Note Appeal - Nilons

[Nilons]

The note in question is:

2017-01-07 00:17:04 | /tg/Station Bagil [ENGLISH] [100 | kevinz000
Warned - cargonia memes, ending in the death of a detective.

After checking through logs and getting kevinz to give me the ahelp logs from the situation I've pieced together what happened. The detective was hiding behind a plant randomly stunning people in cargo and after trying to eject him 4 or 5 times via stuns/talking or other means I set him on fire, where he died. Then the QM said he was taking him to cloning so I figured that was that, what ended up happening was his stuff was stolen by the QM before he was cloned.

I do not think it reflects our current policy as there was multiple attempts to nonlethally remove, after being asked. And regarding this asay specifically [00:11:56]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): alright, well, what I can say is be more careful in the future about escalation, and to try calling security instead. Your'e not required to remove them without security's help and you're not expected to. It's fairly expected for someone to forcefully eject someone causing trouble and hanging around for no reason in your department after trying to do it peacefully and nonlethally multiple times. It may not have been then but it definitely is now.

Ahelp logs from the time here for more context: https://pastebin.com/mq4A1tEp courtesy of kevin

If the note is still deemed fit to stay I'd like it to be changed to represent what actually happened, as it wasn't cargonia memes, it was over escalation if it could even be considered such

[kevinz000]

I've completely forgotten about what happened and I'm in some meeting so I can't investigate right now so give me a bit.

However, just because policy changed doesn't mean a note is necessarily invalid because the policy in question is different.

I probably can change the wording, though, once I have time to look at logs.

[kevinz000]

>it's been a day > I still haven't replied >Jesus Christ I'm a lazy fuck these days
24 more (or way less depending on how exhausted I am) hours and you have your reply

[kevinz000]

logfileanalyzer search of nilon's ckey/mobs gave https://pastebin.com/U1Y1C68B

[kevinz000]

Nilons do you remember this incident at all or only from logs because optimally i'd like a recollection of what happened but given it's 6 months old i'm not expecting much.

[kevinz000]

specifically what happened between
[23:41:15]ATTACK: Leroy Teagarden(vcordie) shot Richard Maleficus(nilons) with the electrode (NEWHP: 100)(171,166,1)

and

[23:44:56]ATTACK: Richard Maleficus(nilons) attacked Leroy Teagarden(vcordie) with Goldeneye Vermouth (NEWHP: 72.5)(157,162,1)
[23:45:00]ATTACK: Richard Maleficus(nilons) attacked Leroy Teagarden(vcordie) with cheap lighter(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: FIRE) (NEWHP: 67.5)(158,162,1)
[23:45:13]ATTACK: Richard Maleficus(nilons) hit Leroy Teagarden(vcordie) with Broken Bottle (NEWHP: 27.5)(158,161,1)

which resulted in their prompt death by fire.

when I asked you what they were doing -
[23:56:50]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): He was running around in cargo being a shitter, after the QM and me telling him to leave multiple times he didnt
[23:57:00]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): QM told me he lived or else I would have made sure he got cloned
[23:57:06]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Do you actually know what the was doing?
[23:57:26]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): Hiding in a plant and yelling shit at people? If he was doing actual detective work I apologise
yes that's annoying, but I really don't feel like that should be "set on fire and kill"

blah blah blah blah
[23:58:19]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Why did you find it was acceptable to set a member of security on fire for stunning cargo techs/the QM for disarming him?
[23:58:45]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): Because I had tried to stun him and drag him out already, and I was gonna take him to medbay after if no one else did
[23:59:31]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): It's generally not reasonable escalation to set people on fire.
[23:59:40]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Unless they are put out quickly they /will/ enter crit and or die.
[23:59:44]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): I had a fire extinguisher 5 tiles away
[23:59:49]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Did you use it?
[00:00:02]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): He was rolling himself out and a pack of angry goats had burst out of cargo when I went for it
[00:00:25]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): If you set someone on fire, you are responsible if they die. Failure to put them out is completely on you.
[00:00:51]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): Even if it would have resulted in more than my and his death if I had continued to grab the extinguisher

I understand there's extenuating circumstances, but this isn't a case of "I bucklecuffed them for greytiding and someone plasma flooded I had no way of knowing", but instead "I set them on fire and then goats burst into my cargo bay preventing me from extinguishing them" which is preventable if you didn't escalate to setting them on fire.

