[ahammer18] ArcLumin - Questionable Reasoning

[ArcLumin]

Account: ArcLumin
Character name: Forgot it; randomized name
Banning Admin: ahammer18
Bantype: Server ban, 1440 minutes
Ban reason: "Ahammer18: Releasing the singularity is a serious offence" (Released the singularity while loyalty implanted, claimed to have not know that they were implanted. Still released the singularity upon all of their rev comerades.)
Time ban was placed: UTC -8:00, 23:53
So, this was how the round was going. Was rev round, revs were getting reamed. Sec had most of us corralled and implanted in cargo. Officers were sent out to robust every single person on the station, handcuff them, and bring them to cargo. I was rev, and got captured by sec. Was trying to escape as I was being dragged to cargo. In cargo, there was tons of messages, to the point where things were scrolling out of the text window pretty fast. I was able to escape, and ran to engineering (was an engineer), and increased singularity power to 2. The idea here was; 1. Rev's were outnumbered, terribly. Hardly any left, we were pushed into a wall. 2. NOBODY in engineering. At all. And revs were avoiding the south west of the station like the plague, due to sec influence. 3. All of sec and heads were in Cargo. Not terribly far from engineering. There was a decent chance that the singularity would take them out, or at least get rid of some air in there.

After I changed it to 2, I hightailed it out of there, but ran into burning plasma. Got out of there before it got too bad. When I got to medical, I noticed that I wasn't rev anymore. The loyalty implant happened while I was in cargo, where everyone was yelling and throwing/attacking. I tried to get back to engineering (after healing) to reduce power to singulo, but the plasma fire was too strong, and the heat was staggering. Even after the fire was out, the air was much too hot. By the time it had cooled, the singularity had released. So, I spent the rest of the round as normal; trying to heal people, trying to survive, trying to help out the heads. About 20-ish so minutes later, I get messages from the trial admins. The text is a bit length, and since this is already a beefy wall of text, I will upload and append it to the end. Essentially; they were wanting to know why I released the singularity. I told them, I hadn't realized I wasn't rev until after I did it, tried to go back and fix it, but was blocked by plasma. Now, if I was banned right then for a dayban, fine. I get it. I was a non-antag who released the singularity. Pretty big no on that. He then questioned my reasoning of releasing it, even if I was rev. He very much implanted his reasoning into it, not mine. We argued about the reasoning behind me releasing it, however, he didn't seem to understand at all. Understandable, considering he wasn't playing my character, nor seeing what I was seeing. However, it is what he said next that was what really caused an issue

Admin PM from-Ahammer18: I am going to have to issue a dayban for this. Releasing the singularity is a serious offence

I questioned this. Why would releasing it even be in the game if you were banned immediately for doing it, regardless of reasoning? Of course, he backpedaled, and appended;

Admin PM from-Ahammer18: Because actual antags can validly release it when they arent TEAMantangs

This also causes a significant amount of issues. Essentially, disallowing teamantags to do this in ANY way, in ANY context. What if you're the last of your team? What if your team all knows and agrees to get away? What about lings, can they not release singularity? They have a shared chat channel, does that not mean they're team antags? What about Narsie, who is essentially a reskinned singulo with a few extra things? What about bombs? You can't know for 100% that there are none of your ally antags in areas that you're blowing up a bomb. You might realize too late that there was an ally hiding in a locker nearby. What about the HUGE amount of rev/cult rounds who bomb security to oblivion while their buddies are inside? They have the potential to kill allies too, are you going to ban for that? Will you ban nuke ops for shooting in halls because their allies could be at the ends? Banning on this reasoning is a slippery slope that should not be made into a policy, nor get anywhere close.

I'm protesting this ban on principle. If I was banned for "releasing singulo as non-antag", then okay, fine, on me, I should of paid more attention to the chat. However, it was specifically "Because you released singulo as a team antag" without any of the context to go along with it. This could potentially become a slippery slope, preventing all team antag rounds from doing any sort of large scale destruction to compensate for their small numbers.

tl;dr, was banned for releasing singulo as a "team antag", causing a huge issue due to a slippery slope. If I was banned for being a non-antag who released singulo, fine, but it was for team antag release of singulo

I don't care if this ban gets undone, as I did (on accident, mind you) release singularity as a non-antag. But I was banned like I was an antag.

http://puu.sh/dVaTd.txt Text from admin messages

[Ahammer18]

Admin PM from-Ahammer18: Because actual antags can validly release it when they arent TEAMantangs

Releasing the singularity as a team antag is a bad idea because you have the potential to harm your fellow antags.

