[ MrAlphonzo ] Gamemanx8 - Job banned ghost roles 7 days

[gamemanx8]

Byond account and character name: gamemanx8- Snoops-the-dog
Banning admin:MrAlphonzo
Ban type (What are you banned from?):Ghost roles
Ban reason and length: You have been jobbanned by mralphonzo from: pAI, posibrain, drone, deathsquad, lavaland.
The reason is: As a syndie scientist, arrived at the space station and went on a murder spree. Syndie scientists are not allowed to enter the station under any circumstances.
This jobban will be lifted in 10080 minutes.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 4:30 est
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story: So after ash walkers built a bridge to the syndi- base we also encouter the mining droppod (the ones with the turrets) So we go in and capture it. All of a sudden the shuttle to the station on the pod comes and it has a broken terminals so we go on the shuttle to see what we can find. Shuttle is suddenly sent to the station and there an epic fire fight ensues
Why you think you should be unbanned: A 7 day ban from ghost roles is stupidly over kill, especially from an inexperienced trialmin. In addition to that no where does it say you cannot assault the station nor does it say you cannot leave the base at all.

[Armhulen]

Actually it does say to not leave, in big bold text.

[Armhulen]

what does this mean to you

[gamemanx8]

It means keep to your self until you get assaulted by Ashwalkers and nanotrasen miners who send an assualt mining pod near your base. So what does good cause mean to you?

[onleavedontatme]

what does this mean to you

I guess it depends whether you believe people breaching the base and seeing enemy structures outside is "good cause" or not, it doesn't sound entirely unprovoked.

"Not allowed to enter the station under any circumstances" is not strictly true but you should probably run it by admins before you do

[Armhulen]

they have a lava moat to keep people out as much as it is keeping people in.

[MrAlphonzo]

I can't remember precisely which admin I discussed this with, but I had a fifteen to twenty minute discussion with a fullmin before about what Syndie scientists are and aren't allowed to do, and got a ruling.

If you have probable cause to exit the outpost if you feel it is threatened, that is allowed. For example, the comms agent overhears the crew threatening to raid the syndicate outpost or you hear miners trying to enter the outpost from outside, those are proper grounds. From what I was told, you can go as far as the mining outpost and clear it out if you see it fit, but that is the finish line.

The ruling was that the station was off limits, regardless of what justified you to take the outpost.

You were unable to provide a reason as to why the Mining Outpost could not provide shelter for you and your co-workers, and instead went directly to the station.
If it is true that you accidentally arrived at the station, you shouldn't have risked hopping on a pod that had just docked with the outpost in the first place. Or, if possible, use one of the mining consoles to send yourself back instead of beginning a firefight resulting in several casualties.

Your justification for heading to the station doesn't make much sense now, either. You were driven there by miners and ash walkers, fearing your life was in danger?

What did you expect to happen when you arrived at a station with eighty crew members? You'd be even more outnumbered than you were on the mine.
I doubt you thought that place would be any safer.

[onleavedontatme]

they have a lava moat to keep people out as much as it is keeping people in.

I know they do you silly frog I designed the place and wrote the flavour text about staying.

I left enough wiggle room in the text for them leaving and even boarding the station under certain circumstances on purpose (though I was imagining nuke ops coming to pick them up, not stumbling away from ash walkers into a station raid) but I can see how a mostly reasonable player could interpret it the way they did.

[gamemanx8]

In addition to this no where in the logs does it say I sent the shuttle to the station. Keep in mind I am not the only one, and even for something extremely niche like this a 7 day ban is ridiculous especially applied on 4 people. And to take it even further, why have super lethal snipers spawn with to begin with? The syndis didnt even build the bridge. This entire situation can be taken a step further where we must ask ourselves "Why have lavaland antags at all?". One answer is that it spices up the round and makes it more intense as well as giving dead players a second chance to do something fun. And Kor, you were right to leave wiggle room in the flavor text because it allows more fun. Imagine traitors coordinating with the syndicate base on lavaland using the syndicate channel. Tbh I find that more useful than emagging the communication console and sending a flavor message to admins in hopes they give you something useful

[D&B]

Wasn't the point of the bomb payloads to make sure the scientists activate them so their base (and their research) doesn't fall in the hands of NT?

