[Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
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- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:47 pm
- Byond Username: DrSID666
[Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
BYOND account: DrSID666
Character name: Bronte Wheeler
Ban type: Ban
Ban length: 3 days
Ban reason: In round 188832, escalated a fight to killing after instigating it by using cqc to forcefeed another crewmate "refuses to eat" is not a valid reason to instigate a fight. This ban (BanID #61991) was applied by Lulufren on
Time ban was placed: 2202-08-19 13:35:19
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 188835
Your side of the story: As a chef, served food in condiment bottles named FAT which contained only nutriments. A person, who ahelped me, came to kitchen demanding food. He was given a reply that there is food in the bottle named FAT. Person refused to drink nutriments and demanded Normal food. Demand was dismissed and he started comlaining more and causing trouble by using telekinesis on food ingredients on tables at the kitchen. As the resaul - I, as chef, came to him and using CQC knocked him unconcious and forcefeeded him the nutrients. As the resault - person was fed, no damage was done to him, nothing was looted, he was untouched and at the same spot. When he regain conciousness he said something and left the area. The conflict was assumed as resolved. But no. I noticed a person asking questions about mechanis involving CQC and how to deal with it. After some time someone from direction where science is teleported all food ingredients from a table in the kitchen, which i kept for making butter bear (raw meat and buter) A little later same person came to kitchen not only with telekinesis but with HULK, most noticable. They started trying to attack me with telekinesis and when i came close to them to try and knockdown again to throw them out (which didnt work due to HULK mutation) they started beating me next to the kitchen counter. Seeing how this person cannot calm down over the food and escalating furthermore, enstead of reporting to my authorities or trying to ask nicely for food they whanted, enstead of just being dick-ish about it, i responded with same attutie and answered with my own fists. Fight was quick and i was the one standing. On examination of the person - i didnt see death report, but severe bruisings only and other person next to them immidietly dragged them away. Presumably to medbay. I wasnt fast enough to give chase to bring him to medbay myself due to fattness and close to crit state.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I dont think i should be banned in this situation at all. Not to mention to be banned for 3 days!!!
Anything else we should know: Ive been involved in kitchen conflicts too many times to know when it is okay to apply hurting CQC to kill or to crit. And i generally do not approve murdering in any cases, even if im a traitor (refuse to take assasination tasks, etc) I have described major events during the timeline in focus, any details can be found in logs or you can ask me. I read the rules and i dont think i should be banned, since i havent hurt anyone initially, but enstead was hurt at the end. You whant particular food? Ask as a normal person! Didnt succeed? Maybe try proposing something in return? There is food on canteen. You came to fill the belly? Kitchen is the right place. Eat the food. Why do you have to be dick? Yes, you, the RD person, if you read this.
Character name: Bronte Wheeler
Ban type: Ban
Ban length: 3 days
Ban reason: In round 188832, escalated a fight to killing after instigating it by using cqc to forcefeed another crewmate "refuses to eat" is not a valid reason to instigate a fight. This ban (BanID #61991) was applied by Lulufren on
Time ban was placed: 2202-08-19 13:35:19
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 188835
Your side of the story: As a chef, served food in condiment bottles named FAT which contained only nutriments. A person, who ahelped me, came to kitchen demanding food. He was given a reply that there is food in the bottle named FAT. Person refused to drink nutriments and demanded Normal food. Demand was dismissed and he started comlaining more and causing trouble by using telekinesis on food ingredients on tables at the kitchen. As the resaul - I, as chef, came to him and using CQC knocked him unconcious and forcefeeded him the nutrients. As the resault - person was fed, no damage was done to him, nothing was looted, he was untouched and at the same spot. When he regain conciousness he said something and left the area. The conflict was assumed as resolved. But no. I noticed a person asking questions about mechanis involving CQC and how to deal with it. After some time someone from direction where science is teleported all food ingredients from a table in the kitchen, which i kept for making butter bear (raw meat and buter) A little later same person came to kitchen not only with telekinesis but with HULK, most noticable. They started trying to attack me with telekinesis and when i came close to them to try and knockdown again to throw them out (which didnt work due to HULK mutation) they started beating me next to the kitchen counter. Seeing how this person cannot calm down over the food and escalating furthermore, enstead of reporting to my authorities or trying to ask nicely for food they whanted, enstead of just being dick-ish about it, i responded with same attutie and answered with my own fists. Fight was quick and i was the one standing. On examination of the person - i didnt see death report, but severe bruisings only and other person next to them immidietly dragged them away. Presumably to medbay. I wasnt fast enough to give chase to bring him to medbay myself due to fattness and close to crit state.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I dont think i should be banned in this situation at all. Not to mention to be banned for 3 days!!!
