Defending yourself in Admin Tickets - Tidbits from BONERMASTER

[BONERMASTER]

I've stumbled upon this ban appeal thread just now, and what stood out to me was them revealing the admin conversation right out of the gate.
What had occured prior, was this guy blowing off a scientist's head during self defense, allegedly through sheer RNG, and they made up for it by bringing them back to the medbay and reviving them, even helping them IC afterwards, if that ain't a nice heartwarming turnaround!

Anyways, he got banned regardless, and there is a point to be made about not shutting the hell up and talking the admin into banning you:

cheshify bwoinked maxoesss 2 hours ago
Hey there, can you explain what happened between you and Owen McShain?

00:00:15
maxoesss Reply from cheshify 2 hours ago
Between me and myself?

00:00:15
cheshify Reply from maxoesss 2 hours ago
Ah, one moment. Steve Newman

00:02:24
maxoesss Reply from cheshify 2 hours ago
he attacked another crew member and called them bad, for the sole reason of that person and myself wanting to see if science had advanced engineering done. I disposalled him after shoving him unto a glass table. he came back swinging, I pulled out a shotgun as a warning, he says one last punch and comes at me to attack, so I shoot. This repeats but by RNG he gets decapitated which was not my intention and is just an unlucky situation. I get him to medbay, made sure he got his head attached and defibbed him myself. A moment ago I was helping him chase down some one who stole from him

00:04:02
cheshify Reply from maxoesss an hour ago
Alright, thank you for actually reviving the person you're fighting. Just be careful about escalation, attacking someone within their department lobby for trying to get tiders to fuck off isn't great form.

Whenever you hear the admin say the signal words "just be careful", that's your cue to stop arguing, period. The admin is letting you off, all you do now is say "thank you, yes I will!" and either start behaving for the first time in your life, or make sure you don't get caught again. There is nothing to be gained when you already got off scot free, like what, do you want a fucking medal? This isn't your 4th grade math class, brother (or sister).

Well, I'm sure you have guessed why I made this thread. Let's see what happened next:

► Show Spoiler

00:00:54
maxoesss Reply from cheshify an hour ago
Wait what. It was the lobby, the general accessable area. He started sperging out because we wanted to inquire about advanced engineering. No foot was set into actual science

BIG, GIGANTIC, MISTAKE! ENORMOUS even! The red carpet was already rolled out, you were on the way out! Don't go back in and argue some stupid semantics, who gives a fuck if the admin is blind and doesn't know where you were fighting? Whatever they saw, they said it was ok, so just take the W, say thanks like a well adjusted individual, and end the conversation!
If, for some god awful reason, they actually end up sticking a note to you, and this somehow becomes relevant, just appeal the shit out of it. If you can end a bwoink in as few replies as possible, do it!

Now let's see how this spirals out of control:

maxoesss Reply from cheshify an hour ago
Oh okay, I get where you're coming from. In the sense, scrolling back logs, of the guy hitting the desk.

00:00:05
cheshify Reply from maxoesss an hour ago
I know it's the lobby, but PLEASE be a little more careful before shooting someone around 10 times? You DID shove him onto a glass table and then attack him.

They're even giving you one more chance. Alarm sirens should be blaring in your head right now! Just let it rest, walk awaay....! You don't even have to explain yourself, and I would HIGHLY recommend, particularly if you're not a certified ninja warrior dojo champion in dodging legal ramifications, that you never do in this situation.
Because if you stumbled your way through here, the only thing you'll be explaining is all the incriminating evidence that the admin will use to charge you with, as we will witness in Exhibit A:

00:04:31
maxoesss Reply from cheshify an hour ago
I shoved him unto a glass table to stun and then disposalled him. The attack happened later, but I get your drift. At the same time it kinda feels silly when people come back for retribution IC and then ahelp when they don't get the upperhand in the situation. He actively tried to attack me after I warned him, loses and then ahelps. Had he just punched me out I doubt there'd been an ahelp

00:01:33
cheshify Reply from maxoesss an hour ago
Why did you shovestun the scientist into a glass table in the first place? What was he doing?

00:00:39
maxoesss Reply from cheshify an hour ago
He was attacking another crewmember who together with me tried to find out if sci was researching advanced engineering and now I died responding to this endless ahelp, nice

00:00:35
maxoesss Reply from cheshify an hour ago
I already told you why at the very beginning

00:00:59
maxoesss Reply from cheshify an hour ago
You also responded that the why of it, and I responded to that. So the whole conversation is starting over again

00:01:27
Client disconnected an hour ago

00:10:10
cheshify Interacted with maxoesss an hour ago
Cheshify/(Scruffy Jones) has created a temporary 2 days server ban for Maxoesss.

