[FatalX1] <Common Thief> - Self Defense

[CommonThief]

BYOND account: Common Thief
Character name: Toby Lerone
Ban type:Server Ban
Ban length: 3 days
Ban reason: "As non-antag assistant, emptied buckshot into an engineer who had a flash, assuming the engineer was a rev or something, and killed him the engineer, this was wrong and someone having a flash does not give you the green light to murder them, learn the rules before you get permabanned"
Time ban was placed:2020-01-02 - 13:58:43
Server you were playing on when banned: Event Hall
Round ID in which ban was placed:127265
Your side of the story:I was wandering out, Pushed over a sec officer in Departures corridoor, and started getting tailed by an engineer, Thought he's just walking around but it was suspicious when he followed me down under bridge corridors.I Doubled back to check if he was following me, At this time he doubled back, this confirmed he was following me. Then he pulled out a flash. As no-one was around I thought he was taking this chance to flash and turn me into a rev. So i used the only thing I had available on me, and that happened to be a pump-action shotgun with buckshot. After I put three shells into him and he dropped, I took his flash and dragged him off to medbay, as I thought a head-Rev without his flash is pretty much useless, and even if he wasn't a rev, this was still the right thing to do. Later I heard that he died, Meaning the medical staff hadn't done their job and so, I believe the admin has thought I have RDM'ed someone randomly for holding a flash, Not realizing that he was clearly following me with it (The admin may not have gotten the full story and possibly have thought that I just killed someone for simply having a flash)
Why you think you should be unbanned: I believe that using the shotgun was fair for his suspicious behavior and bringing him to med-bay after claiming his flash was also fair. I get where the admin has come from, they may not have gotten the full picture about the engineer clearly following me. I'm a long time TG player and I fully understand the rules. There may be one definite rule I have broken here and that is not fully role-playing (As in not knowing what a revolutionary is, and not know what his intentions are with the flash) however this would mean, everyone shouting "Revs" in radio when a flash goes off, would also need to be punished as how can they know what a 'Rev' is. That's my thought process anyway.
References of good conduct:Being a long time TG player isn't much of a defense but during this time playing I have made many friends and made alot of peoples days, with silly humor, Fun Captain games like the 'Hunted' Mini-game and being a chill person overall, doing what needs to be done for the betterment of the station. The past few days I have slipped up and gained alot of admin attention (Negatively) however these have been slip-ups as I'm used to doing dodgy things from playing so long on Terry, There seems to be a tolerance difference for my behavior between Terry and Events Hall and appear to be getting far too carried away with my behavior,

[deedubya]

There may be one definite rule I have broken here and that is not fully role-playing (As in not knowing what a revolutionary is, and not know what his intentions are with the flash) however this would mean, everyone shouting "Revs" in radio when a flash goes off, would also need to be punished as how can they know what a 'Rev' is. That's my thought process anyway.

This is actually specifically protected under rule 2:

Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists

Knowledge of game mechanics and game modes is explicitly permitted to be translated to in-character action. That's why you hear people shout "REVS" whenever flashing starts happening in public places.

[teepeepee]

There may be one definite rule I have broken here and that is not fully role-playing (As in not knowing what a revolutionary is, and not know what his intentions are with the flash) however this would mean, everyone shouting "Revs" in radio when a flash goes off, would also need to be punished as how can they know what a 'Rev' is.

from https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules:

Do not use information gained outside of in character means.
I.e.. metagaming. This especially refers to communication between players outside of the game via things like Skype, known as metacomms. Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists, as well as keep persistent friendships or relationships with other characters when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

(emphasis and bigger font added by me)
this here says your character's knowledge of how revolutionaries work is okay, you've broken no rules, on that aspect at least
assuming the engineer was not actually a head revolutionary, since that's the only logical reason the admin would have applied the ban in first place, I would like to note the following:
pulling out a flash or walking with a flash out is not logged, and so could have been missed by the administrator
it is a detail that was brought up in this appeal: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 34&t=19212

walking around with a flash is unlogged

in the same appeal, the following was also said

You really can't claim you're not the instigator because they approached you with a flash in-hand. They were a roboticist, it's a basic part of their job's equipment.