[gamemanx8]

Wasn't the point of the bomb payloads to make sure the scientists activate them so their base (and their research) doesn't fall in the hands of NT?

You bring up a good point. However for this specific situation the bomb was re-purposed and used to blow up the ash walker nest to prevent more of them from coming

[BeeSting12]

It appears that he had a fairly valid reason to leave the base. First to blow up the ashwalkers to prevent attack, and then when a hostile pod landed next to his base, he carried out a preemptive attack which seems logical. When he moved to get on the shuttle, it launched and he got stuck onstation. Sure, he could've gone back, but you know the thirst for valids as well as I do. I don't actually know how this went down, but I'm assuming someone tried killing him and he defended himself. If we're gonna ban someone when an interesting situation comes up, what's the point of having the base?

[gamemanx8]

It appears that he had a fairly valid reason to leave the base. First to blow up the ashwalkers to prevent attack, and then when a hostile pod landed next to his base, he carried out a preemptive attack which seems logical. When he moved to get on the shuttle, it launched and he got stuck onstation. Sure, he could've gone back, but you know the thirst for valids as well as I do. I don't actually know how this went down, but I'm assuming someone tried killing him and he defended himself. If we're gonna ban someone when an interesting situation comes up, what's the point of having the base?

Exactly, why bother having lava land antags at all ? Like that fire fight on the station was pretty awesome even tho syndis lost

[Cobby]

It appears that he had a fairly valid reason to leave the base. First to blow up the ashwalkers to prevent attack, and then when a hostile pod landed next to his base, he carried out a preemptive attack which seems logical. When he moved to get on the shuttle, it launched and he got stuck onstation. Sure, he could've gone back, but you know the thirst for valids as well as I do. I don't actually know how this went down, but I'm assuming someone tried killing him and he defended himself. If we're gonna ban someone when an interesting situation comes up, what's the point of having the base?

To be a virology and Chemistry tutorial ruin and to troll on comms?

"Why do we even have snipers" - op

To kill people who build bridges to your base. I'm not understanding the actual cause of leaving the base to kill the crew when you could have just killed the ash walkers.

[cedarbridge]

especially from an inexperienced trialmin

Daily reminder to stop doing this shit. A "trialmin" is an admin, full stop.

[gamemanx8]

It appears that he had a fairly valid reason to leave the base. First to blow up the ashwalkers to prevent attack, and then when a hostile pod landed next to his base, he carried out a preemptive attack which seems logical. When he moved to get on the shuttle, it launched and he got stuck onstation. Sure, he could've gone back, but you know the thirst for valids as well as I do. I don't actually know how this went down, but I'm assuming someone tried killing him and he defended himself. If we're gonna ban someone when an interesting situation comes up, what's the point of having the base?

To be a virology and Chemistry tutorial ruin and to troll on comms?

"Why do we even have snipers" - op

To kill people who build bridges to your base. I'm not understanding the actual cause of leaving the base to kill the crew when you could have just killed the ash walkers.

Why have snipers when u have pistols? Why even bother to have a chemistry/viro tutorial when there are guides out there? Why bother having a ghost role tutorial when a good chunk of players that even know that ghost roles are a thing already known how to do chem and viro or at the very least know how to read a guide. Why make a tutorial ghost role an antag? I could go on. Re-read the discussion above to get a better understanding

especially from an inexperienced trialmin

Daily reminder to stop doing this shit. A "trialmin" is an admin, full stop.

Doesn't mean they're not inexperienced especially when it shows in their bans

[Qbopper]

especially from an inexperienced trialmin

Daily reminder to stop doing this shit. A "trialmin" is an admin, full stop.

Doesn't mean they're not inexperienced especially when it shows in their bans

then prove that the ban was shit without making low effort posts about trialmins

[gamemanx8]

especially from an inexperienced trialmin

Daily reminder to stop doing this shit. A "trialmin" is an admin, full stop.

Doesn't mean they're not inexperienced especially when it shows in their bans

then prove that the ban was shit without making low effort posts about trialmins

Then take effort to read the discussion above

[Armhulen]

It appears that he had a fairly valid reason to leave the base. First to blow up the ashwalkers to prevent attack, and then when a hostile pod landed next to his base, he carried out a preemptive attack which seems logical. When he moved to get on the shuttle, it launched and he got stuck onstation. Sure, he could've gone back, but you know the thirst for valids as well as I do. I don't actually know how this went down, but I'm assuming someone tried killing him and he defended himself. If we're gonna ban someone when an interesting situation comes up, what's the point of having the base?