Anything else we should know: Ive been involved in kitchen conflicts too many times to know when it is okay to apply hurting CQC to kill or to crit. And i generally do not approve murdering in any cases, even if im a traitor (refuse to take assasination tasks, etc) I have described major events during the timeline in focus, any details can be found in logs or you can ask me. I read the rules and i dont think i should be banned, since i havent hurt anyone initially, but enstead was hurt at the end. You whant particular food? Ask as a normal person! Didnt succeed? Maybe try proposing something in return? There is food on canteen. You came to fill the belly? Kitchen is the right place. Eat the food. Why do you have to be dick? Yes, you, the RD person, if you read this.
- Lulufren
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:41 pm
- Byond Username: Lulufren
Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
So, according to the attack log, what they DID- before you started using CQC on em is "has thrown the stick of butter from Kitchen (139,124,2) towards Kitchen (140,124,2) using Telekinesis. (The Ale' Nath (140,127,2))"
According to the game log, what they SAID when near the bar or kitchen is SAY: (Conner Laurenzi) "what the fuck" (The Ale' Nath (138,129,2)) 5 minutes later
and "bronte is chocking people out and force feeding them in the kitchen" (Central Primary Hallway (126,115,2)) another minute later
both of which being fair responses to being grabbed with cqc and forcefed.
if you abuse CQC like that as chef, it is valid for other players to retaliate against you, and not valid for you to escalate to killing, as you instigated the conflict in the first place. I am not going to count the throwing of a stick of butter as instigating.
And by the way, the words "no damage was done to him", followed by "When he regain conciousness", are both funny, and clearly contradictory.
I am upholding this ban.
According to the game log, what they SAID when near the bar or kitchen is SAY: (Conner Laurenzi) "what the fuck" (The Ale' Nath (138,129,2)) 5 minutes later
and "bronte is chocking people out and force feeding them in the kitchen" (Central Primary Hallway (126,115,2)) another minute later
both of which being fair responses to being grabbed with cqc and forcefed.
if you abuse CQC like that as chef, it is valid for other players to retaliate against you, and not valid for you to escalate to killing, as you instigated the conflict in the first place. I am not going to count the throwing of a stick of butter as instigating.
And by the way, the words "no damage was done to him", followed by "When he regain conciousness", are both funny, and clearly contradictory.
I am upholding this ban.
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- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:47 pm
- Byond Username: DrSID666
Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
"And by the way, the words "no damage was done to him", followed by "When he regain conciousness", are both funny, and clearly contradictory."Lulufren wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:30 pm So, according to the attack log, what they DID- before you started using CQC on em is "has thrown the stick of butter from Kitchen (139,124,2) towards Kitchen (140,124,2) using Telekinesis. (The Ale' Nath (140,127,2))"
According to the game log, what they SAID when near the bar or kitchen is SAY: (Conner Laurenzi) "what the fuck" (The Ale' Nath (138,129,2)) 5 minutes later
and "bronte is chocking people out and force feeding them in the kitchen" (Central Primary Hallway (126,115,2)) another minute later
both of which being fair responses to being grabbed with cqc and forcefed.
if you abuse CQC like that as chef, it is valid for other players to retaliate against you, and not valid for you to escalate to killing, as you instigated the conflict in the first place. I am not going to count the throwing of a stick of butter as instigating.
And by the way, the words "no damage was done to him", followed by "When he regain conciousness", are both funny, and clearly contradictory.
