3/3 in shitty bans this month, this time for bombing a wiz.

[Steelpoint]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Perhaps the problem is that if it was anyone else who bombed the wizard, it would've been fine. I mean, Oldman has been banned like nine times for bombing as a non-antag, and at this point, he should've realized it's just not okay in 99% of situations, and bombing a major hallway of the station, medbay and the bar, is also not okay.



Besides, it's just four days. Suck it up.

So your admitting that the only reason Oldman should be banned is because he's Oldman, and that if anyone else had used the bomb then it would have been fine?

Personally I don't give two shits about people's play habits for the most part. But in this situation Oldman was clearly in the right to use the bomb in this particular scenario.

[Saegrimr]

So your admitting that the only reason Oldman should be banned is because he's Oldman, and that if anyone else had used the bomb then it would have been fine?

Personally I don't give two shits about people's play habits for the most part. But in this situation Oldman was clearly in the right to use the bomb in this particular scenario.

It sounds more like people who continually do a thing will be put under more scrutiny for doing that thing.

[Incoming]

Mechanics clarifications:

Lichs stay dead when either their item or their body is destroyed before rising. https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12598 will help make destroying the item a more realistic option for crew, but if a lich is careful with his cooldowns then yeah, a bomb is one of the few effective ways to be absolutely sure. One of the other ways is to successfully capture a wizard alive and then burn it without killing it. This is amazingly hard to do.

To keep a round from ending the moment a lich dies for the first time the lich spell will turn off the ability of the round to end on wizard's death when it's first used. This is why bombing a lich will actually NEVER end a round immediately. This is shitty coding and entirely my fault and I will fix it shortly.

tl;dr Liches are powerful and hard to kill if they abuse the resurrection timer mechanics, Oldman did nothing wrong except assume that the wizard was a huge threat, which to be fair is usually a fairly safe assumption.

Edit: fix is now in the pull

[Tornadium]

Really?

He uses the only counter to lich, is successful and gets banned for it?

[Oldman Robustin]

Still waiting for that response on how we're supposed to deal with Liches without resorting to bombs. Shadowlight if you're going to post shit like that you better back it up.

As for "you should know better", that's precisely why I'm posting about all this shit. I *DID* know better, I thought I understood the contours of this game's bomb policy and that's how I've been bombing for so long (as a nonantag) without getting benned for it.

Two recent episodes, each shitty in their own unique way, have brought to a forefront how impossibly inscrutable our bomb policy is. With all the ahelp conversations, the bomb policy threads, etc. I've made and still not gotten an answer that lets me understand when bombing is appropriate, you can't act like my prior run-in's with the adminbus are a mark against me. Give me a clear understanding of where the damn line is before you accuse me of "toe'ing it". Putting in stuff like RISE! and Timestop and then aggressively banning non-antag bombers is just a recipe for bullshit.

My current plan for future bombs is to just get pre-authorization from admins every single time. I'm sure a few admins are nodding along with this thinking "GREAT!", but I hope most of you realize that if an intelligent veteran player who's no stranger to bombs can't reliably decipher when it's going to be bannable, and OOC communication becomes mandatory for every bomb use, we've gone way too far in the direction of regulating player behavior.

[Shadowlight213]

I'm on my phone, but you've started fucking screaming so what the hell.

As for killing the lich, sure if you see gibbing as the only way to kill the lich then you're limited in what you can do. However, there's another way to do it, that it seems no one has figured out.
Call the shuttle.
Seriously, kill the lich, call the shuttle, decon the consoles. If he comes back, kill it again. Each time he dies, the timer before he can revive goes up. Once he's down, but hasnt revived yet, use a smaller bomb or try dragging him to the gibber/cremator.
If he just decides to wait out the revive cooldown hiding, then you've bought more time for the shuttle to come. I know you'll yell about how this is retarded or something, but it just shows how rp is dead, and people care more about killing the antag than getting the crew out alive.

Also, Oldman quit jumping back and forth on the whole bombing the antag thing. When we talked about the blob bomb ban you said that the whole you didn't kill the antag with the bomb you get banned thing was stupid. But now you're screaming that it's all ok because you killed the antag. Make up your mind.

[Wyzack]

I think his point was that it is a dumb rule, but it is still a rule. He gets bans whether he applies the bombs according to established precedent or not

[Stickymayhem]

Shadow light you don't need to defend a shit rule if you think it's shit.