To be a virology and Chemistry tutorial ruin and to troll on comms?

"Why do we even have snipers" - op

To kill people who build bridges to your base. I'm not understanding the actual cause of leaving the base to kill the crew when you could have just killed the ash walkers.

This is correct, I was wrong before

You shouldn't have even left to deal with the ashwalkers, but instead killed them when they entered the base. You broke the rules the moment you left because when you have sniper rifles spears aren't really a huge threat that forces you to leave. And the lava moat getting filled is not a compromised base that you can't use anymore, either!

[gamemanx8]

It appears that he had a fairly valid reason to leave the base. First to blow up the ashwalkers to prevent attack, and then when a hostile pod landed next to his base, he carried out a preemptive attack which seems logical. When he moved to get on the shuttle, it launched and he got stuck onstation. Sure, he could've gone back, but you know the thirst for valids as well as I do. I don't actually know how this went down, but I'm assuming someone tried killing him and he defended himself. If we're gonna ban someone when an interesting situation comes up, what's the point of having the base?

To be a virology and Chemistry tutorial ruin and to troll on comms?

"Why do we even have snipers" - op

To kill people who build bridges to your base. I'm not understanding the actual cause of leaving the base to kill the crew when you could have just killed the ash walkers.

This is correct, I was wrong before

You shouldn't have even left to deal with the ashwalkers, but instead killed them when they entered the base. You broke the rules the moment you left because when you have sniper rifles spears aren't really a huge threat that forces you to leave. And the lava moat getting filled is not a compromised base that you can't use anymore, either!

Keep in mind sniper rifles dont have unlimited ammo, and again no where does it say you are not allowed to leave the base period.

[feem]

I can buy that killing the active threat to the base was a perfectly reasonable reason to leave the base.

I can, to a MUCH lesser degree, buy that destroying or disabling the nearby aux base -- if it was EXTREMELY nearby and discovered ONLY by fighting off the active threat -- could be a reasonable reason to leave the base.

However, boarding the shuttle was NOT reasonable. Going to the station was NOT reasonable. And failing to patch the hole and go back to work is NOT reasonable.

You're clandestine and that's one of your priorities. At the point that your base was breached, it would have been FAR more reasonable to blow yourselves up than to go to the station and start killing.

It's a ghost role ban, and a perfectly justified one. Ghost roles are not run of the mill MAH VALIDS!!! antag roles. They're perks, not rng opportunities to murderbone regular players en masse.

Furthermore, whipping out the "inexperienced trialmin" and other bullshit like that in your ban appeal is an excellent way to reduce the efficacy of any arguments you might make. Admittedly this is a pet peeve, but a trialmin isn't a trial in the eyes of the players, it's a trial in the eyes of the other admins and, in the end, the headmins.

They're there to enforce the same rules that "fullmins" are and they're just as empowered to do so, and when you "helpfully" point out that they're a trialmin the only thing you're being "helpful" about is illustrating how disrespectful you are.

[Armhulen]

It appears that he had a fairly valid reason to leave the base. First to blow up the ashwalkers to prevent attack, and then when a hostile pod landed next to his base, he carried out a preemptive attack which seems logical. When he moved to get on the shuttle, it launched and he got stuck onstation. Sure, he could've gone back, but you know the thirst for valids as well as I do. I don't actually know how this went down, but I'm assuming someone tried killing him and he defended himself. If we're gonna ban someone when an interesting situation comes up, what's the point of having the base?

To be a virology and Chemistry tutorial ruin and to troll on comms?

"Why do we even have snipers" - op

To kill people who build bridges to your base. I'm not understanding the actual cause of leaving the base to kill the crew when you could have just killed the ash walkers.

This is correct, I was wrong before

You shouldn't have even left to deal with the ashwalkers, but instead killed them when they entered the base. You broke the rules the moment you left because when you have sniper rifles spears aren't really a huge threat that forces you to leave. And the lava moat getting filled is not a compromised base that you can't use anymore, either!

Keep in mind sniper rifles dont have unlimited ammo, and again no where does it say you are not allowed to leave the base period.

