"Controversial" changes: the thread

[Timonk]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I'm sick of it.
Example: belt pr getting merged.
Despite getting argumented and voted into the ground, it still manages to get merged. Why? A certain John "Fulp" Willard thought it was good.
After that in the same thread, someone said "nerfs are going to be controversial" NO. NOT LIKE THAT.
The only controversy that was in this thread was coders threatening to merge it against the will of people who actually have to play with it.
Good Controversy entails a healthy debate with good arguments on both sides. In this case one's side was "guh realism" and then the other side proved that your changes aren't realism but bogus, then stacked multiple other arguments on top. But guess what?? It got merged anyway.
Then there is the argument of "but muh RP!!"
yes, ss13 is an RP game, of sorts.
But stop trying to fit it into the singular category of "Space RP". It is so much more. If you want to make it like that, you might as well remove the gameplay and make it chat only. Touching grass might help too.
Categories you might fit ss13 into: Action, Roleplay, 2D, Simulation, Multiplayer
But no, instead we chose to confine it to the roleplaying aspect.
Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead? Or at least a healthy balance to hold up order. Why force tg to become more and more roleplay only if the playerbases enjoys the action based factor more?

[chocolate_bickie]

I didn’t read the belt pr really but I think it’s a good idea because its a step toward keeping people from having a well optimized inventory, and instead making them pick and choose what to carry.

Perhaps your decision to leave behind the captains saber for a toolbelt will be a good one when the AI tries to bolt you in a room and kill you. Or maybe you’ll regret it when you get attacked by some other sort of antag.

Course, in and of itself this doesn’t achieve much. There’s many other ways to carry around everything you could possibly need.

The only weapon a true spaceman needs is a refueled welder and a screwdriver aimed at the eye.

[Pandarsenic]

I didn’t read the belt pr really but I think it’s a good idea because its a step toward keeping people from having a well optimized inventory, and instead making them pick and choose what to carry.

Perhaps your decision to leave behind the captains saber for a toolbelt will be a good one when the AI tries to bolt you in a room and kill you. Or maybe you’ll regret it when you get attacked by some other sort of antag.

Course, in and of itself this doesn’t achieve much. There’s many other ways to carry around everything you could possibly need.

It only really messes up doctors, who need the belt slot for compact defibs but have a set of surgery tools that can never fit in just-a-box (circular saw even before upgrading to T2).

Because of the addition of access to boxes inside your backpack, a box in your bag isn't really worse than a belt unless you need to stow an item of a larger size in it.

[Timonk]

I didn’t read the belt pr really but I think it’s a good idea because its a step toward keeping people from having a well optimized inventory, and instead making them pick and choose what to carry.

Perhaps your decision to leave behind the captains saber for a toolbelt will be a good one when the AI tries to bolt you in a room and kill you. Or maybe you’ll regret it when you get attacked by some other sort of antag.

Course, in and of itself this doesn’t achieve much. There’s many other ways to carry around everything you could possibly need.

It only really messes up doctors, who need the belt slot for compact defibs but have a set of surgery tools that can never fit in just-a-box (circular saw even before upgrading to T2).

Because of the addition of access to boxes inside your backpack, a box in your bag isn't really worse than a belt unless you need to stow an item of a larger size in it.

You can put the compact defib in your bag

[Pandarsenic]

Can you use it from your bag

[Timonk]

no you have to drop your belt first and hope no one takes it

[Kendrickorium]

You have one vote when it comes to development, and that's choosing to play or not to play

if the bad changes overwhelm the good, leave

if they don't, stay and stop worrying so much about this crap

if the playerbase disappears, you were right

if it doesn't, you were wrong

Sticking around and being upset constantly about things you have no control over will just turn you miserable and twisted and make everyone dislike you

I think the current game industry proves that people are fucking morons and will play literally anything no matter how fucking stale boring and mindless it is, given that it's multiplayer.
you could take /tg/ and over the years remove all weapons except for stun batons and it would still be popular.
the above poster was right. the game is being gutted. things are continually taken away with nothing added in its place. it doesnt take a genius to know that this is a bad thing.

you know where the door is

[oranges]

you're so close to understanding why this is the way it is it's almost sad.

[Tearling]

You have one vote when it comes to development, and that's choosing to play or not to play

if the bad changes overwhelm the good, leave

if they don't, stay and stop worrying so much about this crap

if the playerbase disappears, you were right

if it doesn't, you were wrong

Sticking around and being upset constantly about things you have no control over will just turn you miserable and twisted and make everyone dislike you

TL;DR:
Maintainer that doesn't play the game tells you to stop playing the game if you disagree with the changes the coders make.
It's a fair point though. A lot of the players are addicted to the game kind of like league or WoW, games that also fuck the playerbase in the ass and then say the same thing. I'll take your advice, Oranges.