if the ruling on this ban is to be consistent with past headmin rulings, it should be established whether a flash is part of an engineer's "job equipment" or not
that alone should be enough to rule on whether the engineer instigated a conflict or not, according to the standard established in the linked appeal's ruling that was upheld by the headmins at the time

[Fatal]

Owning, or pulling out a flash, does not make you a revolutionary, and someone following you with it and not using, equally does not give you full rights to empty buckshot into them

The round was not a revolutionary round, there was no reason for anyone to think that, and given that people had been yelling BORGS ROGUE for 10 minutes straight on the radio, the engineer had every right and need to have a flash to defend himself from the rogue borgs

If the engineer was running around flashing everyone with the flash, or showed some intention of harming you, or if you had have used less force than you did, this ban wouldn't have happened

The issue here, is that, by your logic:

Engineer has flash
Engineer must be a headrev
Engineer must be valid

Part of the game, is suspicion and paranoia, if you simply kill anyone who follows you with anyone vaguely resembling a weapon then the whole game turns into deathmatch

I do understand your logic, it's just, it's awful

[Fatal]

Alright, here's some logs just to clarify what happened clearly

Spoiler:

This is where you join:

[2020-01-02 13:47:40.757] ACCESS: Mob Login: Common Thief/(Common Thief) was assigned to a /mob/dead/new_player
[2020-01-02 13:47:40.761] GAME: Common Thief/(Common Thief) Client Common Thief/(Common Thief) has taken ownership of mob Common Thief(/mob/dead/new_player) (start area (8, 174, 1))

3 minutes later you already have a disabler

[2020-01-02 13:50:44.955] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Central Primary Hallway (Central Primary Hallway (128, 114, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:50:45.011] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Jamal Ginsberg/(August Bickerson) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (Central Primary Hallway (128, 114, 2))

Here's you being a dick in the bar

Spoiler:

[2020-01-02 13:50:54.746] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shoved Seth Tzeentch/(Herbert M) with onto the reinforced table (table) (NEWHP: 86.3) (Bar (132, 127, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:50:55.785] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has kicks Seth Tzeentch/(Herbert M) with onto their side (paralyzing) (NEWHP: 86.3) (Bar (132, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:50:55.785] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shoved Seth Tzeentch/(Herbert M) (NEWHP: 86.3) (Bar (132, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:50:57.769] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has thrown the glass of ale (Bar (131, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:50:57.837] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has splashed (thrown) Ale [floor] with in Bar (132, 130, 2) (Bar (131, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:50:58.819] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has thrown the space beer (Bar (131, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:00.144] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has thrown the glass of Space Cola (Bar (131, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:00.219] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has splashed (thrown) Cola [floor] with in Bar (132, 130, 2) (Bar (131, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:01.460] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has thrown the glass of absinthe (Bar (131, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:01.471] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has threw and hit Seth Tzeentch/(Herbert M) with the glass of absinthe (NEWHP: 86.3) (Bar (131, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:01.472] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has splashed Seth Tzeentch/(Herbert M) with /datum/reagent/consumable/ethanol/absinthe (10), (NEWHP: 86.3) (Bar (131, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:03.493] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has thrown the glass of Dr. Gibb (Bar (131, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:03.569] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has splashed (thrown) Dr. Gibb [floor] with in Bar (133, 130, 2) (Bar (132, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:04.961] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has thrown the space beer (Bar (132, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:07.239] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has thrown the glass of rum (Bar (133, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:07.293] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has splashed (thrown) Rum [floor] with in Bar (134, 130, 2) (Bar (133, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:09.827] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has thrown the glass of cognac (Bar (132, 128, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:51:09.896] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has splashed (thrown) Cognac [floor] with in Bar (133, 130, 2) (Bar (132, 128, 2))

[2020-01-02 13:51:17.775] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has thrown Champagne (Central Primary Hallway (126, 140, 2))