They don't, you do have an arsenal of stun weapons in a vending machine so there really isn't an excuse and i'm not saying you're not allowed to leave I just don't think it was a very good one. MAYBE the ashwalker nest, definitely not the mining base

[onleavedontatme]

You shouldn't have even left to deal with the ashwalkers

Having a swarm of satan worshiping lizard people lay siege to a black ops mega corporation base and the agents inside responding by hauling out their self destruct to nuke the nest is exactly the kind of emergent story I was hoping for when I made ghost roles and left that "without good cause" escape clause in their flavour text though.

Creatively repurposing you environment to respond to organic situations is SS13s most attractive and enduring feature

[gamemanx8]

I can buy that killing the active threat to the base was a perfectly reasonable reason to leave the base.

I can, to a MUCH lesser degree, buy that destroying or disabling the nearby aux base -- if it was EXTREMELY nearby and discovered ONLY by fighting off the active threat -- could be a reasonable reason to leave the base.

However, boarding the shuttle was NOT reasonable. Going to the station was NOT reasonable. And failing to patch the hole and go back to work is NOT reasonable.

You're clandestine and that's one of your priorities. At the point that your base was breached, it would have been FAR more reasonable to blow yourselves up than to go to the station and start killing.

It's a ghost role ban, and a perfectly justified one. Ghost roles are not run of the mill MAH VALIDS!!! antag roles. They're perks, not rng opportunities to murderbone regular players en masse.

Furthermore, whipping out the "inexperienced trialmin" and other bullshit like that in your ban appeal is an excellent way to reduce the efficacy of any arguments you might make. Admittedly this is a pet peeve, but a trialmin isn't a trial in the eyes of the players, it's a trial in the eyes of the other admins and, in the end, the headmins.

They're there to enforce the same rules that "fullmins" are and they're just as empowered to do so, and when you "helpfully" point out that they're a trialmin the only thing you're being "helpful" about is illustrating how disrespectful you are.

Yes trialmins are there to enforce the rules, however when the inexperience shows it is more than perfectly reasonable to point it out especially when the rulings are woefully unfair in regards to such a niche situation. The player base is more than entitled to point out the shortcomings of certain admins. Remember, its the players that make the games interesting, not the admins. However I digress.

You shouldn't have even left to deal with the ashwalkers

Having a swarm of satan worshiping lizard people lay siege to a black ops mega corporation base and the agents inside responding by hauling out their self destruct to nuke the nest is exactly the kind of emergent story I was hoping for when I made ghost roles and left that "without good cause" escape clause in their flavour text though.

Creatively repurposing you environment to respond to organic situations is SS13s most attractive and enduring feature

Exactly, when an opportunity presents itself you take advantage of it. If people are gonna hand out bans like this to discourage creative and robust playing then you're going to end up losing part of the player base that makes the game interesting

[feem]

I completely agree with Kor that blowing up the ash walkers was a good thing.

You probably even could have gotten away with blowing up the mining pod.

The shuttle, and by extension the station, was inappropriate for a ghost role.

[gamemanx8]

I completely agree with Kor that blowing up the ash walkers was a good thing.

You probably even could have gotten away with blowing up the mining pod.

The shuttle, and by extension the station, was inappropriate for a ghost role.

The shuttle literally just randomly docked with the mining pod. Its such an unlikely scenario. Its not like the syndis dug their way to the mining station which is why I find the 7 day ghost ban bullshit.

[onleavedontatme]

I completely agree with Kor that blowing up the ash walkers was a good thing.

You probably even could have gotten away with blowing up the mining pod.

The shuttle, and by extension the station, was inappropriate for a ghost role.

I agree the shuttle was too far, but I think it was borderline enough too far/caught up in the rush that a "hey please ask admins before you do that again" and editing the note to reflect that is preferable to blanket "never leave the base ever" pronouncements.

[kevinz000]

Can I maybe comment and say that it looks extremely disrespectful and outright rude to immediately open an admin complaint (closed now but still) asking to not promote Alphonso over this one ban before it's even done being discussed instead of putting it in feedback?

[onleavedontatme]

Can I maybe comment and say that it looks extremely disrespectful and outright rude to immediately open an admin complaint (closed now but still) asking to not promote Alphonso over this one ban before it's even done being discussed instead of putting it in feedback?