00:00:01
Resolved by Cheshify an hour ago

'thanks for making me die to this endless ahelp!!!!!' brother, just fyi, the door was already open, the admin gave you the signal TWO times to just walk out and take the W. But you wanted to be right about where exactly you decapitated your scientist friend. You wanted to explain how exactly you went about assaulting them and how it was technically legal aktschually. You died to yourself, buddy. And that's fitting, because you also end up getting banned by yourself.

Because if you start going passive aggressive on an admin, then whatever tiny sliver of doubt they had, gone. They think, you're a fucking jackass, and they're probably right. So whatever leniency they were going to give you with this, that's gone too, and that's how you get banned for two days over a non-issue.


So key take aways here:

1. Listen to the signal cues.
If the admin is getting ready to wrap this up with a verbal warning, don't fucking start fighting them, that's the literal worst moment you could choose for that. Say thanks, be a nice individual for once.

2. If you fucked up, don't start giving the admin the lip.
People are touchy with their egos, and particularly egomanic admins don't like getting trashed for your mistakes. Usually, they just ban you.

3. If you don't have to, don't start explaining what you did.
We didn't go into too much detail here, but when our dude started opening his mouth, and the admin asks "you did x? Why did you do x, y, z?" you're opening yourself up for a line of questioning, that you probably don't want to deal with, so before you end up getting yourself banned, just shut the hell up.


That would be all from me! Now it's my turn to shut the hell up!


With conclusive regards
-BONERMASTER

[oranges]

did you do the bolding

[wesoda25]

I DEMAND curated game and say logs for all 3 parties, starting from the lobby encounter!

[Tearling]

1. Listen to the signal cues.
If the admin is getting ready to wrap this up with a verbal warning, don't fucking start fighting them, that's the literal worst moment you could choose for that. Say thanks, be a nice individual for once.

Asking a lot of a Terry player to be "nice" for once.
Also I disagree with this point. If the player was in the right and he decided to say "Thanks" in response to an admin being a jerk, it'd come off as sarcastic at best, or stupid at worst.
That being said, it probably is the right thing to do when you did do something wrong, which seems to be the case in this situation.

[Kendrickorium]

excellent write up boner

[sinfulbliss]

Whenever you hear the admin say the signal words "just be careful", that's your cue to stop arguing, period. The admin is letting you off, all you do now is say "thank you, yes I will!"

After which you will be given a permanent note reminding you to be more careful. You will appeal, be hit with the "you cannot appeal a fact-based note," and after a long back-and-forth might get a word or two edited in it.

Agreeing to be more careful implies you agree that you weren't careful enough. What if you were as careful as you could reasonably be expected to be? Then agreeing to that would just be soft consent to a note that will be with you forever!! Getting let off would look more like "That checks out, have a good one."

That said I agree they could've handled the ticket better. They salted at the admin and got a bit too aggressive, and that's not going to make for a good back-and-forth.

[Archie700]

Problem was he wasn't careful to begin with

[sinfulbliss]

Problem was he wasn't careful to begin with

I didn't read the attack logs so that may very well be true. I'm speaking more generally about the valuable guide BONERMASTER has graciously provided us.

[Jonathan Gupta]

*snore

[Archie700]

Problem was he wasn't careful to begin with

I didn't read the attack logs so that may very well be true. I'm speaking more generally about the valuable guide BONERMASTER has graciously provided us.

You would literally have to have a very good argument that you were very careful but
a) were tricked by an antag
b) was being banbaited into killing someone
c) had genuine misinformation
That, and have the patience to write down your defence during the ahelp.

[dirk_mcblade]

Whenever you hear the admin say the signal words "just be careful", that's your cue to stop arguing, period. The admin is letting you off, all you do now is say "thank you, yes I will!"

After which you will be given a permanent note reminding you to be more careful. You will appeal, be hit with the "you cannot appeal a fact-based note," and after a long back-and-forth might get a word or two edited in it.

Agreeing to be more careful implies you agree that you weren't careful enough. What if you were as careful as you could reasonably be expected to be? Then agreeing to that would just be soft consent to a note that will be with you forever!! Getting let off would look more like "That checks out, have a good one."

That said I agree they could've handled the ticket better. They salted at the admin and got a bit too aggressive, and that's not going to make for a good back-and-forth.

What looks worse a ban or a note?

[sinfulbliss]

What looks worse a ban or a note?

So if you get bwoinked, the end goal should be to get noted to avoid a ban? That's silly. If you were justified in your actions then the end goal should be to explain the situation thoroughly enough to where the admin understands your rationale. Getting told to be more careful in my view means that the admin still believes there was something wrong about your conduct.

You would literally have to have a very good argument that you were very careful but
a) were tricked by an antag
b) was being banbaited into killing someone
c) had genuine misinformation
That, and have the patience to write down your defence during the ahelp.

