[Krusvik] - Always Bet Rare Akuma - (Except when he loses)

Rare Akuma · Post by **Rare Akuma** » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:06 pm #214623

Byond account and character name: Always Bet Rare Akuma / Lynsey Baker

Banning admin: Krusvik

Ban type (What are you banned from?):Weekban from scientist, dayban.

Ban reason and length:

You have been banned by krusvik.
Reason: Slippery slope gimmick of creating sentinent mobs, including volunteer headslugs, to hunt each other. Resulted in killing a crew member by having them turned valid under the loyalty prompt and then polymorphed and death bolted by the other sentient xenos. Would have been a warning if not for turning someone into a ling only to have them killed.
This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 1440 minutes.

You have been jobbanned by krusvik from: Scientist.
The reason is: Slippery slope gimmick of creating sentinent mobs, including volunteer headslugs, to hunt each other. Resulted in killing a crew member by having them turned valid under the loyalty prompt and then polymorphed and death bolted by the other sentient xenos. Would have been a warning if not for turning someone into a ling only to have them killed.
This jobban will be lifted in 10080 minutes.

Time ban was placed (including time zone): 6:18 central.

Your side of the story: Round starts, one of the admins makes all ghosts visible (And I think able to throw objects.) So Krusviks'/Mehkis/Isanes ghost starts orbiting me and breaking various windows/grilles in xenobio/robotics and around science. One of the ghosts starts tossing me around/on tables and eventually throws me so hard I leave my body. I re-enter it.

Queue 15~ or so minutes of xenobio autism and I have myself a bunch of sentient potions and gold cores to spawn mobs with. I ask on the radio if anyone wants to be a changeling tell them to come to xenobio.

Someone does, I tell them to kill themself and once they do, sentience the headslug and it infests the body, popping out a brand spanking new ling. I send it to go do harmless objectives like get an RCD/captain's pants/whatever. Then I give it a final mission and tell it to go do whatever as long as it doesn't get me in trouble. Also in the middle of here at some point a traitor attacks me and my carp kills it/my ling eats their body and opens their PDA for me.

I think "Hey, that ling is probably bored with nothing to do." And I'm pretty bored in xenobio, so I figure it'd be fun to send three chaos magicarp to go fight it. So I tell them kill her and hurt nobody else. And send a red magicarp with the healing bolt to keep her alive and hurt nobody. Woe is me for trying to do something fun while not an admin I guess.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
1: They were sentient mobs I made. I can do what I want with them as has been policy for awhile afaik.
2: If you want to look at this like a "oh you just made them a changeling so you could kill them" standpoint(which is not the case) Then it seems pretty fair to me to trade validness for ling powers.
3: I was the one that brought them into the round (The ghost that got the body wasn't even the person that came to xenobio).
4: I had every intention and ability to bring them back. I can't see a scenario where my carps killed them that I couldn't strap their corpse to a chair and have my carp shoot them with change/resurrection bolts until they're at least back to human/alive status. (Which WAS my intention until I got adminpmed over this until the end of the round)
5: I feel like Krusvik is projecting their thoughts onto what they THINK the rules are.
6: Getting daybanned for taking a player out of the round(that had started as an observer)(THAT WAS ALSO TOTALLY VALID FOR ME TO DO SO) when the same admin presses a bunch of buttons, kills a bunch of people and it's totally okay because they're an admin seems unreasonable to me.

To be honest this seems wholly ridiculous to me. I know a headmin won't look at this until at least the dayban has expired. But I'd like to play scientist before a week is up.

Am I in the wrong here?

Full un-edited logs of the round for those interested

Spoiler:

The conversation between me and Krusvik.

Spoiler:

-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Krusvik: Why did you send the Blobbernaught after Zoey Goodman?
PM to-Admins: I thought it'd be funny to have my sentient creatures fight each other for my amusement.
PM to-Admins: Is that...a problem?
Admin PM from-Krusvik: So you offered brainslugs to people so you could valid them with other sentient mobs?
PM to-Admins: I'm not really validing them. It's not like I'm taking them out forever. I have a healing carp on hand to revive anyone killed. It's just something for them to do.
PM to-Admins: Plus I mean, she's a ling. She can just revive herself.
Admin PM from-Krusvik: She's not a ling anymore if she gets bolt of changed by a chaos carp.
Admin PM from-Krusvik: Yeah I'm not too happy with how this turned out, I get the tongue in cheek part of it, but in reality what happened is you made people valid and then killed them.
PM to-Admins: I mean, shit, if you wanna look at it like that then it seems pretty fair for someone to trade validness for ling powers then. Worse comes to worse one of my magicarp can change her back to a human and then revive her.
Admin PM from-Krusvik: I bet you have no idea what Zoey was turned into and how to bring her back after you sent shit to kill her.
PM to-Admins: What would it matter what she was turned into? I can't think of a single mob type that the carp can't shoot, even while dead.
Admin PM from-Krusvik: Because she's still dead.
Admin PM from-Krusvik: In addition, being a ling doesn't make you automatically valid or an antag. It can be construed as an IC issue if someone kills the ling without knowing they were headslugged, but if the person is well aware and killed them just cause it's really poor. Furthermore, she's only valid to you due to the loyalty prompt once you feed them the potion.
PM to-Admins: I don't know. It seems like you're taking this like I made her a changeling just so I could kill her or something which isn't the case.(edited)
Admin PM from-Krusvik: I can accept that. However the reality of the situation is you did a irresponsible xeno gimmick and you got two people (that I know of) killed and taken out of the round.
Admin PM from-Krusvik: Connection dropped for 15 seconds.
Admin PM from-Krusvik: Right then. I'm under the impression you understand my reasoning.
PM to-Admins: yeah.