What about lings, can they not release singularity? They have a shared chat channel, does that not mean they're team antags?

Changelings are not teamantags, they can act on their own accord, AFAIK

What about Narsie, who is essentially a reskinned singulo with a few extra things?

Summoning Nar'Sie is a common cult objective.

What about bombs? You can't know for 100% that there are none of your ally antags in areas that you're blowing up a bomb.

If you blow up a fellow teamantag you will be bwoinked because of it. We had to handle a headrev using a polyacid grenade against the HoS, resulting in a another revs death.

Will you ban nuke ops for shooting in halls because their allies could be at the ends?

There is a huge difference between a stray bullet and releasing the singularity.

PM to-Admins: You say it was dangerous to my team, but far more dangerous to the sec force

If your actions resulted in your team's death you would have been bwoinked regardless. Your reasoning would imply that it would be okay for a non-antag to release the singularity because "Well there seems to be a group of cultists in cargo"

I questioned this. Why would releasing it even be in the game if you were banned immediately for doing it, regardless of reasoning? Of course, he backpedaled, and appended;

The singularity containment failure is in the game for a number of reasons:
1) Yes, it allows antags who have no team members to harm to release it. You don't seem to understand that what you did is akin to a non-antag releasing the singularity.
2) It provides a consequence for setting up the engine incorrectly.

What if you're the last of your team?

Well then, yes, since you couldn't harm anyone but your enemies, I find no problem with this. You're deliberately taking my words out of context to suit your argument.

Also, you have been banned from teamantag positions for 1 week. I am not lifting any of the bans in question.

[Ahammer18]

Also I took the liberty of placing the actual ban reason into your post.

[ArcLumin]

Releasing the singularity as a team antag is a bad idea because you have the potential to harm your fellow antags.

This isn't a question about good ideas or bad, this is a stance about "what should be legal and what shouldn't" not about potential reasoning, as that's how you see it, not others.

Changelings are not teamantags, they can act on their own accord, AFAIK

They can also team up, just as they can act on their own. They are made with team play in mind, both with spreading genetic information and having their own chat.

Summoning Nar'Sie is a common cult objective.

As is "destroying all heads of the station"

If you blow up a fellow teamantag you will be bwoinked because of it. We had to handle a headrev using a polyacid grenade against the HoS, resulting in a another revs death.

If this is true, this is potentially in rather poor taste. I don't know all the details, so I won't say much, but reprimanding for something they can't control, such as another allied character walking into their polyacid smoke, would have you banning all day. Security is known for fatally shooting bystanders in their attempt to catch culprits, but you don't see too many bans about that, do you?

There is a huge difference between a stray bullet and releasing the singularity.

As you were saying, you reprimanded a person for accidentally killing an ally with a poly acid grenade, a stray bullet that could bring a nuke op from low health to crit is essentially the same thing.

If your actions resulted in your team's death you would have been bwoinked regardless. Your reasoning would imply that it would be okay for a non-antag to release the singularity because "Well there seems to be a group of cultists in cargo"

Faulty interpretation. A non-antag's duty is to serve the their leaders on the station; it matters greatly if they destroy a large chunk of it. However, an antag, which has very clear-cut objectives, need only accomplish those. And, people (namely, security or science) are typically not afraid to throw grenades that would severely damage the station/cause space tiles to appear. While my reasoning says "It's not okay for a non-antag to release singularity to destroy antags", many other players would say otherwise

You don't seem to understand that what you did is akin to a non-antag releasing the singularity.

Ah, but it's you who doesn't quite understand, but you're getting closer. I was a non-antag who released singularity. You even noted this. However, I wasn't banned for that; rather, I was banned for "releasing singularity as a team-antag", which essentially is essentially the same as "you can't use telescience to bring bombs into sec, because you don't know if you have allies in there"

Also, you have been banned from teamantag positions for 1 week. I am not lifting any of the bans in question.

Perfectly fine with this; seeing how the new trial admin staff is handling it, it's likely that there will be many more bans for previously "allowed" behavior in the coming weeks, pushing the more experienced players out and filling the roles with the inexperienced.

