[Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

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[Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #695051

BYOND account: SUPER AGGRO CRAG
Character name: Megan Arthursdottir
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 14 Days
Ban reason: Image.
Time ban was placed: See above image.
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: See Above Image
Your side of the story: Round started. I latejoined about 40 seconds in as a medical doctor. I performed my usual tasks of getting set up, informing the crew to put on sensors, et cetera. Sudden crisis, the supermatter almost immediately starts delaminating and bodies begin flooding into medbay. I set to work trying to direct triage by getting the paramedics to put people on stasis and repair the injured people as they come in. Power goes out so stasis beds no longer work. There is now a time crunch because chemistry did not have time to make formaldehyde because immediate supermatter chicanery. As I am attempting to re-attach an arm and repair ruptured eardrums, a lawyer keeps pestering me asking me about the psychologist. I try to ignore him until my patient is up and healthy. He asks me if I have access to the psychologist's office. I do not think I do, but see no harm in checking. This was a mistake. as I turn the corner to check the office the lawyer runs up and flashes me and says "ok, its the captain and the HOP." I inform him my displeasure at his deception and tell him "I am not contributing, I have an actual job to do." I may have said some cuss words, i forgot. I am annoyed because the previous round I joined was War Ops, which meant I did not get to roleplay on the medium roleplay server, and it was now Revs, which means I will not be able to roleplay on the medium roleplay server again, as it will quickly degenerate into a team death match PVP bang bang m1 m1 haha horizontaltime. I return to triage, trying to deal with the incoming tide of injured. I am frustrated at this time, but still felt the round would be recoverable if I was allowed to keep performing the job I signed up for and healing people. A man is brought to me, bereft of legs (from the supermatter exploding). I repair his hearing and work on getting him some new legs when I am bwoinked by the admin, Sightld2. They say to me "Crag I don't think you can refuse your Headrev if they need your help with the revolution. You're a team antagonist now. If you genuinely don't want to play rev like, ever, we could do a requested ban?" I am frustrated and do not think I should be banned for not just running silently towards red shirts and silver ID cards hammering my left mouse button. I get a little heated and respond in a manner that may be a bit inappropriate. My response was "
im not fucking running around murdering people all round because someone funny handed me in a second. i have actual work to do with half the crew being dead because some fuckwit engineer botched the SM round start. THe last 22 rounds have been TDM bullshit". The statement about "22" rounds is inaccurate. It was a typo. I meant to say "2 rounds". The reason why I typo'd was because as I am responding to the ahelp, a laughter demon bursts out from the blood puddle under my patient and begins murdering the two of us. I hammer out the response as fast as possible and attempt to flee from the demon. The demon pursues and begins murdering me further. I am now truly angry in thus moment and say to the demon "I am responding to an admin bwoink, fuck off dipshit". This is IC in OOC and against the rules and I apologize, but I was really upset someone began trying to round remove me while I was trying to respond to an admin and not get banned. The demon leaves but at this time I am exsanguinated and pass into crit. The round is not even a half hour in by my reckoning and it is already absolutely buggered. I express my intent to DNR over OOC because I am angry and continuing to be in this situation is only going to make me angrier and cause problems, and deathgasp "I just wanted to play the fucking game." I then disconnected. I later find out, post round end, that apparently the slaughter demon was spawned by a wizard spawned by admin chicanery? I am not sure of this, but if so that is really annoying.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I freely admit that I was angry and behaved inappropriately towards Sightld2 in the ahelp, and for that I apologize. However, I feel that a 14 day ban for this incident is rather excessive. The note he is referring to is from some months ago, when I experienced being shot repeatedly and dragged around security nude for almost an entire round for the crime of climbing over a bar to help someone who had slipped on foam that was seemingly neverending. I understand that sometimes I can get frustrated with this game and it is inappropriate to lash out at the administrative staff for this, but please try to understand from my point of view that me saying "fine, fuck it, I'll leave" and disconnecting is an attempt by me to de-escalate my anger. In Sightld2's note they ask me to manage my anger. I attempted to do so and am slapped with a 2 week ban for OOC in IC.
References of good conduct:Semi-competent medbay player. I do not play on any other servers at the time of this appeal.
Anything else we should know: Sightld2, I am sorry for lashing out at you when you bwoinked me. It was not cool of me to do so. I am trying to be better but it is a work in progress and occasionally I stumble. I feel that the note lacked a bit of context which I attempted to elucidate in my appeal and I feel the ban length is a bit excessive for OOC in IC. If you do not feel removing the ban is in the best interest of the server, I request that you consider perhaps lessening its length somewhat. Thank you for your time.
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Re: [Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Sightld2 » #695053

I wholeheartedly agree that two weeks is much for OOC in IC, the basis for its time is that Cheshify's previous one was 5 days, for (what I understand to be) functionally the same thing. I feel that over the exact same grievance, it's normal for the punishments to increase in severity.