Poorman · Post by **Poorman** » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:19 pm #214629

Wow. I was one of the magicarp in this round that hunted the changeling. I never figured out what happened to them, but this is just stupid.

Xenobio creatures are just fucking playthings of xenobiologists. I had actually spawned in as a headslug earlier, but when I couldn't actually take a body they just killed me, and I wasn't mad. They bring people back into the round and have full control over them. They get that privilege and responsibility, and there was nothing wrong with what Lynsey did.

Zoey was also a changeling, which is totally a valid kill regardless of whether or not they were given antagonist objectives. A person decides to spice up a lowpop round by pitting two teams of xenobio creatures against each other and they get a weekban for it? Are you kidding me? If you don't want to be subject to the will of another player, you don't have to click yes on "do you want to be a headslug?" It's plain and simple.

Honestly, I think admins that ban like this shouldn't be admins. If a Chaplain shaded a traitor, then told the station they'd give their chaplain weapon to whoever brought them its ashes, would you ban the Chaplain? Fuck no. You gave a dead player another chance at a round, they are subject to the new conditions on being put back into the round.

Neither me nor the other carp attempted to harm anyone other then Zoey. In fact, I revived the magicarp when he got killed by something, who was supposedly on the opposite team. If Xenobio scientists don't have control over the creatures they create, then you might as well just get rid of that prompt that says they're their master. If a xenobio scientist tells you to kill yourself, you fucking do it. You follow their orders, no matter what. If you can't deal with that, then don't play as xenobio creatures.

TechnoAlchemist · Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:15 pm

Xenobiologists have always had control over there own creations, and having them fight each other is well within the role of "master" that the xenobiologist has.

NSSherlock · Post by **NSSherlock** » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:23 pm #214904

Since I was actually two of the carps involved, I figured I should get off my lazy ass, finally make a forum account, and post my two cents.

First, ABRA, I think you're kind of glossing over the fact that there was a bit of time that elapsed between sending out the chaos magicarps to hunt Zoey down, and subsequently sending out the resurrection-magicarp. There was enough time for me to find Zoey in Chemistry, try to kill her, loose the fight but succeed in attracting the attention of the other two carps, watch them chase her to the bridge, loose track of her (I thought she'd teleported since there were portals flying left and right, but I guess she got transmuted into a slime and died) and then eventually accept the prompt to become another magicarp. In the interim, you had also made (or at least tried to make) one or more sentient blobbernauts. Only after figuring out what my magic was did you send me to protect Zoey. I failed in my mission (not knowing that Zoey was apparently now a slime), but I later (after I died in a grav gun accident, and before I was revived on the shuttle) discerned that Zoey was already dead by the time I received my orders.

I didn't ahelp the situation, but I have to say that in addition to the result for Zoey, it put me in an odd spot, since I was tasked to interfere with the assigned task of the other carps in a way that would have inevitably brought us into conflict had Zoey still been alive (and you clearly had every reason to believe she was), but we were implicitly forbidden to harm each other ("don't harm anyone else" would seem to include other carps). The chaos carps were not aware of my mission, and I don't know what would have happened if I had been able to heal/res Zoey. On refection, it seems to me that the whole thing was kind of in the same category as deliberately giving silicons impossible/contradictory tasks, and that it's at least mildly dickish when you do it as a non-antag. Maybe that wasn't the intent, but at the least it wasn't well thought-out.

Secondly, and I hope I'm not overstepping to point this out, but several players did try to give you a friendly warning about being more careful with xenobio and sentient mobs a couple of days ago after the incident with the holodeck.

Poorman wrote: Neither me nor the other carp attempted to harm anyone other then Zoey. In fact, I revived the magicarp when he got killed by something, who was supposedly on the opposite team.

That's the complicated part: AFAIK, you were never told of my orders, so you had no way of knowing that I was tasked with preventing you from carrying out yours. And that's where the problem arises: what would you have done if I had healed Zoey in your sight? Your orders didn't allow you to attack me (or me you), but would you have realized that in the heat of the moment? I'm not sure I would have. I suppose there's a question for policy discussion there, but like I said, at the very least it put us all in a potentially difficult situation regarding compliance with our orders. You just didn't know it at the time because you only knew your orders, not mine. But I (as a player, though not IC) knew both sets of orders, since I had been one of the chaos magicarp first.

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:53 pm #214905

Was observing this round up until I went to bed right after Lynsey made the changeling. Wasn't sure what was up with the ghosts at the start of the round, just that we were all orbiting Skylar's ghost or something, and moving around the map at sonic speeds breaking every window and grille. The part where you got ghosted I'm fairly sure was due to the admin slamming you into a wall a billion times at once, because your body was straight up dead for a moment.

There were a couple people in ghost chat nursing a hateboner for you, and some outrage over you daring to make sentient mobs as a scientist, though this was possibly because of you doing so the previous two rounds as an antag and setting them loose on the crew. One of them did become your second golem I think.

I could understand this ban if the sentient mobs killed an actual crew member, but it sounds like they didn't. And from my understanding, ghost roles don't really have much rule protection or whatever.

Krusvik · Post by **Krusvik** » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:00 am #214908

I've thought about this in greater detail this evening, and I will be lifting both bans. Both of our opinions about the subject and the grey area that prompted me to place this ban are in Akuma's post, so there's little more to add other than I admit I was wrong.

In hindsight, this was a fun player event that I was too quick to punish for a single hitch.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:43 am #214967

The only crime here is that he didn't build a gladiator arena so everyone could watch his creations fight to the death

/tg/Station 13

[Krusvik] - Always Bet Rare Akuma - (Except when he loses)

[Krusvik] - Always Bet Rare Akuma - (Except when he loses)

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