me and the CE were trying to call the shuttle because the match had been going on for far too long, I hear over the radio that they're trying to break into the bridge, I rush over in my my mech and tell the security officer to stop, he goes into the bridge and starts tazing the CE. I thought that the CE might've been murdered so I switched to my laser cannon and shot him until he went crit, the CE proceeded to beat him with a stun baton. If I had time to drag him off to medbay I would've but I didn't. I left him there and rushed to the shuttle.

Why you think you should be unbanned: While we are meta-friends, that didn't influence my decision. I would've done the same thing if it was another head. We were both being attacked so I used the weapons I had at my disposal to stop the attack. People have been killed for far, far less so I really don't see why this particular example deserves a day-ban.

[Dax Dupont]

Someone on the same round stated they suspected you for meta-friending with the CE and you instantly murder a roundstart security officer for tazing him.

Even if it was JUST the tazing, don't instantly start killing security officers for tazing the CE.

I thought that the CE might've been murdered

This is also a lie because in your ahelp you specifically stated you murdered him because:
[16:49:05]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Kramperino/(Vinny Pastramo)->DaxYeen/(Flying Spaghetti Monster): I had reason to believe he was going to kill him
[16:49:21]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: DaxYeen/(Flying Spaghetti Monster)->Kramperino/(Vinny Pastramo): I don't see any lethal attacks in the logs
[16:49:46]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Kramperino/(Vinny Pastramo)->DaxYeen/(Flying Spaghetti Monster): I mean, I didn't couldn't read his mind but it seemed like he was going to use lethal force
[16:52:51]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Kramperino/(Vinny Pastramo)->DaxYeen/(Flying Spaghetti Monster): I murdered him because it looked very much like he was going to kill a head of staff

There's a note on your account that specifically states that you and him are "friends". I probably should've gotten the CE too but you were the one ahelped about.
Also giving your buddy all access is questionable at best.

[Kramperino]

"Someone on the same round stated they suspected you for meta-friending with the CE and you instantly murder a roundstart security officer for tazing him."

Roundstart? The shuttle was being called. I'm not sure what you mean here.

"Even if it was JUST the tazing, don't instantly start killing security officers for tazing the CE."

It wasn't my intention to murder him, just to stop the attack. He ended up dying but that wasn't my goal.

"This is also a lie because in your ahelp you specifically stated you murdered him because:"

Sorry, unclear wording. To rephrase, I thought the CE might have been killed by the security officer.

"Also giving your buddy all access is questionable at best."

He lost his ID so I gave him my spare. I was actually planning on changing his access back to Command and Engineering.

[Dax Dupont]

Roundstart security officer means started as security officer and not promoted to sec officer. Not the time this takes place.

Also, did you not take your disabler or did you not have a tazer of your own in the backpack? Your buddy had a stunbaton for instance.

[Kramperino]

I didn't have a taser, disabler or stunbaton in my backpack. Again, if I had had non-lethal equipment I would've used it.

EDIT: I had a baton in my backpack but I would've been stunned had I left my mech to use it.

[kevinz000]

What job were you and why did you say that "you and the CE wanted to end the /match/"?
I thought this would happen sometime from observing you two but not this soon. Count me surprised.

[Dax Dupont]

I didn't have a taser, disabler or stunbaton in my backpack. Again, if I had had non-lethal equipment I would've used it.

EDIT: I had a baton in my backpack but I would've been stunned had I left my mech to use it.

So you saw your friend being tasered and thus not murdered, since you knew you would get stunned, then used to decide to use lethals instead of asking what's going on?

What job were you and why did you say that "you and the CE wanted to end the /match/"?
I thought this would happen sometime from observing you two but not this soon. Count me surprised.

Captain in mech, unable to be tasered while in said mech.

[CitrusGender]

I don't exactly like quoting people like this, but it's ironically the only way to respond to people who divide posts into quotes.

"Someone on the same round stated they suspected you for meta-friending with the CE and you instantly murder a roundstart security officer for tazing him."

Roundstart? The shuttle was being called. I'm not sure what you mean here.

I think they mean that they were a security officer at the round start and thus was implanted and (for better or worse) you should have been known they at least had non-antagonistic intentions.

"Even if it was JUST the tazing, don't instantly start killing security officers for tazing the CE."

It wasn't my intention to murder him, just to stop the attack. He ended up dying but that wasn't my goal.

"This is also a lie because in your ahelp you specifically stated you murdered him because:"

Sorry, unclear wording. To rephrase, I thought the CE might have been killed by the security officer.

I'm including both of these quotes together because something about them doesn't make sense.
You think that the sec officer killed your friend but then the CE then kills the sec officer after you put them into crit?
I'm confused, how could this possibly happen if you thought they were dead?

Ultimately, the captain shouldn't really side with the CE in most situation when security is after them unless they have a particularly good IC reason. Still, I suppose it would make some sense that you're trying to call the shuttle and you're trying to back up the CE since they're being attacked.

