[Saegmir] Two AI Bans for Forum Posts

[ShadowDimentio]

Byond account and character name: David273, N/A

Admin: Saegmir

Time incident occured: A few months ago and just the other day.

Detailed summary: Two times, TWO TIMES he's done this. First time I was posting a story and some random, totally uninvolved third party complained about how I stealthbolted some doors at the AI sat. I tell the guy to take it to ban requests if he ~really~ felt the need, and Saegmir appears and just bans me on the spot, then LIES in the ban itself. The door wasn't unpowered.

Banned from AI, Cyborg - Bolted and depowered door as AI to meta nuke ops. Rather than take the simple suggestion of "stop" on the forums, he wants this dragged out into a ban request/appeal.

Next ban. Some guy in the policy forum is calling for harsher AI policies after the AI refused to let him in HoP during rev and he got mad about it. I'm posting my opinion and the children are getting upset that I don't think that the AI should be a doorknob to every room on the station, no questions asked. Then they start calling for a ban against me, and again the hero Saegmir is here to save the day and bans me, again, over FORUM POSTS.

Banned from AI, Cyborg - Once again we've reached a point where you think you're above following silicon policy and simple law 2 orders while asimov. Take a long time off silicon roles.

This needs to stop.

[Saegrimr]

Have you considered actually reading up on and following silicon policy, then?

I'm not sure why your first ban was removed without an appeal, and the person who removed it doesn't even remember either.

[ShadowDimentio]

It was removed because I spoke to a headmin about how shitty the ban was and they agreed and lifted it.

[Saegrimr]

Okay, so are you going to be a proper asimov doorknob and open doors for people because both your Law 2 and silicon policy say you have no choice?

[ShadowDimentio]

Sure when there's not a really, ~really~ good, you know, LAW 1 reason why I shouldn't. Unless we just want to forget about that. That's cool too.

[Saegrimr]

Then it better be really REALLY damn good reason like the other side of the door is literally the fucking sun, and not "I don't want to open EVA because lel redtext get fucked greyshirt" or "If I open this door someone else might run in behind you and slip someone for a joke then that guy will get mad and punch him LAW 1 POTENTIAL FIST FIGHT IN THE FUTURE."

The first ban didn't even need to be a ban if you just took the hint from an admin telling you to stop instead of "LOL MAKE A BAN REQUEST THEN".

This ban is to get your attention that no, you are not above silicon policy, and telling you to stop being a shit on the forums clearly didn't work last time.

[ShadowDimentio]

"I don't want to open EVA because lel redtext get fucked greyshirt"

Congratulations for totally assuming and being dead wrong. Gold star. No. Opening isn't about LEL GET REDTEXT CUCK HUUUEEEE

It's about how the station explodes roughly five times every shift, and if the greytide has already run off with all of them because I'm ~PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE~ of refusing to open a door no matter what then PEOPLE WILL DIE.

That seems like a PRETTY GOOD motivation for an AI to keep EVA locked up unless needed.

The first ban didn't even need to be a ban if you just took the hint from an admin telling you to stop instead of "LOL MAKE A BAN REQUEST THEN".

I'm glad we agree that it didn't need to be a ban in the first place. But really I'd argue that the admin jumping on every tiny opportunity to ban someone for an ultimately insignificant mistake is the problem here, not the player that told the uninvolved third party, not you, to take the complaining to the right place if they really felt it was needed.

This ban is to get your attention that no, you are not above silicon policy, and telling you to stop being a shit on the forums clearly didn't work last time.

Sorry for being, y'know, HUMAN and, y'know, not just being a fucking AI policy machine. Sorry that I didn't bother reading the vomit that is the rules page, and the 2000 words of RIGID CONDUCT that only the admins and rules lawyers know by heart. Sorry that I had the AUDACITY to play by the spirit of AI and have some interesting fun interpreting my laws in high-stress situations rather than just dropping the game for five minutes to read what the wiki says to do.

[Saegrimr]

It's about how the station explodes roughly five times every shift, and if the greytide has already run off with all of them because I'm ~PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE~ of refusing to open a door no matter what then PEOPLE WILL DIE.

Then stop playing silicons.

And stop assuming people are going to bomb before bombs happen, for the same reason the atmos tech isn't allowed to unwrench plasma to distro in case you get subverted. We call that metagaming.

I'm glad we agree that it didn't need to be a ban in the first place. But really I'd argue that the admin jumping on every tiny opportunity to ban someone for an ultimately insignificant mistake is the problem here, not the player that told the uninvolved third party, not you, to take the complaining to the right place if they really felt it was needed.