People aren't annoyed that you did something wrong, they're annoyed that something wrong is the norm. I probably could have done the same a few months ago.

If you think the rule is worth fighting for go for it though.

[Krutchen]

I'm on my phone, but you've started fucking screaming so what the hell.

As for killing the lich, sure if you see gibbing as the only way to kill the lich then you're limited in what you can do. However, there's another way to do it, that it seems no one has figured out.
Call the shuttle.
Seriously, kill the lich, call the shuttle, decon the consoles. If he comes back, kill it again. Each time he dies, the timer before he can revive goes up. Once he's down, but hasnt revived yet, use a smaller bomb or try dragging him to the gibber/cremator.
If he just decides to wait out the revive cooldown hiding, then you've bought more time for the shuttle to come. I know you'll yell about how this is retarded or something, but it just shows how rp is dead, and people care more about killing the antag than getting the crew out alive.

Also, Oldman quit jumping back and forth on the whole bombing the antag thing. When we talked about the blob bomb ban you said that the whole you didn't kill the antag with the bomb you get banned thing was stupid. But now you're screaming that it's all ok because you killed the antag. Make up your mind.

You can gib, or you can go on a hunt through maint for a single item on the entire station. Did you ever play Nuke ops before Pinpointers were created? Also, Do you really think any Lich that's able to cause problems is going to just sit back and let the crew get on the shuttle? You know, the type of WIZARD who not only can have extremely dangerous spells, but also the ability to REVIVE HIMSELF over and over again, so that even if he fails to recall it once, unless you're high tailing it to the kitchen with his corpse in tow (While you're likely bleeding out from the variety of magical fuckery he's throwing your way, and quite possibly dealing with a Slaughter demon or two thrusting their murder boner into your every orifice), he'll be right back on your ass with full health and knowledge of exactly who is left and what kind of fight they can put up.

[Shadowlight213]

A wizard using information from death as a lich rather than using the scrying orb is as bannable as a ling doing that.

[Oldman Robustin]

Palpatine/Shadowlight, just because I think killing the antag as a simple ban/no ban policy is dumb, doesn't mean I can't be pissed off when I actually kill the antag and get banned anyway.

At a basic level, it's a very straightforward logical threshold with 3 tiers:

MOST BANNABLE
1) People who bomb innocents and fail to kill any antag
2) People who bomb innocents and kill the primary antag but fail to end the round
3) People who bomb innocents and kill the primary antag, successfully ending the round
LEAST BANNABLE

I always felt like our policy was somewhere around #1 as the threshold. Bombs to kill wizards/blobs/malfs was the norm and even if you failed it wasn't a guaranteed ban, but rather it would be heavily scrutinized for the circumstances. Did you warn the crew? Did the antag manage to survive out of sheer luck/unforeseeable circumstances... or was your bomb attempt just shitty and reckless? How many people died, how many people did you know would die? Etc... etc...

It was a fair and reasonable rule. #2 would still be bannable in very limited circumstances that don't apply here.

When you applied #1 to me last week I thought it was shitty because it was never a black/white rule... I warned the crew loudly and repeatedly for several minutes and only detonated my bomb in the smoking crater of another crewmember's previous bomb, only to find out there was an undocumented change to make blob cores immune to bombs... yet initially that didn't seem to matter to you and you laid down a ban in short order.

If I thought the way you applied #1 was shitty, of course I'm going to think it's shitty if a headmin tells me that its actually #2 that's your policy and it's equally black & white.

[TheNightingale]

{{It just occurred to me that this'd probably be better in Policy Discussion, disregard}}

[Oldman Robustin]

At this rate it looks like it's going down as a Brotemis-tier "non-canon" ban, aka we think the ban sucks and it's not going to be our policy but the banning admin is convinced they are correct so we'll leave the ban intact to avoid adminbus strife.

With Brotemis it was me going to the HOP line after WIIIZZAAARD, developing a backstory about me being a veteran of the Wizard Wars and refusing to tolerate a wizard on the station, using my official HOP-sanctioned promotion to "Wizard Hunter" to get an unstable mutagen syringe gun, then after the "Friendly Wizard" beat the crew in a holodeck game of B-Ball his "one request" for winning was for us to kill the bartender... with his hostile intent confirmed, I ran in, shot the Wizard, and about a minute later it was all over.