Exactly. All of these are great reasons why someone might make a mistake that leads to a bwoink, that they couldn't have been anymore careful about. Especially (c). If something like that happened you shouldn't reply in the way BONERMASTER suggests IMO.

[dirk_mcblade]

What looks worse a ban or a note?

So if you get bwoinked, the end goal should be to get noted to avoid a ban? That's silly. If you were justified in your actions then the end goal should be to explain the situation thoroughly enough to where the admin understands your rationale. Getting told to be more careful in my view means that the admin still believes there was something wrong about your conduct.

You might get noted you might not, but you can either take an offramp or gamble the possible note for a possible ban. Are you the kind of guy who hits on 17 in blackjack?

[chocolate_bickie]

What looks worse a ban or a note?

So if you get bwoinked, the end goal should be to get noted to avoid a ban? That's silly. If you were justified in your actions then the end goal should be to explain the situation thoroughly enough to where the admin understands your rationale. Getting told to be more careful in my view means that the admin still believes there was something wrong about your conduct.

You might get noted you might not, but you can either take an offramp or gamble the possible note for a possible ban. Are you the kind of guy who hits on 17 in blackjack?

This metaphor fails because notes aren't independent of each other.

Each note you receive increases the odds of a future ban.

Letting one wrong note slide brings you one note closer to a permaban.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Quibbling about ticking up towards the dreaded unappealable note-based ban aside, this is a very good writeup about not being an idiot in an ahelp.

[BONERMASTER]

Whenever you hear the admin say the signal words "just be careful", that's your cue to stop arguing, period. The admin is letting you off, all you do now is say "thank you, yes I will!"

After which you will be given a permanent note reminding you to be more careful. You will appeal, be hit with the "you cannot appeal a fact-based note," and after a long back-and-forth might get a word or two edited in it.

Hey Jason Bull, let me remind you why I have a ficticious, not in any way or shape connected to the real word, law firm, and you don't:

The vast bulk of reasons behind politely accepting the admin's statements without challenging them (much), presumes, that you're getting off scot free. If they're saying you're getting a note, then you're not getting off scot free, are you? So then this changes the situation, which is a beautiful thing about all this legalese, there are so many factors that can completely change the case you're having. My comment on appealing a note is mainly to answer the risk of an admin alluding to doing nothing and then still placing a note behind your back. If a wrongful detail ends up in the note, you can always clear it out in the appeal, easy, that's what I meant with that.

Still, before you go mouthing off to an admin, you should consider how savvy you actually are with your legalese. Because you have to try really hard to fuck up an appeal to have your sentence increased. In a Bwoink though, really easy! And chances are, if you often find yourself getting berated by admins or getting notes placed, that you're going to fuck it up, really easy!

Further, you likely will be:
-Agitated
-Nervous
-Put under pressure
-Uncomfortable
-Desperate

and many other unhelpful afflictions when you're about to face a really shitty judgement. So if a triple round-removal as a non-antag is in the room, and the admin scolds you to be more careful and gives you a note for overescalation, maybe consider sitting this one out, and taking your time when making an appeal. Remember, it can get a lot worse in a Bwoink, it can't (really) in an appeal.

At the end of the day, you're going to have to argue it either way! You can't just say "hey, I disagree" and poof, note gone! And depending on how much dirt you have on you, you should choose carefully how you're going to do it.

OK, Mister Bull?

And as for the "factual notes are unappealable" comment, all I'll say here is my favourite word "context" and to contact BONERMASTER & Associates (NOT A REAL LAW FIRM) to find out how 'unappealable' this note really is.


With appealing regards
-BONERMASTER

[Nabski]

There was a guideline at some point to never increase sentences because of an appeal.

The few times that it's been seen to be not true the person dug their own grave on the topic, failing the "only break one law at a time" rule of drug dealing.

[Nabski]

The best way to defend yourself during a ticket is to just log off as soon as you hear the bwoink.

[Kendrickorium]

Whenever you hear the admin say the signal words "just be careful", that's your cue to stop arguing, period. The admin is letting you off, all you do now is say "thank you, yes I will!"

After which you will be given a permanent note reminding you to be more careful. You will appeal, be hit with the "you cannot appeal a fact-based note," and after a long back-and-forth might get a word or two edited in it.

Hey Jason Bull, let me remind you why I have a ficticious, not in any way or shape connected to the real word, law firm, and you don't:

The vast bulk of reasons behind politely accepting the admin's statements without challenging them (much), presumes, that you're getting off scot free. If they're saying you're getting a note, then you're not getting off scot free, are you? So then this changes the situation, which is a beautiful thing about all this legalese, there are so many factors that can completely change the case you're having. My comment on appealing a note is mainly to answer the risk of an admin alluding to doing nothing and then still placing a note behind your back. If a wrongful detail ends up in the note, you can always clear it out in the appeal, easy, that's what I meant with that.