Yes because outright admitting to, and bragging about, breaking the rules and then not listening when being told to stop really means i'm jumping on every tiny opportunity to put the poor honest hard working silicon down. Shame on me.

Sorry for being, y'know, HUMAN and, y'know, not just being a fucking AI policy machine. Sorry that I didn't bother reading the vomit that is the rules page, and the 2000 words of RIGID CONDUCT that only the admins and rules lawyers know by heart. Sorry that I had the AUDACITY to play by the spirit of AI and have some interesting fun interpreting my laws in high-stress situations rather than just dropping the game for five minutes to read what the wiki says to do.

Then stop playing silicons. I've even helped you with this.

If you wanna bullshit about the "spirit" of AI, then i'm going to bullshit about the "spirit" of not being a spiteful douchebag blatantly breaking rules and saying its not your problem because you can't be assed to follow them because READING IS HARD, especially when nearly everybody else is telling you to stop.

You can feed that crap to someone else who might believe you.

[Cik]

>i didn't read AI policy and don't know how to play AI, also i'm confrontational about it even though i'm literally in the wrong

???????????????????????

the ban is going a little far i guess but tbh dude your attitude and game knowledge are both really substandard

if you were acting in good faith and were just ignorant it'd be okay but it seems like you have exactly the wrong frame of mind

[duncathan]

Doesn't AI policy specifically forbid barring people entry from EVA?

also
>this guy is running for headmin

[Saegrimr]

Yes, it specifically says "EVA and the like are not permitted to have access denied; greentext (antagonists completing objectives) is not human harm. Secure Tech Storage can be kept as secure as your upload as long as the Upload boards are there."

But you see, he hasn't read silicon policy and is instead acting in the "spirit of AI" which absolves him of established rules.

[ShadowDimentio]

Well good thing we had that rule set in place, otherwise you wouldn't be able to throw a SILICON BAN at me without looking totally petty. No, now you just look like the heroic admin saving players everywhere from being told no once by the AI.

Because I mean god forbid the players have ANY latitude when playing AI. No, heavens, that might actually cause some fun to occur!

[lumipharon]

B-but admins, the big meanie AI didn't do what I said, ban them!

Like do you have nothing better to do than complain? Jesus. If you're stuck in space and scream for the AI to let you in and they refuse, that's one thing. But the AI is allowed to tell you no, it doesn't have to let you in EVA two minutes after round start.

The crap you were spouting had nothing to do with what some guy pointed out at almost the end of the thread.

[ShadowDimentio]

It goes to verify the character of the person that was complaining in the first place.

A clown that didn't get to have all access and murder the HoP in one fell swoop.

[Saegrimr]

If you don't like the policy, go win the headmin elections and change it. Being a snarky tit only works when you didn't just get banned for admitting to not reading, caring, or following the rules.

Also good luck on that headmin thing if you don't even know the current server policies.

[IrishWristWatch0]

have you tried not having a terrible attitude?

[ShadowDimentio]

I can't help it.

No I don't really expect that to win anybody over to my side but it's true

[Cik]

Well good thing we had that rule set in place, otherwise you wouldn't be able to throw a SILICON BAN at me without looking totally petty. No, now you just look like the heroic admin saving players everywhere from being told no once by the AI.

Because I mean god forbid the players have ANY latitude when playing AI. No, heavens, that might actually cause some fun to occur!

you have plenty of latitude when you play AI, and if you don't think you do you're doing it incorrectly

you just don't have latitude to refuse orders you are obligated by the literally fundamental core of your thought process to obey

i guess basically why are you playing sillicon if you don't like following the laws

i find it fun i guess but maybe i'm the weird one here

[ShadowDimentio]

I find it fun too, as the gameplay's very different from everything else. It's just that I hate the tiders that start yelling at you because you haven't opened the door in the two microseconds since they've asked.

[sirnat]

This dude was basically saying in my thread multiple times that he gave no shit about the policy and would do what he wanted as Ai.

[peoplearestrange]

I think we can probably resolve this now.

Saegrimr is enforcing the current silicon policy and hasn't done anything to warrant a complaint.

Silicons can be frustrating sometimes to play, but you really have to throw up your hands and go "this is the best I can do". A silicon role is not an easy one to play, but as soon as you realise you aren't on NT's side or the crews or anyone's side, but more of an awkward 3rd party tasked with the impossible mission of trying to stop them tearing themselves apart, then the more you'll understand your role and might start enjoying it as such.

Or be the cheeky AI that obey's law 2 to the letter and watches things fall apart with a "I warned you" smirk as the crew tries to fix a hull breach with 0 EVA suits. Let them fuck themselves over in the long run.