I am upholding this ban.
if you think there was ay damage done - then show me change of his health state from this encounter. Funny Lulufren.
If you dont count RD's demands (not asking, but demanding) for food and refuse or being unable to see that in logs and at the same time being Ok with that part, then why arent you counting RD attacking me with HULK fists as escalation to KILL and why dont you look at the logs to see if i DID kill him?
If you cant proof your point and havent read escalation rule for some time, then i whant another admin to review this appeal.
- CMDR_Gungnir
- Joined: Tue May 04, 2021 11:11 am
- Byond Username: CMDR Gungnir
Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
I hope this isn't peanutting, CQC has the ability to knock people unconscious without doing damage. "no damage" and "regaining consciousness" are possible.
- Lulufren
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:41 pm
- Byond Username: Lulufren
Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
It was not escalation for them to go and get hulk to retaliate, as you had already abused CQC to forcefeed an unknown substance, which for all they know could have been poisoned.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... /game.html
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... attack.txt
If you can point out in these logs how exactly they managed to provoke your CQC assault, i'll gladly admit to having been blind, until then, should i interpret you last statement as asking for a headmin review?
If so, then i'll let em know
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... /game.html
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... attack.txt
If you can point out in these logs how exactly they managed to provoke your CQC assault, i'll gladly admit to having been blind, until then, should i interpret you last statement as asking for a headmin review?
If so, then i'll let em know
- Timberpoes
- In-Game Game Master
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:54 pm
- Byond Username: Timberpoes
Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
Logs used:
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... attack.txt
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... 2/game.txt
Logs filtered to only lines with the ckey Grizdales and the ckey DrSID666.
Initial incident. Grizdales turns up, eats FAT, throws some butter towards one of the seats next to the kitchen serving table, gets CQC KO'd with no damage dealt, is force fed more nutriment.
The same happens again a few minutes later. Grizdales turns up, TKs some monkey meat, get CQC'd and force fed more nutriment and is thrown out of the kitchen. Someone else is also involved and gets disarm-shoved away from the looks of it.
20 seconds later a bunch of stuff gets spirited away from the kitchen.
Words are exchanged
Hulk happens.
A bunch of chair throwing happens. The coordinates would suggest that this wasn't attacking chair throwing, but instead Grizdales being buckled to a chair and using TK on it to move. Yeet.
A fight happens again, seemingly unprompted. Grizdales succumbs at -18.2 health, 15 seconds after the last attack, on the way to medbay...
... Grizdales is in medbay 6 seconds after succumbing.
There was no problem with escalation up until the point DrSID666 attacked Grizdales for what appeared to be no reason.
Grizdales appeared to be only using TK on a chair at this point in time, and their coordinates suggest they were buckled to it and using it to move.
This is probably over-escalation, poor escalation or a poor reason for starting a fight.
DrSID666 did not kill Grizdales. Grizdales succumbed on the way to medbay in soft crit.
These are the facts. Figure this appeal out from there.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... attack.txt
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... 2/game.txt
Logs filtered to only lines with the ckey Grizdales and the ckey DrSID666.
Initial incident. Grizdales turns up, eats FAT, throws some butter towards one of the seats next to the kitchen serving table, gets CQC KO'd with no damage dealt, is force fed more nutriment.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Grizdales appeared to be only using TK on a chair at this point in time, and their coordinates suggest they were buckled to it and using it to move.
This is probably over-escalation, poor escalation or a poor reason for starting a fight.
DrSID666 did not kill Grizdales. Grizdales succumbed on the way to medbay in soft crit.
These are the facts. Figure this appeal out from there.
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- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:47 pm
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Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
This is all the loggs i carefully pulled from both combat logs and chat logs concerning the situation.
Since you, Lulufren, decided not to take BOTH partyis into account but enstead decided to ban me for 3 days - yes, i would like a headmin to review this appeal.