You're deliberately taking my words out of context to suit your argument.

Hah. Isn't that exactly what you did in your post? And it doesn't get more cut and dry than;

Admin PM from-Ahammer18: I am going to have to issue a dayban for this. Releasing the singularity is a serious offence

Anyways, I'll sleep for now, but I'll be curious to see your reasoning tomorrow.

[Saegrimr]

How do you get that far and not notice the huge red R by your character is gone?

[Ahammer18]

If you look in your post I added the actual ban reason, in italics. You were banned for two reasons:
1) Releasing the singularity as a non-antag
2) Releasing the singularity when you thought you were a team-antag and there were still other revs on board.

Perfectly fine with this; seeing how the new trial admin staff is handling it, it's likely that there will be many more bans for previously "allowed" behavior in the coming weeks, pushing the more experienced players out and filling the roles with the inexperienced.

It is extremely presumptuous to assume that you're the example of a good player that we like to see, you just released the singularity as a non-antag, while you thought you had rev comerades because "Wow it might kill some of our targets, I dont care what happens to my teams!".

And also, let me clarify what I meant why I said that it was akin to a non-antag releasing the singularity. You thought you were an antag, and you released the singularity, accepting that it could kill members of your team.

[Timbrewolf]

Releasing the singularity as a rev has been against the rules for actual years.

It should be common sense. Unless all the heads of staff are holed up inside engineering, releasing the singularity hurts you just as much IF NOT MORE SO than your potential targets. The Captain, CE, and HoS all have easy access to space suits and can easily chaperone the RD, CMO, and whatever other loyal members of sec and the station into EVA to get suits of their own. Meanwhile your random rev head doesn't have a suit and wont have access to EVA by default.

You say you were in a shitty situation, yeah? How does tearing open giant swathes to space and releasing a blackhole of death make that situation any better?

[Vekter]

This isn't a question about good ideas or bad, this is a stance about "what should be legal and what shouldn't" not about potential reasoning, as that's how you see it, not others.

This isn't the place to discuss what is and isn't a good rule. If you have issue with the server rules, please post a thread in Policy Discussion.

They can also team up, just as they can act on their own. They are made with team play in mind, both with spreading genetic information and having their own chat.

For the purpose of rules, Changelings are considered to be individual traitors and not a team, as their objectives don't require them to team up. They have the option of doing so, but it isn't necessary for their success.

As is "destroying all heads of the station"

Misrepresentation. What he's saying is that, even though Nar'sie does kill other teammates and act like a singularity, the Cult very often has the goal of summoning him. Very different from releasing the singularity.

If this is true, this is potentially in rather poor taste. I don't know all the details, so I won't say much, but reprimanding for something they can't control, such as another allied character walking into their polyacid smoke, would have you banning all day. Security is known for fatally shooting bystanders in their attempt to catch culprits, but you don't see too many bans about that, do you?

The expectation is that you don't do things that put your teammates at risk. He wasn't warned for the guy running into his smoke grenade, he was warned for throwing the thing in the first place. We use catching a teammate in it as a litmus test for how bad an idea it is. If he'd just hit the HoS, it would've been another matter, but clearly he was throwing it in an area where it could've potentially harmed a teammate (and it did), so he got bwoinked. Also, your Security situation is completely ridiculous. Sec is given nonlethal weapons and, even when armed lethally, they would have to shoot someone multiple times (read: 5-6 times minimum with lasers) to crit them, or hit someone who's literally deep in red in order to do any damage. As with anything else, situations like those would be handled on a case by case basis.

Faulty interpretation. A non-antag's duty is to serve the their leaders on the station; it matters greatly if they destroy a large chunk of it. However, an antag, which has very clear-cut objectives, need only accomplish those. And, people (namely, security or science) are typically not afraid to throw grenades that would severely damage the station/cause space tiles to appear. While my reasoning says "It's not okay for a non-antag to release singularity to destroy antags", many other players would say otherwise

You're forgetting that we're completely okay with non-team antags releasing the singularity. That's not an issue. The problem here is that if you release it as a team antag, you're blatantly going against your team's best interest by putting them in the line of fire, often unwillingly. Of course, if the entire team were to agree to it, that would be handled differently.