Though, the problem with that is your reason for calling the shuttle is completely invalid. You should not call the shuttle "because the match had been going on for far too long" and, for someone suspected of being your friend, this just seems like you both doing something for little reason and then both of you killing people when they get in your way.

The note may need to be reworded if what he's saying about just critting them is correct.

[kevinz000]

Captains start with an egun. Has a stun function that can stunlock far longer than just taser stunshots. Where did that go? I'm also confused why you thought a sec officer would murder the CE.

Also metafriending is usually implied that you gain an in-game advantage from it.
People have friends outside of game. People 99% will have friends they make while playing the game.
We call it metafriending when they help each other with no IC justification for an unfair advantage.

[Kramperino]

I don't exactly like quoting people like this

Whoops

You think that the sec officer killed your friend but then the CE then kills the sec officer after you put them into crit?

I thought the security officer might have taken out a weapon and used it to kill the Chief Engineer. I'm bad at wording things properly.

I'm also confused why you thought a sec officer would murder the CE.

They were breaking into the bridge and tasing Heads of Staff?

Ultimately, the captain shouldn't really side with the CE in most situation when security is after them unless they have a particularly good IC reason

I would have absolutely sided with security if the CE had committed a crime. But he hadn't and from my point of view, people were trying to break into the bridge to arrest people for calling the shuttle.

Captains start with an egun. Has a stun function that can stunlock far longer than just taser stunshots.

I left it in my locker? I dunno, I just didn't take it.





Hope I cleared up any confusion in this post. I probably didn't but that's how it goes when you ban appeal at 4 AM.

[somerandomguy]

You think that the sec officer killed your friend but then the CE then kills the sec officer after you put them into crit?

I thought the security officer might have taken out a weapon and used it to kill the Chief Engineer. I'm bad at wording things properly.

I think what he means is he thought the officer would use lethals after arresting the CE. However, that would only really happen if the CE was proven traitorous or has committed a capital crime.

[Kramperino]

The security officer broke into the bridge and tried to apprehend the Chief Engineer and the captain for calling the shuttle so it was conceivable that he might have used lethals.

[Dax Dupont]

The security officer broke into the bridge and tried to apprehend the Chief Engineer and the captain for calling the shuttle so it was conceivable that he might have used lethals.

But he didn't use lethals. He could've, especially at you firing at him in the mech if was intending to use them.

[Kramperino]

What I saw was a man break into the bridge and try to take down heads of staff. For all I knew he could've, upon stunning the CE, taken out a knife and stab him to death. This guy clearly wasn't doing his job properly so I had to kill someone who might've caused serious damage to the station.

[Dax Dupont]

What I saw was a man break into the bridge and try to take down heads of staff. For all I knew he could've, upon stunning the CE, taken out a knife and stab him to death. This guy clearly wasn't doing his job properly so I had to kill someone who might've caused serious damage to the station.

Arresting people is literally security's job last I checked.

Heads can be antags, and security was trying to arrest one of them. Why not let security do their job and ask an explanation instead of blindly trusting your non-mindshielded CE and lasering the security officer to death?

[Kramperino]

Last time I checked, breaking into the bridge and attacking heads of staff to prevent the shuttle from being called is not one of security's jobs

[Dax Dupont]

Last time I checked, breaking into the bridge and attacking heads of staff to prevent the shuttle from being called is not one of security's jobs

You didn't really even talk to them in the logs. You also stated not to know their intentions. You just saw a man arresting a man and instantly decided to laser them to crit/death.

Also technically security can arrest people for dereliction of duty!

Also we're going in circles. Unless the headmins have something to add this appeal is denied.

[Kramperino]

I did know their intentions, they were trying to attack a head of staff for calling the shuttle. What I didn't know was if they were going to kill them or not. I wasn't entirely sure so I put them in crit (I had a medical hud so I could see), the CE was who actually finished him off.

[Okand37]

Going to lock this pending headmin decision.

[CitrusGender]

I thought about this a little bit and I find the question of whether or not security is going to kill them to be a moot point. There is a reason why security gets some protection for doing their job and shouldn't be killed for enforcing a possible dereliction of duty. To say you can kill them because they might have killed you is a slippery slope argument and just them being there is not enough to think they were going to kill you and the CE (Sec doesn't even have knives anyways and they are implanted.) In any event, you could have likely told them to stand down before hand and (if they did not stand down) you would essentially be able to do what you did since they would be disobeying orders.

I think the main problem here is there was no indication to security that they should stand down and the fact that you wordlessly kill them without giving them any indication that you order them to stop.

There is some arguement that you were essentially defending your workplace though, which I am surprised that nobody has stated. Though I don't think it would be in good form to say sec officers cannot stop things from happening in the bridge. The captains office maybe, but sec in the bridge is something that should be allowed when there is the possibility of a dereliction of duty occuring.

To clarify, I would consider a CE calling the shuttle to be a dereliction of duty if he has no good reason of doing it.

I'm going to deny this unless another headmin wants to chime in.