Anyhow I'll close this in 24hours unless a headmin suggests otherwise.

[TheNightingale]

It's a little sketchy to drop a siliconban for forum posts without in-game evidence to back it up (i.e. do you do this in-game, or are you just hypothesising?), but I really don't know what you expected.

Remember, you can always delay an order for a little while (giving you the time to tell Security/Command and see if they're okay with it), but if you don't get a countermand, you'll have to do it. A Law 1 justification like "we might need the suits" only works as a delay, not as a reason to lock them out - because the greyshirt needs a suit in an emergency too, and all human lives are equal.

[Grey] ";AI LAW TOO OPEN DOAH"
[AI] ";Juuust a minute... tracking..."
[AI] ":s Hey, Grey wants access to EVA, but I have a feeling he's going to run away with all the suits..."
[HoS] ":s Alright, let him in, but close the door behind him. We're en route."
[AI] "; Sorry for the wait. Complying."

[CPTANT]

It's a little sketchy to drop a siliconban for forum posts without in-game evidence to back it up (i.e. do you do this in-game, or are you just hypothesising?), but I really don't know what you expected.

Remember, you can always delay an order for a little while (giving you the time to tell Security/Command and see if they're okay with it), but if you don't get a countermand, you'll have to do it. A Law 1 justification like "we might need the suits" only works as a delay, not as a reason to lock them out - because the greyshirt needs a suit in an emergency too, and all human lives are equal.

[Grey] ";AI LAW TOO OPEN DOAH"
[AI] ";Juuust a minute... tracking..."
[AI] ":s Hey, Grey wants access to EVA, but I have a feeling he's going to run away with all the suits..."
[HoS] ":s Alright, let him in, but close the door behind him. We're en route."
[AI] "; Sorry for the wait. Complying."

FUCK NO.

what don't you understand about just opening the god damn door?

[TheNightingale]

It's just a game, there's no need to get upset. I present the Silicon Policy. (You did read that, right?)

When given an order likely to cause you grief if completed, you can announce it as loudly and in whatever terms you like except for explicitly asking that it be overridden. You can say you don't like the order, that you don't want to follow it, etc., you can say that you sure would like it and it would be awfully convenient if someone ordered you not to do it, and you can ask if anyone would like to make you not do it. However, you cannot stall indefinitely and if nobody orders you otherwise, you must execute the order.

[Saegrimr]

It's a little sketchy to drop a siliconban for forum posts without in-game evidence to back it up (i.e. do you do this in-game, or are you just hypothesising?), but I really don't know what you expected.

The first time this was an issue was a little greentext story of his about how he totally rekt a syndieborg by stealth bolting his core, and was simply told to stop and that should have been the end of it. If "Hey heres a long story of what I did and no I don't care make a ban request about it" isn't enough evidence, then...

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 00#p139047

[CPTANT]

It's just a game, there's no need to get upset. I present the Silicon Policy. (You did read that, right?)

When given an order likely to cause you grief if completed, you can announce it as loudly and in whatever terms you like except for explicitly asking that it be overridden. You can say you don't like the order, that you don't want to follow it, etc., you can say that you sure would like it and it would be awfully convenient if someone ordered you not to do it, and you can ask if anyone would like to make you not do it. However, you cannot stall indefinitely and if nobody orders you otherwise, you must execute the order.

You do realize opening EVA in no way even remotely causes you grief, right?

[peoplearestrange]

Upon looking at this further, Saegrimr did you look up the logs before apply the ban from the "Stories of awesome" thread?

Also an FYI to all:
"The core and upload may be bolted without prompting or prior reason. The AI core airlocks cannot be bolted and depowered at roundstart however, unless there is reasonable suspicion an attack on the core will take place. "
So the core can be bolted, airlocks can be bolted with probable cause of attack.
So it depends on what you mean by "stealth bolts", if you bolted the entire sat at round start = BAD, if it was just the core/internal doors = OK.

[lzimann]

Stealth bolt goes for disabling power + bolting the door I believe, which makes impossible for a borg get past, which is BAD to do at round start for no reason other than "get rekt possible syndieborgs"

[ColonicAcid]

congrats guys you all have just written an asimov novel right here.

This is why asimov is trash as anything but a plot device.

[TheNightingale]

Stealthbolting is door bolts with the bolt lights turned off. It looks like a normal door until you try and open it.
Toggling the door bolts and depowering the APC isn't stealthbolting, that's just bad and wrong.

[ShadowDimentio]

Upon looking at this further, Saegrimr did you look up the logs before apply the ban from the "Stories of awesome" thread?