Judging only by the logs it looks like you banned me for reason, which is escalation gone wrong. May be i really did messed that part where RD was all rude in the first place. This is hard to belive for me, since it was just yesterday. Then again, you can see in the logs he DID messed with the meat... where are the other logs, i wonder? Are those 100% trust worthy? I also tryed to find other chat logs about food demands, but those does not allign by time (occured too early before the start of the conflict or much later) Allright, since i cant proof othewise and i was instigating the conflict RD can escalate it further as he whants within the rules. But then he left the kitchen\bar area only saying "what the fuck". Is it end of conflict? Or only theatrical pause? How he decided to use his rights for further escalation, when he allready escaped? Thats right! By messing with kitchen as he did in the first place, but using teleported! Then what? Is that all? No! Taking hulk only to come back to beat me up... very interesting. But due to skill issue he didnt succeeded EVEN while i was only trying to knock him out a few times (unsuccessfully)► Show Spoiler
Since you, Lulufren, decided not to take BOTH partyis into account but enstead decided to ban me for 3 days - yes, i would like a headmin to review this appeal.
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- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:47 pm
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Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
Damn you are fast Timberpoes...
- Timberpoes
- In-Game Game Master
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:54 pm
- Byond Username: Timberpoes
Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
I have learned how to quickly find, filter and analyse logs.
It would appear from the logs, the incident goes - They mess with your butter with TK -> You CQC-KO them and forcefeed them -> They mess with your meat with TK -> You CQC-KO them and forcefeed them -> Kitchen supplies get teleported away -> They return to the kitchen as a hulk -> You fully attack them and put them into crit -> They go into softcrit down to about -21 health -> They succumb at -18 health on the way to medbay.
That aside, Lulufren missed both during the ticket and during this appeal that Grizdales succumbed (very) early. Of course, catching things like this is the purpose of appeals, so we're in the right place to get it fixed.
There's a general admin team convention: Players that succumb when far from -100HP generally lose the ability to say "X killed me" because there is no way to prove the attacker would have definitely killed them had they not succumbed early.
In the context of this scenario, the player succumbed well after you attacked them, while someone was taking them to medbay. You really cannot be held accountable for this as a death, and instead should be held accountable for the combat ending at the soft crit.
So as a result there is a point in your favour in this appeal: You didn't actually kill them.
The ban reason itself will be changed more in your favour as a result of that and Lulufren will need to look into the severity of your ban in light of that change.
And there is a point against you: You did attack them first (tableslam plus attack plus kick) without them having attacked you first. You put them into crit for what would appear to be little or no reason. They attacked you back after 4 seconds of you attacking them.
The question is whether you were the defender or the instigator in the conflict. If you were an instigator, the question is then whether you over-escalated.
There's a large chance you and Lulufren won't see eye-to-eye on that basis. But my hope is that you'll get a better outcome that will satisfy you just from the updated set of facts that are way more in your favour.
It would appear from the logs, the incident goes - They mess with your butter with TK -> You CQC-KO them and forcefeed them -> They mess with your meat with TK -> You CQC-KO them and forcefeed them -> Kitchen supplies get teleported away -> They return to the kitchen as a hulk -> You fully attack them and put them into crit -> They go into softcrit down to about -21 health -> They succumb at -18 health on the way to medbay.
That aside, Lulufren missed both during the ticket and during this appeal that Grizdales succumbed (very) early. Of course, catching things like this is the purpose of appeals, so we're in the right place to get it fixed.
There's a general admin team convention: Players that succumb when far from -100HP generally lose the ability to say "X killed me" because there is no way to prove the attacker would have definitely killed them had they not succumbed early.
In the context of this scenario, the player succumbed well after you attacked them, while someone was taking them to medbay. You really cannot be held accountable for this as a death, and instead should be held accountable for the combat ending at the soft crit.
So as a result there is a point in your favour in this appeal: You didn't actually kill them.
The ban reason itself will be changed more in your favour as a result of that and Lulufren will need to look into the severity of your ban in light of that change.
And there is a point against you: You did attack them first (tableslam plus attack plus kick) without them having attacked you first. You put them into crit for what would appear to be little or no reason. They attacked you back after 4 seconds of you attacking them.
The question is whether you were the defender or the instigator in the conflict. If you were an instigator, the question is then whether you over-escalated.
