[<Armhulen>] Super Aggro Crag- Forum Rule 12 Ban

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Super Aggro Crag
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[<Armhulen>] Super Aggro Crag- Forum Rule 12 Ban

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #611202

BYOND account: SuperAggroCrag
Forum Name: Super Aggro Crag
Ban type:Forum
Ban length: 1 Day
Ban reason: Rule 12. Bigotry is not allowed. Intentionally seeking to demean others due to their actual or perceived race, sex, gender, orientation or the like is not tolerated.
Time ban was placed: Not sure since the forum constantly changes times depending on what zone you are in. I think it was around 2:00 pm EST?
Server you were playing on when banned: Off Topic Forum
Round ID in which ban was placed: Not applicable.
Your side of the story: I stumbled upon a peanut thread in regards to an admin complaint made by Fazbeus in regards to Nalaoc calling him a retard because he, according to him, came off as unnecessarily hostile in an ahelp. Quite a lot of people in the peanut thread took his side, but in return he lashed out stating that he was telling everyone our community was a shithole and slinging accusations of us being cyberbullying psychopaths who have driven teenagers to suicide (?????). I, quite frankly, thought he was being a pisshead so I decided to rile the guy up a bit, as is generally done in peanut threads to those peanut-originators who come in and start causing a ruckus. We went back and forth with some banter, me generally making jokes about Russian stereotypes and him screaming that I was, most assuredly in his eyes, very mad. This continued for about a page until Armhulen decided to ban me and state publically that he banned me for being racist.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I feel as though Rule 12 doesn't apply to this situation for multiple reasons. For one, "Russian", is not a race. It is a nationality. As far as I am aware, national banter is allowed on this forum. If it is NOT the case, then the rule is being very inconsistently applied, as there are multiple users of this forum who meme on and about "le amerilard" and "stinky europoor", etc.

The screencapture below is a statement that was made by armhulen in the very thread a mere few posts below the one in which he announced he banned me.

Image

If such is the case, and it is not racist, why was I banned? Is Russia an exception to the rule because part of it is extended into Asia? If that is the case, why is it not noted in the forum rules? Is it not a matter of me making fun of Russians, but rather the quantity of my posts making fun of them? If so, I would appreciate if it was clearly delineated in the rules on how much I can make fun of someone's homeland before copping a ban to prevent cases like this in the future.

If I and Armhulen are mistaken, and barbs about another's nationality are NOT tolerated, then why is this rule so inconsistently applied? There is a gulf of division in our playerbase between those who main on the European server and those who play on the American servers, and in many peanut threads these two sides come together to sling verbal abuse at each other. If this isn't allowed, why have the admins not done anything to shift the server culture away from this behavior?
Anything else we should know: I have reason to believe that this ban was not applied in good faith, but I only have speculative info on this so I will leave it to a complaint thread.
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Armhulen
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Re: [<Armhulen>] Super Aggro Crag- Forum Rule 12 Ban

Post by Armhulen » #611204

I guess MSO has to look at the posts and decide for themselves or PKP since they are a site admin

thread: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29688

My only defense for myself is that the deleted posts go way too far, are from a place of hate and not friendly banter, meant to demean and insult the guy, and make our community look exceptionally bad and hostile. I think the dayban was incredibly light and crag should know better than to post what they did
crag wrote:Anything else we should know: I have reason to believe that this ban was not applied in good faith, but I only have speculative info on this so I will leave it to a complaint thread.
ban crag = conspiracy. guess we'll see it in the complaint thread but honestly I barely talk to you ever so I don't know why you'd conclude that I have anything against you specifically.
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Re: [<Armhulen>] Super Aggro Crag- Forum Rule 12 Ban

Post by MrStonedOne » #611209

Armhulen wrote:I guess MSO has to look at the posts and decide for themselves or PKP since they are a site admin

I only saw one fit to undelete and will leave the rest up to arm, pk, and the headmins to hash out.
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Re: [<Armhulen>] Super Aggro Crag- Forum Rule 12 Ban

Post by Armhulen » #611211

MrStonedOne wrote:
Armhulen wrote:I guess MSO has to look at the posts and decide for themselves or PKP since they are a site admin