Also an FYI to all:
"The core and upload may be bolted without prompting or prior reason. The AI core airlocks cannot be bolted and depowered at roundstart however, unless there is reasonable suspicion an attack on the core will take place. "
So the core can be bolted, airlocks can be bolted with probable cause of attack.
So it depends on what you mean by "stealth bolts", if you bolted the entire sat at round start = BAD, if it was just the core/internal doors = OK.

To answer your question: No he never did to my knowledge, because fuck evidence or getting my story straight I want to ban a guy

Thank you for verifying that I didndu nuffin the first time around though, which is what I was saying the whole time. And yes,to confirm because our wonderful admins apparently don't know what stealthbolting is and just assumed what it was, it's bolting a door and disabling the lights. The power is still on and everything, the door is just stealthily bolted.

[Saegrimr]

To answer your question: No he never did to my knowledge, because fuck evidence or getting my story straight I want to ban a guy

I got your story, you freely posted it. When told to stop, you ignored it and continued to act smug without hestitation.
Just like this time around when people are telling you how to not be a fucking retard as an AI, your response is "Not my problem because the rules page is too long."

So sure, we can go ahead and assume that the assaulting borg is retarded and didn't even attempt to toggle bolts.

You still freely admit you have not read, nor care for the simple fucking written policy on silicons and do not follow them.
My favorite part is how this is an admin complaint that i'm making sure you stop breaking the rules rather than a ban appeal of "I'll stop breaking the rules."

[ShadowDimentio]

Sure, lets just conveniently forget about how you banned me the first time around for, plain and simple, a rule that doesn't exist, as PaS has kindly pointed out. What's your excuse for that? That I was being a dick to you by telling the guy that was also complaining about me breaking a rule that doesn't exist to make a formal ban request? How terrible.

[Saegrimr]

Considered reading the thread? I've already repeated myself like 4 times.

Oh i'm sorry, I forgot you're incapable of reading as you've stated before when it comes to silicon policy.

[TheNightingale]

What's your excuse for that? That I was being a dick to you? That's also not a rule.

It... kind of is. It's literally the first rule.

1. Don't be a dick

I mean, you've already said you didn't actually read the rules, but...

[TechnoAlchemist]

LMAO this is iconic

[lumipharon]

10/10
Can we just ban him out right for self confessed rule 1 violation now?
He literally refuses to think that he is wrong and EVERYONE ELSE is right.

[Saegrimr]

Only if I get to do it in "the spirit of rule 1" instead of actually following the rule.

[ShadowDimentio]

>Self confessed rule 1 violation

Holy shit, nice memes

[Shadowlight213]

Holy shit this is getting retarded.
I'd say you were rules lawyering, but you aren't actually looking/caring about the actual rules.
So, would it be spirit lawyering? Regardless, I'm going to go bug a headmin before this starts devolving into shitposting. Neither of you seem intent on budging from your positions and I sense memes on the horizon.

[Cik]

saegrimr is the hero the server deserves

[lollerderby]

Banning for posts in policy discussion is kind of meh, but if you play silicon anywhere near the way your posts would indicate you should be jobbanned and your complete inability to accept correction doesn't help.

[ShadowDimentio]

Banning for posts in policy discussion is kind of meh, but if you play silicon anywhere near the way your posts would indicate you should be jobbanned and your complete inability to accept correction doesn't help.

I'm glad we agree that at the least Saegmir should have watched me play AI once, if only to humor the idea that I might not be that bad.

[Shaps-cloud]

Honestly when you flaunt around saying "lol I don't give a fuck about what admins say about the rules" you really have no one but yourself to blame when they think poorly of you.

[ShadowDimentio]

There's a pretty big difference between "I think that guy's a dick" and what's going on here

[IrishWristWatch0]

There's a pretty big difference between "I think that guy's a dick" and what's going on here

nope

[John_Oxford]

my fucking sides, jesus

"lol wat r u mad cuz i was bein a dick, lol that aint a rule"


1. Don't be a dick



literally, i fucking get bawked at by admins for doing stupid shit to, but even i dont do stupid shit like "OH LOL U WAS BEING DICK, THAT R NOT RULE HEHUHUHEUHEU"

please, break your computer in half and throw it in a river.

[peoplearestrange]

This is becoming a stupid peanut gallery for involved (and apparently now those who aren't) I'm locking this thread, even though it's not technically resolved yet. Both op and the administration in question have said their piece. If further evidence needs to be added PM and I'll temp unlock. Otherwise a headmin say on the matter can be added.