Apparently having grown bored of throwing the bar around, you wander off, and shove the engineer Diego into a security officer

[2020-01-02 13:52:13.923] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shoved Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with into Robert Robust (NEWHP: 100) (Aft Primary Hallway (107, 108, 2))

Apparently he follows you with a flash, because it was never used it is unlogged, but lets say that he did

You blow him away with 3 buckshot blasts

Spoiler:

[2020-01-02 13:52:30.992] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (96, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:30.993] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (96, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:30.993] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (96, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:30.994] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (96, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:30.995] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (96, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:30.995] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (96, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.078] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 100) (Command Hallway (95, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.080] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 88.2) (Command Hallway (95, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.097] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 76.4) (Command Hallway (95, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.099] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 64.6) (Command Hallway (95, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.100] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 52.8) (Command Hallway (95, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.124] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 41) (Command Hallway (95, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.912] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [�Command Hallway vent pump #1] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (91, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.913] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [�Command Hallway vent pump #1] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (91, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.914] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [�Command Hallway vent pump #1] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (91, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.915] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [�Command Hallway vent pump #1] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (91, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.915] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [�Command Hallway vent pump #1] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (91, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:31.916] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [�Command Hallway vent pump #1] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (91, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:32.123] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 29.2) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:33.066] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (92, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:33.067] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (92, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:33.067] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (92, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:33.068] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (92, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:33.068] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (92, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:33.069] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (92, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:33.070] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 18.9) (Command Hallway (92, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:33.074] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 6.4) (Command Hallway (92, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.772] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (NEWHP: -5.4) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.773] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -5.4) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.775] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (NEWHP: -17.9) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.777] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -17.9) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.779] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (NEWHP: -30.4) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.780] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -30.4) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.781] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (NEWHP: -42.9) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.783] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -42.9) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.784] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (NEWHP: -55.4) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.786] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -55.4) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.787] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has fired at Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet from Command Hallway (NEWHP: -67.9) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:52:34.788] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has shot Kranklis/(Diego Addison) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -67.9) (Command Hallway (90, 126, 2))

Now you do grab him here, presumably to take him to medical

[2020-01-02 13:52:47.958] ATTACK: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) has grabbed Kranklis/(Diego Addison) passive grab (NEWHP: -83.7) (Command Hallway (92, 126, 2))

This is where your victim died, in medical, even the best medical staff are unlikely to save your patient when he's on -83 before you even move him

[2020-01-02 13:53:07.167] ATTACK: Kranklis/(Diego Addison) has died (BRUTE: 180.4, BURN: 0, TOX: 0, OXY: 21.6667, CLONE: 0) (Medbay Central (94, 104, 2))

Right after he died, you said the entirety of all you said for the entire round to try get some attention to him

[2020-01-02 13:53:10.627] SAY: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) "hELP" (Medbay Central (93, 104, 2))
[2020-01-02 13:53:16.541] SAY: Common Thief/(Toby Lerone) "Mr man here is dying" (Medbay Central (93, 104, 2))

Alright, main issues here

You had a disabler as evidenced by you using it on someone previously in the round, as well a shotgun, you had two security weapons and had every chance to disable or end the situation non-lethally, however, you chose not to

You killed an engineer for having a flash, whilst carrying a disabler and a lethal shotgun, I would say that's quite hypocritical, sure, he COULD have been a revolutionary for having the flash, but then, he wasn't, and you made no effort to check if he was or not

You started the situation by pushing him, you instigated the conflict, and you never said anything in the entire round until he was dead, to try and get him to stop following you, and even a single shot from your disabler or shotgun would have likely been enough to dissuade his following you


The reason the ban length is 3 days rather than the usual 1 for unjustified kill is also because you have a pretty long list of notes and bans, and I felt, and still feel, after looking through the logs, that this was a massive case of over-escalation

Unless you can provide any evidence to prove otherwise this is denied

[CommonThief]

Nope, That's all good, I had no idea it was him who I pushed, so he had every right to follow me with a flash, This was over escalation and I take the 3-day ban