Yeah it was silly that's why that thread is locked and this one isn't

[Cobby]

Why have snipers when u have pistols? Why even bother to have a chemistry/viro tutorial when there are guides out there? Why bother having a ghost role tutorial when a good chunk of players that even know that ghost roles are a thing already known how to do chem and viro or at the very least know how to read a guide. Why make a tutorial ghost role an antag? I could go on. Re-read the discussion above to get a better understanding

especially from an inexperienced trialmin

Daily reminder to stop doing this shit. A "trialmin" is an admin, full stop.

Doesn't mean they're not inexperienced especially when it shows in their bans

-Because snipers do more damage and stun. Pistols are the secondary sidearm. Take note it's a SNIPER as in snipers are thematically for long range and picking people off as opposed to an assault weapon like a rifle or shotgun.

- Because the chemistry guide only teaches you how to make the Chem and their properties, it doesn't tell you good mixes. The same with viro, combinations are not explained in the guide.

- because doing something that may be kinda boring is still better to some than just watching other people play the game, not to mention there is no perfect mix so perhaps they're just exploring different combinations.

- it's not an antag, it's a retaliating ghost role. You playing it like an antag is what got you banned.

I have read it and I'm not impressed. Kill the threats and then return back to base. I'm also aware the console informs you when it is about to leave, so I have a hard time seeing some parts to your story.

[gamemanx8]

Why have snipers when u have pistols? Why even bother to have a chemistry/viro tutorial when there are guides out there? Why bother having a ghost role tutorial when a good chunk of players that even know that ghost roles are a thing already known how to do chem and viro or at the very least know how to read a guide. Why make a tutorial ghost role an antag? I could go on. Re-read the discussion above to get a better understanding

especially from an inexperienced trialmin

Daily reminder to stop doing this shit. A "trialmin" is an admin, full stop.

Doesn't mean they're not inexperienced especially when it shows in their bans

-Because snipers do more damage and stun. Pistols are the secondary sidearm. Take note it's a SNIPER as in snipers are thematically for long range and picking people off as opposed to an assault weapon like a rifle or shotgun.

- Because the chemistry guide only teaches you how to make the Chem and their properties, it doesn't tell you good mixes. The same with viro, combinations are not explained in the guide.

- because doing something that may be kinda boring is still better to some than just watching other people play the game, not to mention there is no perfect mix so perhaps they're just exploring different combinations.

- it's not an antag, it's a retaliating ghost role. You playing it like an antag is what got you banned.

I have read it and I'm not impressed. Kill the threats and then return back to base. I'm also aware the console informs you when it is about to leave, so I have a hard time seeing some parts to your story.

Console is destroyed. Whether or not its antag is heavily debatable

[Cobby]

That's fair then but To that I'd say you're revealing your cover checking for crew rather than heading back to base after you've defended yourself is still not ok and against the spirit of the "hidden facility" role.

Also no, it's not from a code standpoint and it certainly isn't admin-wise.

[feem]

As I said above, it is a ghost role, it is NOT a run-of-the-mill antag role. You didn't roll for it. You hovered over it and selected it. It wasn't created by effort by an antag (like a golem or xeno creature), it's a perk for any given ghost with pretty strict restrictions (though more relaxed than, say, a drone), NOT an expression of the rules or precedents permitting antagonists to do whatever they want.

[gamemanx8]

Ash walkers are also ghost roles yet they go on the station all the time

[feem]

You are an ash walker. Your tribe worships the Necropolis. The wastes are sacred ground, its monsters a blessed bounty. You have seen lights in the distance... they foreshadow the arrival of outsiders that seek to tear apart the Necropolis and its domain. Fresh sacrifices for your nest.

Compare to

You are a syndicate agent, employed in a top secret research facility developing biological weapons. Unfortunately, your hated enemy, Nanotrasen, has begun mining in this sector. Monitor enemy activity as best you can, and try to keep a low profile. DON'T abandon the base without good cause. Use the communication equipment to provide support to any field agents, and sow disinformation to throw Nanotrasen off your trail. Do not let the base fall into enemy hands!