Ah, but it's you who doesn't quite understand, but you're getting closer. I was a non-antag who released singularity. You even noted this. However, I wasn't banned for that; rather, I was banned for "releasing singularity as a team-antag", which essentially is essentially the same as "you can't use telescience to bring bombs into sec, because you don't know if you have allies in there"

This is the crux of the matter, and at the end of the day why you were actually banned in the first place. You see a giant red notification telling you you remember who you were before being converted along with losing the red R next to your name. I have trouble believing that you didn't notice it, it's that obvious. The only reason you ate a week-long antag ban was that you were intending on releasing it as a team antag (which is, again, against the rules) and still haven't shown that you understand why that's an awful idea.

Perfectly fine with this; seeing how the new trial admin staff is handling it, it's likely that there will be many more bans for previously "allowed" behavior in the coming weeks, pushing the more experienced players out and filling the roles with the inexperienced.

This is a terrible attitude, don't expect to win any points with anyone around here with ad hominem bullshit like this.

Truth be told, at the end of the day, your logic isn't what matters. It's the logic of the people who came up with the rules in the first place. I'm sorry if you don't agree with the rules, but that's why we have a Policy Discussion forum. As I said, if you have issue with them, please post a thread there and start a discussion with the rest of the playerbase. Just don't expect to get much support on this one.

Also:

[3:10am] <~scaredofshadows> "I don't care if this ban gets undone, as I did (on accident, mind you) release singularity as a non-antag. But I was banned like I was an antag."
[3:10am] <~scaredofshadows> uh
[3:10am] <~scaredofshadows> if a rev runs in and releases the singularity and kills a bunch of his own team, I'd ban him for that too

[ArcLumin]

How do you get that far and not notice the huge red R by your character is gone?

By not paying much attention; I admit, I wasn't focused at that at the time, but I'm not contesting that part of the ban at all.

2) Releasing the singularity when you thought you were a team-antag and there were still other revs on board.

Even if they're really far away? Only the head revs count in a rev round.

"Wow it might kill some of our targets, I dont care what happens to my teams!".

Again, only headrevs count. I knew they were far away from there.

This isn't the place to discuss what is and isn't a good rule. If you have issue with the server rules, please post a thread in Policy Discussion.

Ah, you misunderstood. That wasn't about the rule, but him saying if it was a good idea or not. Regardless of it being a good idea or a bad idea, it has no merit to the topic at hand, which is about the stance of "banning for releasing singulo as a team antag" when there's a huge amount of of potential reasons for releasing it as an antag, some of which you agreed with. However, he stated quite clearly that any release of singulo as a team antag was a bannable offense, not a "case by case basis" as you say.

The problem here is that if you release it as a team antag, you're blatantly going against your team's best interest by putting them in the line of fire, often unwillingly.

Then, what is your stance on suicide bombers? It's very common in rev round for the head rev to tell the lower ones "take this bomb, blow yourself up in security/bridge/etc", is that also against the rules for your "you are a resource, do not waste it" ideology.

You see a giant red notification telling you you remember who you were before being converted

Actually, I got no such message. This is true for some types of deconversion, and this is what I was looking for. However, this was not the case; I did not receive any message other than the one I noticed later; "You feel a surge of loyalty towards nanotransen" which is normal sized, and blue

This is a terrible attitude, don't expect to win any points with anyone around here with ad hominem bullshit like this.

Not expecting to win any points, nor was that my point. I'm perfectly fine with my ban standing

if a rev runs in and releases the singularity and kills a bunch of his own team, I'd ban him for that too

Admin PM from-Vekter: And what if it'd eaten other revs?

"What if" implies it didn't eat any. I don't know what you're telling others, but mind if you give them the full story, hmm?

[Ahammer18]

It doesn't matter if it ate someone, it would be the same as leaving a bomb on the default frequency and running around security.

[Vekter]

I guess my biggest question is this: If you don't care about the ban, why appeal it? Just trying to prove you're right? At the end of the day, this isn't a debate about whether or not it's a bad idea. It's about the rules. The basis of the rule is that we've seen too many people release the singularity as a team antag and it fuck the rest of the team over. That's all that matters here.

Hammer has already said the ban isn't being lifted, and a headmin AND the host has backed that decision. I see this as resolved unless anyone else has anything to say.

[peoplearestrange]

Seems resolved to me, as both headmin, banning admin and another admin have all reached the same answer.