Still, before you go mouthing off to an admin, you should consider how savvy you actually are with your legalese. Because you have to try really hard to fuck up an appeal to have your sentence increased. In a Bwoink though, really easy! And chances are, if you often find yourself getting berated by admins or getting notes placed, that you're going to fuck it up, really easy!

Further, you likely will be:
-Agitated
-Nervous
-Put under pressure
-Uncomfortable
-Desperate

and many other unhelpful afflictions when you're about to face a really shitty judgement. So if a triple round-removal as a non-antag is in the room, and the admin scolds you to be more careful and gives you a note for overescalation, maybe consider sitting this one out, and taking your time when making an appeal. Remember, it can get a lot worse in a Bwoink, it can't (really) in an appeal.

At the end of the day, you're going to have to argue it either way! You can't just say "hey, I disagree" and poof, note gone! And depending on how much dirt you have on you, you should choose carefully how you're going to do it.

OK, Mister Bull?

And as for the "factual notes are unappealable" comment, all I'll say here is my favourite word "context" and to contact BONERMASTER & Associates (NOT A REAL LAW FIRM) to find out how 'unappealable' this note really is.


With appealing regards
-BONERMASTER

for the love of god Yobihodazine, read what this man has to say

[sinfulbliss]

The vast bulk of reasons behind politely accepting the admin's statements without challenging them (much), presumes, that you're getting off scot free. If they're saying you're getting a note, then you're not getting off scot free, are you? So then this changes the situation, which is a beautiful thing about all this legalese, there are so many factors that can completely change the case you're having. My comment on appealing a note is mainly to answer the risk of an admin alluding to doing nothing and then still placing a note behind your back. If a wrongful detail ends up in the note, you can always clear it out in the appeal, easy, that's what I meant with that.

Respectfully, the Bull-Bliss firm disagrees with your approach. Admins will rarely state their intent behind a ticket early on, mainly because they don’t have your story yet. If they do plan on noting you, they will only say so at the very end of the ticket, after the conversation has concluded and, damningly, you’ve already agreed to be more careful and thus admit your conduct left something to be desired. At which point, there’s nothing left to argue! “I will be leaving a note to record the fact we’ve had this conversation.” What are you supposed to say to that? “NO, YOU DON’T NEED TO RECORD THIS CONVERSATION!” At this point further conversation in ticket and appealing have little to no point.

And it’s because of this, Mr. BONERMASTER, that your “half-measure” of advising clients to nod their head and bend over, BEGGING for the lightest sentence possible, will only be applicable in the most dire of rule breaks, and cannot be followed as standard advice for every little bwoink one receives! One must merit their strongest defense and concede nothing, if one truly believes he has done nothing.

With tenacious regards,
SinfulBliss

[CandyClown]

If y'all didn't break the rules so much you wouldn't have to worry about what happens when you do.

[BONERMASTER]

The vast bulk of reasons behind politely accepting the admin's statements without challenging them (much), presumes, that you're getting off scot free. If they're saying you're getting a note, then you're not getting off scot free, are you? So then this changes the situation, which is a beautiful thing about all this legalese, there are so many factors that can completely change the case you're having. My comment on appealing a note is mainly to answer the risk of an admin alluding to doing nothing and then still placing a note behind your back. If a wrongful detail ends up in the note, you can always clear it out in the appeal, easy, that's what I meant with that.

Respectfully, the Bull-Bliss firm disagrees with your approach. Admins will rarely state their intent behind a ticket early on, mainly because they don’t have your story yet. If they do plan on noting you, they will only say so at the very end of the ticket, after the conversation has concluded and, damningly, you’ve already agreed to be more careful and thus admit your conduct left something to be desired. At which point, there’s nothing left to argue! “I will be leaving a note to record the fact we’ve had this conversation.” What are you supposed to say to that? “NO, YOU DON’T NEED TO RECORD THIS CONVERSATION!” At this point further conversation in ticket and appealing have little to no point.

And it’s because of this, Mr. BONERMASTER, that your “half-measure” of advising clients to nod their head and bend over, BEGGING for the lightest sentence possible, will only be applicable in the most dire of rule breaks, and cannot be followed as standard advice for every little bwoink one receives! One must merit their strongest defense and concede nothing, if one truly believes he has done nothing.

With tenacious regards,
SinfulBliss

I am looking forward to counselling all of your clients on the malpractice lawsuits that will be heading your way!

(It would be best, if you got yourself familiar with this in advance -> https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... 30192.html)


With blissful regards
-BONERMASTER

[Itseasytosee2me]

Who are the associates?

[BONERMASTER]

Who are the associates?

With discreet regards
-BONERMASTER