I was offering a revolutionary ban as an out for you to not have to play revs in the future, not a punishment. You have expressed distaste for it as a gamemode many times. In fact in tandem with this note IS a perma-ban on conversion antags, however I also tagged onto it that it could be removed on request. I'll remove THAT ban right now if you want.

The wizard came from Riggle accidentally causing the death of a nukeop with a television and lag the previous round, Riggle felt they deserved compensation and allowed them to become a wizard in this one.

Anyways, the whole point of Cheshify's ban and now mine, is that you continue to get upset at the game break server Rule 3. It is already something that's happened, and happened again. I can empathize with getting angry and making a mistake. But can you offer me anything to suggest this really won't happen again? When it already has? Again and Again?

Looking further, Cheshify's note isn't even the only one. There is another from Ayamepup on 2022-09-09 Round ID:190185. There are five further notes for Rule 3 from 2020, and while I certainly wouldn't care about notes so old normally, they are struggling to inspire confidence in me, that this ban deserves to be lifted because you genuinely will stop. You haven't stopped in the past. What is different now?
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Re: [Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #695055

Can you explain to me how a conversion antag ban works?

As for your question, you are bringing up notes from years ago. I have been a member of this community for over a decade. In that time, someone is going to have interactions with the administrative staff, sometimes negative. It is only logical that I would have accrued more notes than most. I have heard, from multiple admins, that notes are not a means of punishment, but merely a matter of record keeping. In another thread of this very forum, there are multiple administrators, some of them headmins, trying to browbeat an appealer into accepting a note by showing that "notes aren't even that big a deal" by showing off their OWN note list. However, it seems in my case that my prior notes are in fact grounds for more extreme punishment. Why does it seems notes are only "not a big deal" when it comes to the server staff? As I said, I am making a concentrated effort to be a more positive member of this community. If you talk to the most senior members of the community, those that have been here when I, in my late teens, started playing this game, I feel they would state that my behavior has improved both in game and in my interactions with server staff. I truly care about this game and its community or else I would not have stuck around for almost 14 years. My attempts to try and have a positive impact on my peers are occasionally clumsy and fall short. I am a big, dumb Frankenstein's Monster who grew up in a shitty environment and sometimes my fingers on my keyboard are faster than my brain, but I feel as though my behavior, reprehensible as you may find it, is not that out of the norm for the community. I frequently see people use OOC terms in IC on Manuel on a regular basis, or make clumsy references to "The centcomm gods" when an admin facerolls the funny buttons. Did me telling the slaughter demon that I was dealing with a bwoink ruin his enjoyment of the round? Did me, in my dying breath, wishing that I actually got to play the job I signed up for ruin anyone's round? Did me, being 1 person of a crew out of around 57 telling someone I did not want to be a footsoldier in his genocide crusade ruin his entire round? I just want to put peoples limbs back on and give them CPR and patch up their bodies and have a witty repartee while doing it. I am not the guy who consistently murders 70 percent of the station when he rolls antag and MI6 asks him to steal some secret documents. I am not the guy communicating with his friends over discord telling him where an antag dragged his body. I am the guy who gets angry at a game where other players err, and made an error in turn because of that anger. I feel that you asking me to never experience frustration or disappointment ever again in the future is as unreasonable as me asking everyone that plays the game to never do anything stupid ever again, such as blowing up the singularity less than 12 minutes into the round.
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Re: [Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Sightld2 » #695059

A conversion antagonist ban is basically an out from having to play when you're converted in a round, and is usually requested by players when they don't want to play / feel tired of a team antagonist. When converted, you're offered to ghosts and then someone takes over your body to play as you. This lets you leave the round that you wouldn't want to play and go do something else before joining next round instead.

I understand that you have played this game for a significant time, but I haven't gone digging back a decade or fourteen years for these notes. Just a couple years. I acknowledge still, that a couple of years is quite some time to be looking back, but when I look at such a time frame on any other player, I have yet to see a similar case of one breaking the same rule 6 times. I'm not sure I find it entirely fair, that you can get away with continuing to break the rules by spacing it out every few months.