I thought it was funny since that round involved more RP effort than 90% of the players here and taken as a whole it was a pretty compelling story (crazed Wizard War veteran seeks revenge against the enemy in a dramatic assassination), but Brotemis just saw me killing a wizard FNR and dropped some goofy "powergame" ban on me after monologue'ing in OOC about how terrible powergaming is.

I recall that was one of my few bans that didn't get repealed even though almost nobody supported it and I haven't seen action since that time indicating that wizard assassinations are ever bannable. I feel the same way about this ban. Hopefully Lich gets changed (either nerfed or round-end on death regardless of slaughter demons or other meme antags) before people catch on to Shadowlight's statement that if you go Lich and just summon other antags to shit on the station for you while you just run around trespassing and committing minor assault, then nobody is actually allowed to permanently kill you and they just have to endure your bullshit for 30 minutes until the shuttle departs. Great policy direction.

[Wyzack]

Ausops has been pretty good about not letting FNR stuff hang, hopefully we can get a resolution today because this is fucking ridiculous

[peoplearestrange]

Once again it seems like theres no other information that needs adding and its rapidly becoming argument for the sake of it territory.

So i'll ask anyone without NEW information to refrain from posting until a headmin has reviewed it.

Ta

[Tornadium]

Can any mods or admins start pinging headmins to deal with this?

Like before the ban time actually expires?

[Saegrimr]

A headmin was the one that banned him.

[Steelpoint]

This is the future we chose for /tg/station.

On topic I really think there needs to be a resolution from another head admin.

This might be in murky territory but it has always been considered that a non-participating admin would rule on these issues, as its unfair to ask the admin/s involved directly with the issue to give judgement well after the fact.

Its the equivalent of moving to a higher tier court only for the same Judge to be following you and giving the same judgement.

[Saegrimr]

You were banned for ignoring multiple admins and a weeks worth of warnings to play the game or stop shitting up OOC, don't drag your shit in here. Make your own appeal.

[Gamarr]

He gutted medbay. I think that's why he's catching this particular ban. You going to suicide bomb, you can pick a better place in case you fuck up instead of assuming you're going to squeak by turning medbay into a crater by virtue of round ending. Saying this too, if he had done it more.... elsewhere, I'd be more ambivalent and lenient on this ban and CJS, but as is, I approve and agree.

Rules are not cut and dry here much as people would love them to be, they never are, and depends greatly on the situation. Bombing the wizard has always been such an area. I can understand it being lich, and he was doing his own best to counter it. Your failure was not so much the bomb itself but where you enacted it as I see it.

[Gamarr]

Yeah fuck you CJS.

You didn't ask that lich to go to the bomb testing site before going for the kill.

Almost literally anywhere but medbay. Just on the off chance you fuck up, don't be such a gaping asshole that you don't care you fucked all healing and revival chances sideways. Engineering is probably the other one that comes to mind, because singulo being loose because you bombed out power probably is not good either.

[Krutchen]

Yeah fuck you CJS.

You didn't ask that lich to go to the bomb testing site before going for the kill.

Almost literally anywhere but medbay. Just on the off chance you fuck up, don't be such a gaping asshole that you don't care you fucked all healing and revival chances sideways. Engineering is probably the other one that comes to mind, because singulo being loose because you bombed out power probably is not good either.

It's almost as if he didn't actually destroy Cryo, or Genetics, and that instead the only area that really got destroyed was Chemistry and the Foyer. Obviously the most irreplaceable and crucial parts of medbay.

[Ahammer18]

Due to the ridiculous amount of shitposting this peanut gallery is attracting, this topic will be locked pending a head admin review.

If any other moderator believes this was done in error, please feel free to unlock.

[imblyings]

ok lol. I don't want the server to become a bunch of bitter players whining each time their death wasn't 100% admin certified legit but I also don't want players going full retard and doing things like using max caps for any problem they come across. It's just one round, one player decided to use a very certain method of taking out an antag normally known for being a complete ass and pain to deal with permanently, in the knowledge that things would end so the precious feelings of innocent non-antags wouldn't get hurt but the round went on anyway and feelings got hurt.

I'm going to be an absolute madman and unban you, mostly because what else was the crew supposed to do apart from slowly get worn down or try and force a shuttle call while being worn down. Actual policy regarding use of bombs will have to wait.

However Oldman, you now know that if you're going to use bombs again do it somewhere more secluded than medbay so fnr shitfights don't happen again. Lure the wizard there, wait for the wizard to come near, or even cooperate with other crew members to avoid the area beforehand.