It was fun while it lasted, see you later player's club pals and gals.

[san7890]

A break does a lot of help. You might be upset that what you were accustomed to was changed and you can never get back in your old "groove", but that just opens up the possibility to figure new stuff out. Even micro-breaks to prevent burnout do so much good.

[BlueMemesauce]

You have one vote when it comes to development, and that's choosing to play or not to play

if the bad changes overwhelm the good, leave

if they don't, stay and stop worrying so much about this crap

if the playerbase disappears, you were right

if it doesn't, you were wrong

Sticking around and being upset constantly about things you have no control over will just turn you miserable and twisted and make everyone dislike you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1o3koTLWM

[oranges]

that would be more of an own if that wasn't due to a two month long ddos by people mad about the fact our server continues to be successful while not catering to them

[Timonk]

You have one vote when it comes to development, and that's choosing to play or not to play

if the bad changes overwhelm the good, leave

if they don't, stay and stop worrying so much about this crap

if the playerbase disappears, you were right

if it doesn't, you were wrong

Sticking around and being upset constantly about things you have no control over will just turn you miserable and twisted and make everyone dislike you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1o3koTLWM

Yea tg is dying out because we haven't had any new antags in the last 6 months (new, not reworked)

[san7890]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1o3koTLWM

https://www.digg.com/r/SS13/comments/ ... r_ongoing/

It's funny how you used the same graph, and came to another incorrect conclusion about the data presented in the graph (it was published February 2022, so that sharp decline is only because it had data for January of 2022). This digg post was made as a joke (observant readers can notice the posting user's name), but... wow.

[Shadowflame909]

ss13 is too addicting. The amount of dopamine you get from going to medical for chainsaw arms and then going to xenobio for a regenerative extract, only for a changeling to down you afterwards and for you to instantly wake up and delimb them is comparable to playing at a casino. (not winning, but the dopamine drop between the two is negligent.)

Only way im going anywhere is if codewise it becomes unfeasible to survive combat, or rulewise the server pulls a hardcore Paradise station No-escalation rule. (non-antags other then sec shouldn't be in combat no matter what)

[BlueMemesauce]

snip

This is orange's own graph that he made, not a redditor
https://www.oranges.net.nz/%7Eoranges/population.html

[BlueMemesauce]

I should have used oranges mp3 file it would have been funnier https://www.oranges.net.nz/~oranges/Cur ... koTLWM.mp3

[san7890]

-snip-

This is orange's own graph that he made, not a redditor
https://www.oranges.net.nz/%7Eoranges/population.html

I know that. I just illustrated the digg post because you fell into the same fallacious argument (albeit unironically).

[oranges]

also just bear in mind that one doesn't auto update, but the ones on moth.fans do
https://moth.fans/data/players-per-day/

also I think you totally missed san's point, which is not that the graph was someone elses, but that the data for the last month is always incorrect so the graph always trends sharply down because that months count depend son which day in the onth the graph was generated.

[Tearling]

You might be upset that what you were accustomed to was changed and you can never get back in your old "groove", but that just opens up the possibility to figure new stuff out.

I think you've misunderstood what I'm frustrated with, if this is in response to my post.
I'm frustrated with 4 main things.

1-
Several recent PRs have been bad. I don't like the experiment changes, like how a RCD, a basic engineering tool, is locked behind an experiment that is rarely done by scientist players. This isn't just bad for engineers, this is bad for everyone who wants to use a RCD, and everyone who would benefit from engineering having one. Obviously, a few bad PRs are going to get through the cracks. This has always happened, and will always happen. But then-

2-
Oranges, while I disagree with him here, does get one thing right. Our only vote in development is to stop playing, or continue playing. I think enough people are addicted that the player numbers won't drop that much, I could be wrong, but that's my bet. But me personally, I've hit my limit for being frustrated, and seeing someone in charge of development straight up going "just stop playing if you don't like the recent changes" is a good wakeup call that I'm sure not many people are going to get.

3-
Unrelated to the current thread, so I'll keep it brief: I've had a few connection issues ever since the DDoSes started. I have a harder time joining the round roundstart, though that hasn't stopped me from trying harder to do so. This just increases my frustration with tgstation.