I am not one such administrators that is trying to beat down "notes aren't punishment." I think that debate is pure semantics, and I said as much in Admin bus months ago:
"They are. Unless you're being pedantic and want to say that in reality the notes are just recordkeeping; that it's not the notes that lead to a future ban, it's the fact that previous rule breaking behavior happened before and was repeated."

I think the difference between the two viewpoints is razor thin and not worth debating.

Regarding your improvement, In the brief time we've been had to hold this discussion thus far, one admin has told me this is a significant step up from your typical appeals, while another is telling me that you're spouting the same old story again. If there is any point I would like you to convince me of, it's the one.

Regarding other players making reference to "the gods" I agree this is line-toeing and would ask them to knock it off just as well. Even still, I don't think I would classify it as the norm for the community, much less what you did in this case, which is far more blatant.

I am not going to entertain the "drop in the bucket" mentality about being 1 person out of 57. I also do not, for the purposes of this appeal, care about other even less healthy player activity. This is about you.

I am not asking you to never experience frustration. I completely understand and sympathize with getting emotionally invested in the game and the time spent playing it. What I am asking, is for you to Alt-f4 before it reaches the state that causes you to break the rules.

I understand that the timing of this ban is very unfortunate for you, I'm open to discussion about potentially working around that.
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Re: [Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #695060

So you mean to tell me that a conversion antagonist ban essentially turns getting funny-lighted into an instant round removal? I would much prefer that not to be the case. I could always just get funny-lighted and just silently walk off and not participate, as I see many people do every rev round. My mistake was in making my intention known to the head, who presumably ahelped me for it.

What is there to discuss in regards to working around it? I have asked if you would be willing to shorten the ban. Would you be willing to do so?
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Re: [Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Sightld2 » #695061

I will remove the conversion antag ban.

I was considering allowing you to delay the ban? I'm not sure exactly how that would work or how to do it fairly. If I did do that, it would still be the full two weeks. Otherwise, how does 8 days sound?
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Re: [Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #695062

Sightld2 wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:50 am I will remove the conversion antag ban.

I was considering allowing you to delay the ban? I'm not sure exactly how that would work or how to do it fairly. If I did do that, it would still be the full two weeks. Otherwise, how does 8 days sound?
An eight day ban is preferable to a 14 day ban. I still think it is a lot, but I doubt you will be swayed otherwise and asking for a headmin review would mean sitting out the 14 day ban and waiting 3 months to be told either "nah it was ok" or "yeah it was excessive but the note isn't getting removed anyway for bookkeeping purposes." I'm willing to close the book on this if you are. Thank you for considering showing me a bit of leniency.
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Re: [Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Sightld2 » #695063

As of this post, the ban has been shortened to 8 days.
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Re: [Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #695064

Alright. Thank you for your time, Sightld2, and for your leniency. I will try to disconnect earlier in the future.
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Re: [Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #695644

I want this ban removed. I want this note removed. I want headmin review. This is an unfortunate fact that I now have to get headmins invovled in every interaction I have with server staff in an attempt to get every note against me removed because otherwise someone is going to use it in the future to fuck me over. My prior behavior of just eating the punishment and saying sorry I'll try to be better in the future is no longer viable because trying not to raise a shitstorm and seeking peaceful resolutions has seemingly made me a target.
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Re: [Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Sightld2 » #695663

Alrighty. The headmins have been pinged (many times).
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Re: [Sightld2] Super Aggro Crag- 14 day ban for OOC in IC

Post by Timberpoes » #695873

This is a long-form response. It's for Crag's benefit more than anything else, so he understands just what the craic is here, how we got to this point and why there seems to be a wild ban duration for such a minor incident in isolation. Any time a minor incident results in a long ban duration, it'll almost always involve someone at some point in the appeal going into some depth. Trigger warnings: Essayposting, not towerposting, Reddit formatting.

Logs sourced from https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... 2/game.txt
Filtered to "Super Aggro Crag"

Headrev part:
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[2023-07-22 02:46:17.858] GAME: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) has gained antag datum �Revolutionary(/datum/antagonist/rev).
[2023-07-22 02:46:30.478] GAME-SAY: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) "You shitter." (Medbay Aft (154,100,4))
[2023-07-22 02:46:34.980] GAME-SAY: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) "I am not contributing." (Medbay Aft (154,100,4))
[2023-07-22 02:46:44.993] GAME-SAY: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) "I have an actual job to do." (Medbay Aft (151,113,4))
[2023-07-22 02:46:50.512] GAME-SAY: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) "Unllike you." (Medbay Treatment Center (148,114,4))
Ticket https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/210762/5:
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Crag I don't think you can refuse your Headrev if they need your help with the revolution. You're a team antagonist now. If you genuinely don't want to play rev like, ever, we could do a requested ban?
sightld2 ➡ superaggrocrag
2023-07-22T02:51:54

im not fucking running around murdering people all round because someone funny handed me in a second. i have actual work to do with half the crew being dead because some fuckwit engineer botched the SM round start. THe last 22 rounds have been TDM bullshit
superaggrocrag ➡ sightld2
2023-07-22T02:52:41

