[Borb197] Annihilite - Clown overescalation

[Annihilite111]

BYOND account: Annihilite
Character name: Honkificer
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 7 days
Ban reason: "As a non antagonist clown, proceeded to generally grief the station alongside the other clown, breaking windows with a fireaxe, and generally looting or shitting around. When attacked, they would severely overescalate and end up causing the other player to be left decapitated. You have a history of this behavior, and have had a very long time to learn, som im sending you off with a week break."
Time ban was placed: 2022-01-28 12:41:26
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 177436
Your side of the story: Right, so the first part of the ban note is pretty accurate. I came across the other clown being a nuisance and decided to join in. We were on the run from security on a pretty low pop round, smashing windows and generally being annoying with two stolen fireaxes. To be clear the only thing i recall being guilty of actually stealing was the fireaxe (which i pied the mime for). The other clown had stolen AA though, so we went through maint into medbay. We started breaking the windows there before security could catch up/Find us, and then a paramedic (justifiably. we WERE vandalising the department) started attacking me with a welder. We immediately responded to this by fighting back with our axes, and once they went down the OTHER CLOWN kept going, decapitating the paramedic. Surprised, i just kinda stood there, before beginning to think of how we could revive them. The other clown suggested we do so out loud and i agreed, and then i got bwoinked.
Why you think you should be unbanned: Well, after having some time to let this whole situation sink in, i'm not sure that i actually broke escalation policy. Policy states that an aggressor may initiate conflict as long as it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job. Window breaking, while annoying and ugly to look at, doesn't actually affect any of the machinery or tools needed for medbay to do their job, aside from arguably making entry by tiders easier. Obviously, its still a dick move, and makes me valid, but that's where i believe the next clause comes in.
The instigator is able to respond in kind to any escalation in force the defender/responder causes, which was exactly what happened here. The paramedic attacked me with a lethal weapon (lit welder), and i responded by in turn attacking them with a lethal weapon (my axe). Once they were in crit, i stopped (i believe i might have hit them once more as id been attacked earlier in the round and my attacker had gotten up from crit and kept going then). The other clown didn't, and decapped the paramed. I had been ready to epipen the paramed and get them back on their feet (after removing the welder), and was caught completely off guard by this. Borb said that i should have tried to stop it, but frankly their head was already on the floor by the time i'd registered what was happening. It really doesn't take long for an axe to decap.
As for my note history, it looks more condensed than it is due to me playing for an unhealthy amount of hours each day (LOOK at my playtime history and weep, for i am addicted and have had way too much free time these past months). Additionally, the frequency of incidents involving me drops significantly over time as i get better at playing the game the way it's intended. I love teaching new players the roles i know and will often dedicate several rounds to teaching someone if they need it. (i'm not sure if that's relevant since it's just a week ban but the prompt said to include it)

Really, the part i take most issue with is the ban note, which implies that i myself CAUSED the decapitation, rather than it being the action of a separate player entirely out of my control. If nothing else i'd like my note to be updated to better reflect the situation, since it'll stick around permanently. For what it's worth i DO think i was in the wrong in the conflict. Being a dick for no reason and breaking shit was just poor form and i really should know better than getting swept into the pace of someone else and thinking that it's okay just because another guy is doing it to. Even if this was technically not overescalation, it was not much fun for the paramedic and i myself would be really annoyed if someone broke my department window, so i really am sorry about this.

Finally, i wanna add that my memory is kind of bad, so please do check the logs to corroborate my version of events. I would do it myself but im not sure if i even can, so i'd appreciate it. Thanks for hearing me out.

[borb197]

Hey, thanks for taking the time to write out your appeal!
I'll go through the ban in a bit more detail and my thinking than stated in the ban reason:

First of all, about the over-escalation & decapitation:

You and the other clown had fire-axed a medical doctor in response to them attacking you for breaking all the windows in their department. I acknowledge that, while both of you did initially start attacking them with your fire axes, you did not perform the decapitation, only attacked them (still in the head I believe) until they reached critical condition, while the other clown finished them off and kept attacking until decapitated.