4-
The manuel community seems to have changed, slightly. I've noticed there are more discussions about other servers, and more salt discussions on the manuelcord. This might just be personal sampling bias, but seeing the constant complaints and salt, along with having a less pleasant experience on manuel, is a major source of frustration. I liked having fun laughing in roundend chatter about silly gimmicks, but the only recent experiences I thought were especially positive was the event wedding and a good Chesify event. Pic below was taken very shortly after I decided to request a ban, according to the discord message time (though I could have sworn it was before)

Seeing something like this on the manuelcord every night is the new normal now.

A slight change in how I play the game isn't going to fix any of these, so hearing you say that comes off as a bit condescending, though I'm sure you don't mean it that way.

TL;DR
I'm frustrated at more than just one PR change.

[Jonathan Gupta]

I did the experiment as a borg, it was a bit of pain cause I required a mime. But it was kinda fun making BZ making it 10 times over each round wouldn't.

[san7890]

You might be upset that what you were accustomed to was changed and you can never get back in your old "groove", but that just opens up the possibility to figure new stuff out.

I think you've misunderstood what I'm frustrated with, if this is in response to my post.
I'm frustrated with 4 main things.

1-
Several recent PRs have been bad. I don't like the experiment changes, like how a RCD, a basic engineering tool, is locked behind an experiment that is rarely done by scientist players. This isn't just bad for engineers, this is bad for everyone who wants to use a RCD, and everyone who would benefit from engineering having one. Obviously, a few bad PRs are going to get through the cracks. This has always happened, and will always happen. But then-

2-
Oranges, while I disagree with him here, does get one thing right. Our only vote in development is to stop playing, or continue playing. I think enough people are addicted that the player numbers won't drop that much, I could be wrong, but that's my bet. But me personally, I've hit my limit for being frustrated, and seeing someone in charge of development straight up going "just stop playing if you don't like the recent changes" is a good wakeup call that I'm sure not many people are going to get.

3-
Unrelated to the current thread, so I'll keep it brief: I've had a few connection issues ever since the DDoSes started. I have a harder time joining the round roundstart, though that hasn't stopped me from trying harder to do so. This just increases my frustration with tgstation.

4-
The manuel community seems to have changed, slightly. I've noticed there are more discussions about other servers, and more salt discussions on the manuelcord. This might just be personal sampling bias, but seeing the constant complaints and salt, along with having a less pleasant experience on manuel, is a major source of frustration. I liked having fun laughing in roundend chatter about silly gimmicks, but the only recent experiences I thought were especially positive was the event wedding and a good Chesify event. Pic below was taken very shortly after I decided to request a ban, according to the discord message time (though I could have sworn it was before)

Seeing something like this on the manuelcord every night is the new normal now.

A slight change in how I play the game isn't going to fix any of these, so hearing you say that comes off as a bit condescending, though I'm sure you don't mean it that way.

TL;DR
I'm frustrated at more than just one PR change.

I was just speaking in general to my own experiences.

[TheFinalPotato]

lmao are they really trying to boycott. Fuckin mood.
For what it's worth I'm sorry you feel that way, hope you have fun wherever you end up. I'll keep doin what I'm doin, but everybody deserves the chance to find what they love.

[iamgoofball]

gee it's almost like there was a month long ddos during that time frame or something, dipshit

[BlueMemesauce]

gee it's almost like there was a month long ddos during that time frame or something, dipshit

That drop is an exaggeration because the graph is outdated like others have told me. But before the ddos people back then were blaming the drop on Elden Ring being released so the drop cannot be entirely blamed on the ddos.

[BlueMemesauce]

Mothblocks data is useful since it is actually up to date and shows the population on each day. The trend of less players occured at the start Februrary which was before Elden Ring released on Feburary 25. The sharp dip at the end of February can be correlated to the release of Elden Ring but it recovered only a few days later. Therefore Elden Ring did not have a significant impact on the data.

Sybil apopulations rose back to normal levels by April but terry populations did not. This could mean that the LRP playerbase was unsatisfied as Terry is considered to be the server where powergamers and greytiders play.

Of course after that we see the DDOS which caused player numbers to fluctuate extremely until ending around May. Again, we see the same trend of Sybil population recovering but not Terry. Strangely Manuel populations also did not recover. I assumed it would be the opposite as players were seemly outraged the most at TG merging "MRP" PRs. Honestly I have no idea what caused Manuel to decrease I thought it would be the exact opposite.

[blackdav123]

Compared to the last year graph we still have similar numbers of players on the sybil terry and manuel graphs, but bagil was still holding 1/2 the players of sybil compared to 1/10 as it is now.