And

You are a syndicate agent, employed in a top secret research facility developing biological weapons. Unfortunately, your hated enemy, Nanotrasen, has begun mining in this sector. Continue your research as best you can, and try to keep a low profile. DON'T abandon the base without good cause. The base is rigged with explosives should the worst happen, do not let the base fall into enemy hands!

Ash Walkers worship the necropolis, see the humans as destroyers, and are given implicit instructions to kill them ("fresh sacrifices"). They're also way more balanced for combat on the station than Lavaland Agents, because they aren't pre-equipped with a ton of weapons, they have to grow their base themselves. If and when they DO make it to the station, they're usually either not capable of putting up a reasonable fight or they've been playing long enough and have worked hard enough that it's reasonable to allow them to have their stand-off (for which they'll still get dunked nine times out of ten, even when they're geared up).

Lavaland Agents get an assortment of guns, chemistry and virology bombs, and all sorts of other stuff, most of which is available the moment they spawn in. Their focus isn't on the invaders, in their flavor text, it's on the research and the base, or sowing discontent within the Nanotrasen folks via the comms console.

They're given explicit orders not to let the base fall into enemy hands, which means your primary concern isn't valids, it's protecting yourselves and the base.

Do you see the difference?

[bman]

Round ID: 75464
This story also occured during this shift.

I'll give my side of the story for the sake of it.

>Be Vladimir Lenin, hear reports of operatives raiding cargo - they had just docked in and were murderboning technicians - and rally up people against them, a pretty fun firefight ensued but in the end someone went in with a combat shotgun and spammed it, absolutely destroying every single scientist. Their names were even shit like Putin Putin and Rush B, it was funny to see The Soviets vs The Syndicate part of the deal, even though I died in the firefight.

[MrAlphonzo]

Here are the logs: https://pastebin.com/P3pJHas3

Some things about your story are not adding up.

Why would you wait up until your appeal on the forums to mention that your arrival onto the station was completely accidental?

And, more importantly, why would four syndicate scientists all board the pod to the station just to "search it"?

All four of you, at the same time?

This really isn't adding up.

EDIT: Also, I have no memory of telling you you are not allowed to leave the Syndie Sci Base. Nor can I find any mention of it in the logs.

[gamemanx8]

Here are the logs: https://pastebin.com/P3pJHas3

Some things about your story are not adding up.

Why would you wait up until your appeal on the forums to mention that your arrival onto the station was completely accidental?

And, more importantly, why would four syndicate scientists all board the pod to the station just to "search it"?

All four of you, at the same time?

This really isn't adding up.

EDIT: Also, I have no memory of telling you you are not allowed to leave the Syndie Sci Base. Nor can I find any mention of it in the logs.

Nor did anyone else activate the shuttle... Also in the logs it seem you gave zero thought into the bans didn't even give me an explanation for why a week would be okay

[feem]

Since ghost roles are perks bound by specific rules and not regular jobs, they're treated a bit more harshly. I would probably have given you the same or a similar ban.

[Cobby]

It's another "Cobby sleeps on it" episode!

So what I'm going to do with this ban is unban you since I can appreciate the non-cookie cutter experience and don't think we should necessarily punish for that [although the portions where I and others agree you overstepped your boundaries are totally valid and in the future you should just not do it or at least ask for permission prior].

As kor has often said, some of the most interesting situations arrive from a bending/"loose" [see incorrect] interpretation of the rules. While I certainly don't encourage doing such since those rules are there for a reason, I am willing to let it slide under the idea that we are here to ensure people have an enjoyable experience rather than simply uphold the rules at face value. Ashwalkers assaulting a base and getting counter-attacked by syndicates who then take over a largely abandoned mining facility and "accidentally" get on the station for a final stand before their inevitable doom sounds pretty cool to me and the kinds of experiences admins should foster on occasion even if it doesn't necessarily tie neatly with our rules.

Again, do not treat this unban as a greenlight to act similarly in the future. Take this as an appreciation for creating a unique experience for players involved. If you have any questions/concerns feel free to talk to me on supportbus or forum PM. Have fun Spaceman!

[imblyings]

Alphonse seems to be onto something and chances are you're full of shit and all four of you boarded the thing hoping it would take off. Regardless if you can understand the point here is we don't want players taking the nuke ops ghost role solely to wait for an excuse to board the station and kill dudes with syndicate gear we're done here.