The first issue I have with this is that this is very blatant kill baiting; you were griefing their department by destroying their windows, likely in order to trigger a response from them, and when they did respond by retaliating with a welding tool, you and the other clown wasted no time in getting to killing them with your fire axes, and while you did seem to stop before they were decapitated, you and the other clown still killed them over a conflict which occurred from you two griefing their department in the first place.

Next, I'd like to say that, while you did not perform the decapitation nor any attacks that directly killed them, you still attacked them with a fire axe in the head, which while I'm willing to modify the note to state that you did not perform the decapitation yourself, you should still be responsible for it happening if you were one of the parties lethally attacking them.

This also was not the first conflict you and the other clown had started by shitting around and then killing whoever responded to it (namely looting & the head of personnel), which I did not and will not consider for the sake of this appeal as it was it's own separate issue and a lack of context, just something I wanted to state.

Overall, you had shown to have instigated conflicts either by looting or breaking windows (some with shocked grilles as well) for god knows what reason, and then responded by attacking with a fire axe, until in one case dead and the other critted and soon after decapitated by your friend.

I am leaning on upholding the ban, however I'll take the events further into consideration and make a final say on if I lift, shorten or uphold it later now given you've appealed and context provided by you.

As for the note, I am willing to modify it to state that you did not decapitate them, however you should be ready to take responsibility for participating in killing someone, simply because you axed them to half-death and stopped doesn't mean you shouldn't be responsible for their death.

[Annihilite111]

Hm. I have no way to prove that my intent wasn't to killbait, except maybe mentioning that we also broke windows near arrivals (specifically avoiding depressurising anything), and other places where no crew would be likely to encounter and attack us. If i just wanted to kill that would have been an unnecessary detour, for sure. Of course, there is no way for you to know what my intentions were, so i understand if you judged it as such, however.
As for the HOP situation (and i apologise if this is off topic), i would actually like clarification on the rules for that situation. I walked past the other clown and HOP fighting in captains quarters maint, and seeing that the HOP was using significantly more deadly weaponry i dove in to help the clown. I had no knowledge of the situation and i'm unsure if i should have jumped in at all, since i had no idea who had initiated the conflict and which side i should join. I ended up choosing the clown because i was one too, but is there a recommended "default" stance on this? Like sure one of them is command but they are both equally likely to be antags/valid at that point. Do i just not act if im unsure?

[borb197]

In the case of a conflict such as this, you should never jump into a lethal conflict between two others in the middle of it, especially with lethal weaponry, simply choosing the other clown's side and killing the HoP with zero context is essentially the same as you going up to them and killing them for no reason, because that's basically what you did.

Unless you are 100% certain that one participant in the conflict is an antagonist or otherwise wrongdoer and you have a good reason to attack that individual which would be valid when escalating against them without the involvement of the parties they're already conflicting with, then don't join the conflict.

[Annihilite111]

I see. Thanks for explaining!

[borb197]

I've given this appeal some time, mainly to consider the events that took place and ensure that I had enough time to consider what would be most appropriate to do with the ban, and I've decided on upholding the week server ban.
As for the note itself, I may modify it if you'd like to be more specific on not beheading the medical doctor yourself.

Thank you for appealing, though, it really helps give both parties a detailed look at the events that took place, and helps discuss any issues or anything unclear.

[Annihilite111]

No worries. If that's your decision i'll respect it. I actually saw a post on the forums today about the spirit vs the word of the rules, and it made me realise that however much i argue the specifics, the fact is that i did break rule 1 by being an ass. I'll just have to make sure i dont end up back here again! I would like the note clarified since it'll stay forever, though.

[Qbmax32]

Borb has retired and asked me to update the note, it's been updated to:

Banned from the server for 7 days - Banned from the server for seven days - As a non antagonist clown, proceeded to generally grief the station alongside the other clown, breaking windows with a fireaxe, and generally looting or shitting around. When attacked, they would severely overescalate and the other clown ended up causing the other player to be left decapitated. Despite not actively participating in the decapitation, you have a history of this behaviour, and have had a very long time to learn, so I'm sending you off with a week break. Appeal on the forums if you think you can behave before that.