I only saw one fit to undelete and will leave the rest up to arm, pk, and the headmins to hash out.
Thank you
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Re: [<Armhulen>] Super Aggro Crag- Forum Rule 12 Ban

Post by PKPenguin321 » #611227

Super Aggro Crag wrote:If such is the case, and it is not racist, why was I banned? Is Russia an exception to the rule because part of it is extended into Asia? If that is the case, why is it not noted in the forum rules? Is it not a matter of me making fun of Russians, but rather the quantity of my posts making fun of them? If so, I would appreciate if it was clearly delineated in the rules on how much I can make fun of someone's homeland before copping a ban to prevent cases like this in the future.
I'll immediately clear this up before saying anything else that the discussion arm refers to was about different posts completely (from memory it was something that was almost literally "guy 1: are you british" "guy 2: yes" "guy 1: ew") which is totally fine because come on, nobody's being hurt and it's all in good fun.

As for this ban, I really don't like that rule 12 was used because it's kind of flimsy and ill-defined. I don't really feel like setting any controversial sweeping precedents for how it will be applied here. To elaborate, I will say that if I personally got in a really heated argument and the other guy started unironically saying things towards me like "AMERIFAT GO DODGE SOME GUNFIRE AT A SCHOOL AND EAT A BURGER, DONT FORGET TO TIP THE SHOOTER" I'd not care if he was banned for it or not, because I don't really give a shit and it's clearly targeted to eat at my sense of nationalism and not at me directly because they actually believe that that's what I do on a daily basis and that I'm ashamed of it. There's the argument to be made that saying something like that is using being American as a starting point to generate insults, and that actual racism is more like "You are American, therefore I automatically dislike you and truly believe you are inferior for it." (And yes, it is a nationality more so than a race, but whatever. I'm a janitor not a rules lawyer.)

Anyways, my point is that it would have been a lot easier to simply lock the thread or hand out a ban for general shit stirring, something like rule 6.
Rule 6 wrote:We are here to have fun, if you are not having fun, maybe it would be best for you to take a break
I think that's pretty fair, and it sure requires a lot less brain power and rationalizing about what kind of banter is acceptable. Why don't we retroactively make this a rule 6 ban instead, lower the duration by about a day (which at this point just means unban), and agree to cool our collective jets in the future? I think I'll just do that. I don't know that there's a way to edit past warnings without direct access to the database, so if anyone ever cites that warning against you in the future (extremely unlikely), link them to this post or whatever.
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Re: [<Armhulen>] Super Aggro Crag- Forum Rule 12 Ban

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #611231

that seems fair to me pkpenguin. If an admin told me "hey dude chill out for a bit" I would have, I don't go out seeking bans. From my point of view the guy came here to stir shit cuz he wanted to make a highlight reel of people being mean to him so he could show his buddies and I gave it to him and according to fazbeus himself they all had a great big laugh about it and they are totally not mad so I don't know why it ain't considered fun fun bantertimes
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Re: [<Armhulen>] Super Aggro Crag- Forum Rule 12 Ban

Post by Armhulen » #611233

I agree with that because historically rule 12 both feels bad to have applied to you, bad to apply, bad to figure out if you're wrong or right, and in the end only MSO can decide whether you did your job or not. While I could say "Hey, MSO left posts deleted, which means it was a correct application considering bants and who knows who and how welcoming the community is" I would rather just call rule 12 rubbish and skip a ban appeal + complaint from someone who might I add I like and label it as "chill out bro"

I mean what did we accomplish today beyond hurting me and crag's friendship because does Crag feel like they learned something? Not likely, so there was no point
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Re: [<Armhulen>] Super Aggro Crag- Forum Rule 12 Ban

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #611238

im sorry for accusing you of having a grudge against me armhulen I'd say I was being a pinhead dipshit
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Re: [<Armhulen>] Super Aggro Crag- Forum Rule 12 Ban

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #611239

and also im sorry fazbeus if I crossed the line with my barbs i was just trying to be a fun guy and give you nice highlights for your tgstation hitpiece

you can make fun of me for double posting
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