[00:01:03]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Yes, because you set him on fire in the first place
[00:01:15]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Defending your department is alright, immediately going lethal after a few disarms on security isn't.
[00:01:32]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): It wasn't me going for lethal, it was me going for a couple burns then put out
[00:01:44]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): Extenuating circumstances caused it to be lethal
See above. I wouldn't normally punish for honest accidents resulting in a death or two, but it's kinda a choice to be setting people on fire , and if stuff comes up and you're unable to save them, welp.
[00:01:51]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Yeah but the result is they died and got their stuff stolen because you and the QM overescalated.
[00:02:09]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Like I said, things like bombs, fire, plasma, you're always responsible if the unforeseen happens
this
[00:02:51]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): I can see where you're coming from but I think that "whatever happens is your fault if you set them on fire" is not reasonable
[00:03:14]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Eh, but in this case, you set them on fire in "defense" of cargo, when they are security, correct?
[00:03:39]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): Less in defense and more he'd been asked to leave 10 times and was not letting me nonlethally remove him
[00:03:53]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): Im not trying to be difficult here I just wanna look at every angle
[00:04:04]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Yes, but the thing is they are a member of security, and he got killed for it
[00:04:19]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): Like I said, I was going to clone him but the QM told me he was alive
[00:04:44]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): He wasnt even removed from the round, and QM still has his things
[00:06:48]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): And if I may ask was he cloned or did he survive?
[00:07:39]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Yes, but the problem is you and the QM overescalating when security comes in and you don't feel like they're wanted.
[00:07:52]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): He was in the cargobay for 20 minutes
[00:08:27]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): And isnt it ocky icky for him to come and attack me after being cloned?
[00:08:39]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): No it's not, you remember everything up to the point of death.
[00:08:51]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): Ah, some servers it's different my mistake
[00:08:55]ADMIN: PM: Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson)->NIlons/(Richard Maleficus): Only things you can't remember is knowledge as a ghost, and things in critical condition.
[00:09:41]ADMIN: PM: NIlons/(Richard Maleficus)->Kevinz000/(Mekhi Anderson): I feel like my escalation was proper, (asking to leave) > (Nonlethal removal) > (Lethal removal) over 20 minutes

From my initial lookthrough the logs I see from the interactions between you and the detective (and only that) that the detective stunned you.


vcordie/detective's logs: Shit I just realized these contain ips and cids so i guess not, admins can see it via edit log and for everyone else use public logs.

From what happened with the det I can ese they were getting disarmed and then fired a few taser shots around cargo. Tasers are nonlethal/don't do damage.
I guess they were ... talking shit? Although I don't find that anywhere near something that actino should be taken for. Sure, they're being annoying, but that doesn't mean set on fire after they try to stun you for disarming them.
Departmental defense is a thing but this is over the line tbh.


So yeah I'm still exhausted as heck, but I still don't see your actions as right, the det was talking shit and fired a few taser shots but from what I can see that's all he did, that's not enough to be killing them over (Yes I know it's an accident but stuff like fire doesn't excuse you if you screw up the """nonlethal""" part of the execution.)
"cargonia memes" is probably a bad description for the note though so I guess I'll sleep on it and reread the logs again tomorrow.

all logs 'gotten' via .getserverlog and searched with logfileanalyzer.

More edits yay: yeah ok "cargonia memes" is a really bad descriptor for the note and probably inaccurate as it wasn't full blown mutiny-tier cargonia stuff, so i'll be changing that for sure, sorry.

[Nilons]

As I recall it not just from logs, he was sitting behind a plant, disarming people whenever he came out from it, would not leave when asked, and was randomly searching anyone who came in without stopping. After being asked like 4 times to leave and then being ejected forcefully he still came back to fuck with people in cargo for no reason instead of doing sec work. No worries about the mislabelled note

[kevinz000]

eh i'll reread it soon but I don't see anything of that sort right now hmm

[kevinz000]

your note has been updated to more properly reflect what happened (I still can't see in the logs where he was randomsearching/disarming people, maybe it's further up? give me something to text-search, please), please go read it and see if it's acceptable.

[Cobby]

Is this resolved?

[kevinz000]

i dunno, nilons, are you satisfied or did I miss somethign?

[Nilons]

Haven't been posting much because of post approval, only issue is that it wasn't because he was "talking shit" it was because I'd unsuccessfully tried to remove him nonlethally multiple times

[kevinz000]

my entire point during that conversation is that it ended in his death without actual escalation short of him firing a taser a few times though. yes, he's annoying but otherwise he shot a taser, sure, don't kill them (or do something that results in their death, i count setting someone on fire and failing to put them out resulting in their death as a kill because well, playing with fire).

[PKPenguin321]

Is this resolved?

[kevinz000]

depends on if nilons is happy with his resolution, I still dont' think this should just be brushed aside as you still got a det burned down as nonantag when they didn't use a single ounce of harm on you or your coworkers. Yeah they're being obnoxious but this is kinda past the line.

[Nilons]

only issue is that it wasn't because he was "talking shit" it was because I'd unsuccessfully tried to remove him nonlethally multiple times

disrupting the workplace and refusing to leave multiple times is not talking shit

[Cobby]

If he doesn't want to leave and tries to stop you from getting him out then it's on him for whatever he gets.

[Nilons]

If he doesn't want to leave and tries to stop you from getting him out then it's on him for whatever he gets.

This is what I'm getting at, it's not like he was surprised and he did get cloned

[Cobby]

017-01-07 00:17:04 | /tg/Station Bagil [ENGLISH] [100 | kevinz000 [Delete] [Not secret] [Edit] Last edit by kevinz000 (Click here to see edit log)
Warned - Overescalation as cargo personnel, set a detective on fire for talking shit (det was in cargo talking about "investigating" them or something) and shooting a few electrodes after detective was attacked by the QM, detective died, special circumstances were involved (goats got loose) but if you play with fire(or bombs or anyhting of the sort) you're responsible if things go wrong.

This note doesn't even make sense considering the only "innocent bystander" was the individual the fire[or bomb or anything of the sort] was directed towards.

[kevinz000]

I'm removing it when I'm home because honestly I can't make heads or tails of this anymore (I was watching you you two during the actual incident but now I just don't know) and I'm sorry for half assing it for a week

[Armhulen]

ill remove it for ya don worry

[Armhulen]

gonezo

[Cobby]

ok thanks.