[BlueMemesauce]

Compared to the last year graph we still have similar numbers of players on the sybil terry and manuel graphs, but bagil was still holding 1/2 the players of sybil compared to 1/10 as it is now.

Yeah both years had a similar dip from feburary to april. Maybe because that is a time when alot of people take vacations. So i guess we can't really contribute it to specific server changes if it is a trend that happens each year.

[Ziiro]

just do what I did and request a self ban so you stop playing and never come back

get on my level

[oranges]

don't you play on vg station

[cacogen]

gosh i sure wish they'd stop making the inventory so cumbersome to use. i wish they'd overhaul the system so it was just a logical grid instead of containers magically creating extra space. then we could have belts in bags, and they would take up just as much space as the tools they held (assuming certain non-rigid storage objects expanded/shrank based on their contents, of course)

[Timonk]

gosh i sure wish they'd stop making the inventory so cumbersome to use. i wish they'd overhaul the system so it was just a logical grid instead of containers magically creating extra space. then we could have belts in bags, and they would take up just as much space as the tools they held (assuming certain non-rigid storage objects expanded/shrank based on their contents, of course)

I love magic containers

[cacogen]

gosh i sure wish they'd stop making the inventory so cumbersome to use. i wish they'd overhaul the system so it was just a logical grid instead of containers magically creating extra space. then we could have belts in bags, and they would take up just as much space as the tools they held (assuming certain non-rigid storage objects expanded/shrank based on their contents, of course)

I love magic containers

i'm ambivalent. but they're hard to balance, unintuitive to use (e.g. 'will this fit?') and lead to more objects just not being allowed in containers (e.g. belts) or containers not being able to be equipped to convenient slots (e.g. satchels), which makes them a pain in the ass or completely undesirable to use

[Farquaar]

I just hope they don't nerf boxes. I love selling botany stuff and chef stuff in boxes. Boxes of berries, boxes of muffins, boxes of dried pipe tobacco- all of it belongs in boxes.

[toemas]

Completely pointless moronic change since you can just put your tools in a box, also completely pointless to whinge about

[toemas]

that would be more of an own if that wasn't due to a two month long ddos by people mad about the fact our server continues to be successful while not catering to them

It was dropping before the ddos and you know this

[cacogen]

Completely pointless moronic change since you can just put your tools in a box, also completely pointless to whinge about

you can't wear the box though, so you can no longer switch out a belt with one in your bag

[Jonathan Gupta]

that would be more of an own if that wasn't due to a two month long ddos by people mad about the fact our server continues to be successful while not catering to them

It was dropping before the ddos and you know this

elden ring

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Completely pointless moronic change since you can just put your tools in a box, also completely pointless to whinge about

you can't wear the box though, so you can no longer switch out a belt with one in your bag

actually I think if you have two boxes you ought to be able to container-switch the contents between box-in-backpack and belt-on-beltslot with only a relatively brief delay? Havent tried it though

[Tearling]

don't you play on vg station

Don't you post on /tg/forums?

[oranges]

don't you play on vg station

Don't you post on /tg/forums?

it was a question tearling, not an "own"

[Timonk]

don't you play on vg station

Don't you post on /tg/forums?

it was a question tearling, not an "own"

Oranges do you play on vg

[oranges]

don't you play on vg station

Don't you post on /tg/forums?

it was a question tearling, not an "own"

Oranges do you play on vg

i've not played, but I keep an eye on their dev discord and their generals from time to time.

[Mothblocks]

i used to but then it kept crashing and then the people here treated me nicer

[Timonk]

i used to but then it kept crashing and then the people here treated me nicer

No more sex?

[celularLAmp]

Belts dont fit in backpack anymore

People use boxes or paper sacks

literally 90% of the time something like that is fixed or changed people find a way around it and then they just fix that and then it repeats until people start moving crates with stuff everywhere

[blackdav123]

Belts dont fit in backpack anymore

People use boxes or paper sacks

literally 90% of the time something like that is fixed or changed people find a way around it and then they just fix that and then it repeats until people start moving crates with stuff everywhere

sometimes on war ops rounds I will fill a crate with spears as my "quiver" and when a nukie shows up I bola them and start chucking spears like a madman

[celularLAmp]

Belts dont fit in backpack anymore

People use boxes or paper sacks

literally 90% of the time something like that is fixed or changed people find a way around it and then they just fix that and then it repeats until people start moving crates with stuff everywhere

sometimes on war ops rounds I will fill a crate with spears as my "quiver" and when a nukie shows up I bola them and start chucking spears like a madman

I saw this guy as janitor have a closet full of fucking bear traps that he would drag around