There's a large chance you and Lulufren won't see eye-to-eye on that basis. But my hope is that you'll get a better outcome that will satisfy you just from the updated set of facts that are way more in your favour.
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- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:47 pm
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Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
Thanks, Timberpoes, i like your fact-analissys approach. I hop Lulufren read my log copypasta with comments included so that he can see more clearer that RD was rule 1 breaker IMHO and that i DIDNT REALLY intend to deal damage at the last confrontation (explained and confirmed in the comments of log copypasta)
- Lulufren
- In-Game Admin
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Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
It looks like i actually missed the succumbing part. My apolgies on that one.
Still, the conflict being started with a cqc assault over a stick of butter being moved by 1 tile with telekinesis is an instigation.
I have edited the ban reason and note accordingly and lowered it to 1 day, which makes it an expired ban, with the reason of overescalation.
Still, the conflict being started with a cqc assault over a stick of butter being moved by 1 tile with telekinesis is an instigation.
I have edited the ban reason and note accordingly and lowered it to 1 day, which makes it an expired ban, with the reason of overescalation.
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- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:47 pm
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Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
Lulufren, are you sure this note reflects what it turned out to be?Lulufren wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:17 am It looks like i actually missed the succumbing part. My apolgies on that one.
Still, the conflict being started with a cqc assault over a stick of butter being moved by 1 tile with telekinesis is an instigation.
I have edited the ban reason and note accordingly and lowered it to 1 day, which makes it an expired ban, with the reason of overescalation.
Banned from the server for 1 day: Overescalation: In round 188832, escalated a fight to softcrit after instigating it by using cqc to forcefeed another crewmate; denied it in the ticket. "refuses to eat" is not a valid reason to instigate a fight, let alone the moving of a stick of butter by 1 tile via telekinesis.
- Lulufren
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:41 pm
- Byond Username: Lulufren
Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
You denied instigating the conflict and after repeated logdiving, no valid reason for such escalation could be found.
Either the logs are cursed, or you didnt tell the whole story.
Either the logs are cursed, or you didnt tell the whole story.
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- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:47 pm
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Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
Okay then Im asking you to put url to this topic in the note so that anyone can see what is it behind that note.
- Timberpoes
- In-Game Game Master
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Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
The headmin team will be ruling on this appeal shortly.
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- Timberpoes
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Re: [Lulufren] Bronte Wheeler - why being a dick, RD?
We will be overturning this as a ban and will also be removing the note.
This was pretty much an extended IC issue. I laid out the full facts of what happened in the ban appeal itself.
It doesn't look like there were any escalation issues, and the fight seemed to escalate normally. Escalation started non-harmfully and there was decent back-and-forth before it reached harm. It was all well within escalation.
When the RD was soft crit (approx -21 health), they were dragged immediately to medbay. The RD succumbed at -18 health seconds away from medbay. The RD then ahelped "chef just straight up killed me cause I dared go to the kitchen". He was in medbay 15 seconds after he was first soft crit.
The RD opened their ahelp with the line
The reworded note is innaccurate or at least would be unduly harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the note enough that we will be removing it too.
This was pretty much an extended IC issue. I laid out the full facts of what happened in the ban appeal itself.
It doesn't look like there were any escalation issues, and the fight seemed to escalate normally. Escalation started non-harmfully and there was decent back-and-forth before it reached harm. It was all well within escalation.
When the RD was soft crit (approx -21 health), they were dragged immediately to medbay. The RD succumbed at -18 health seconds away from medbay. The RD then ahelped "chef just straight up killed me cause I dared go to the kitchen". He was in medbay 15 seconds after he was first soft crit.
The RD opened their ahelp with the line
If the RD had not succumbed, they would more likely than not have been healed out of crit before they would have even had the chance to ahelp. The headmin team consider this approach to be classic banbaiting, however we haven't discussed whether we felt it warranted a ban in its own right.chef just straight up killed me cause I dared go to to the kitchen
The reworded note is innaccurate or at least would be unduly harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the note enough that we will be removing it too.
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