Client disconnected
➡ superaggrocrag
2023-07-22T02:54:28

Sightld2/(Nova IV) has created a temporary 14 days server ban for Super Aggro Crag.
sightld2 ➡ superaggrocrag
2023-07-22T03:09:48

Resolved by Sightld2
sightld2 ➡ Admins 
I really don't think there's any ambiguity in you saying "I am not contributing" in responding to being flashed and being told it's the Captain and the HoP. That combined with your response and attitude in the ticket, and your response in the appeal, doesn't really inspire confidence that there's any incorrectness or unfairness in the:
Told his converting Headrev "I'm not contributing"
part of your note. The implication is you weren't going to contribute, and all of your reasoning is you explaining in exhaustive detail how how you weren't going to contribute, even in this very appeal.

That part of the note will stand.

Ick ock and ock ick into logoff part.
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[2023-07-22 02:52:42.904] GAME-SAY: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) "FUCK OFF" (Medbay Aft (154,103,4))
[2023-07-22 02:52:47.315] GAME-SAY: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) "IM RESPONDIG TO AN ADMIN BWOINK" (Medbay Aft (154,103,4))
[2023-07-22 02:52:49.373] GAME-SAY: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) "YOU FUCKING DIPSHIT" (Medbay Aft (154,103,4))
[2023-07-22 02:53:29.836] GAME-OOC: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) "you know what nevermind!" (Medbay Aft (154,115,4))
[2023-07-22 02:53:32.527] GAME-OOC: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) "ill just go DNR!" (Medbay Aft (154,115,4))
[2023-07-22 02:53:47.045] GAME-WHISPER: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) "WOULD LOVE TO ACTUALLY PLAY THE FUCKING GAME FOR ONCE" (Medbay Central (144,119,4))
[2023-07-22 02:53:47.053] GAME-EMOTE: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) seizes up and falls limp, her eyes dead and lifeless... (Medbay Central (144,119,4))
[2023-07-22 02:53:48.320] GAME-ACCESS: Mob Login: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) was assigned to a /mob/dead/observer
[2023-07-22 02:53:48.390] GAME: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) Client Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) has taken ownership of mob Megan Arthursdottir(/mob/dead/observer) (Medbay Central (144,119,4))
[2023-07-22 02:53:57.660] GAME: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir) has opted to do-not-resuscitate / DNR from their body (Megan Arthursdottir) (Interrogation Room (127,178,4))
[2023-07-22 02:54:28.768] GAME-ACCESS: Logout: Super Aggro Crag/(Megan Arthursdottir)
OOC in IC by telling someone you're responding to an admin bwoink.
IC in OOC by telling everyone you're just going to go DNR.
You deathgasp OOC in IC by saying you just want to play the game for once.
You log out half a minute later.

So there's no incorrectness or unfairness in this:
When I tried to talk to them about this, Crag spoke IC that he was talking to the admins and just wanted to play the game, then DC'd before our conversation could continue.
And it even omits your IC in OOC. So it's actually slightly more in your favour than it otherwise could have been.

The request to manage your anger is a valid statement to put in this note.

The comment on your previous incident from Cheshify 3 months ago:
Banned from the server for 5 days - "OOC: Super Aggro Crag: shitcurity round go! day of the yarnball soon all felinids must hang"
After a lengthy escalation where they were kicked out of the bar and then hopped the counter to help another assistant attack the bartender with a hatchet, Crag then chose to ahelp asking admins to ban the bartender, then ban security.
On-top of this, they were extremely aggro in ahelps and sent the previous message in OOC before disconnecting.
Trying to welderbomb the bartender because they shot you for hopping the counter, the IC in OOC, and the rage in adminhelps needs to stop.
Is basically a Ctrl-C Ctrl-V type of incident. You get irate at something then do some icky or ocky over it.

So the note pretty much stands as-is and won't be overturned.

As for the ban length, choice to ban and your mitigation in the appeal.

Being frustrated at the game isn't mitigation. Generally our frustrated players don't lash out and break the rules.

Those which do lash out get handled administratively; often they burn out in a wonderful explosion of toxicity and end up perma'd, then get caught in a cycle of denied appeals being unable to get a vouch because no other server tolerates even a fraction of the bullshit we do from players on genuine tilt.

When players lash out in ahelps, they very rapidly burn through admin team goodwill. And admin team goodwill is a limited resource that individual players rely on to turn bans into notes, long duration bans into short duration bans and permas into long duration bans.

You say you've been playing for ages, so let's be fair and use the living hours metric on your note history to see how your living hours stack up against your note history:
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

 2023-07-22 03:10:32 | Manuel | Round 210762 | Sightld2 | 729h Living Playtime
This incident

 2023-04-29 20:30:30 | Manuel | Round 204735 | Cheshify | 640h Living Playtime
5 day Ban

 2022-12-11 03:56:41 | Manuel | Round 196053 | Harricross | 484h Living Playtime
Note

 2022-09-09 23:36:42 | Manuel | Round 190185 | AyamePup | 479h Living Playtime
2 day ban

 2022-09-02 01:18:12 | Manuel | Round 189686 | AyamePup | 467h Living Playtime
12 hour ban

 2022-03-17 19:24:24 | Manuel | Round 180104 | Ze Doctor | 397h Living Playtime
Note

 2021-12-25 05:57:58 | Manuel | Round 175387 | Owegno | 358h Living Playtime
Note

 2021-09-15 23:04:25 | Manuel | Round 169672 | Domitius | 328h Living Playtime
Note

 2021-06-05 05:44:31 | Manuel | Round 163520 | Danny Delete-O | 296h Living Playtime
1 day ban

 2021-06-05 04:21:28 | Manuel | Round 163520 | Harricross | 295h Living Playtime
Note

 2021-01-10 08:15:32 | Manuel | Round 153932 | MrAlphonzo | 269h Living Playtime
1 week ban
This is, in my view, the most objective way to look at a player's note history. Your note density from the start of 2021 to the end of 2022 was abysmal relative to your playtime. you played about 100-120 hours per year during 2021 and 2022. And you averaged about 26 hours of play between each incident (Median 28 hours).

You never actually put in enough living hours for those notes to stop being relevant, because there was never a proper gap where you put in enough living hours for those notes to genuinely expire. The admin team can say things like "notes expire after X time" or "we don't care about notes from X long ago" but the honest truth is living hours matter more than anything else.

Between 2022 and now you've actually put in 250 living hours. So you managed in 6 months enough gameplay that took you 2 years before. Even a personal record breaking 150 hours between notes from Dec 2022 until Apr 2022.

But your previous note history is still there. And it has only been 7 months since you stopped getting constantly noted and/or banned. But you're actually accelerating back into it. And with a reduction in your game issues, your OOC conduct is now coming into question with oh so very nearly getting your ass blacklisted in April.

So while it may seem harsh, the amended 8 day ban will also stand.

You never put in enough living hours without incident to actually distance yourself from your history, which was dense with notes and bans. And I checked your ticket history. I don't even thing there's any hint that the admin team has it out for you or is unfairly tagetting you. For example, you have an instance of being a salt factory and calling someone a Redditor IC because they were spamming anti-NT comms during a blob right, which was never noted. And looks like a couple of incidents involving MMIing people that are toeing the line of MRP and could have been noted.

So clearly the admin team are treating you fairly by not placing notes under every possible opportunity. Eggshells don't apply you. You actually need to stop smashing all windows then taking your shoes and socks off to go stomp around in the debris.

Infact, too many of your tickets are you demanding we ban everyone that inconveniences you. Be glad the admin team doesn't just ban everyone that pisses you off, because that same standard in benefit to others would have honestly seen you perma'd long ago.

There's positives. It's clear there's change. You managed a new personal best 150 hours without any serious issues that would result in a note from the end of Dec to April.

But the raw note density from Jan 2021 to Dec 2022 never had you building a long enough gap without getting into trouble that the pattern of it could be left behind. So if you ask how we possibly could have given you credit for your recent better-than-it-was-but-now-getting-worse history when banning you for 14 or 8 days? Consider the credit given being that the ban wasn't permanent this time, because if you'd played any fewer hours between now and April then December last year it very well could have been.

Kieth4: Happy with the appeal reaching 8 days. He very clearly broke the rules so there will be no note removal. It could be cool to make a point of how crag has certainly improved but this is a recurring issue.
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