toemas tosses pseudo-DDOSer into a plasmafire, gets banned by Scriptis

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Peanut thread for: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32753

If you ask me, regardless of if toemas' ban is justified or not, I would issue a perma to Seth Deces for those lines toemas put under "damning evidence". That screams "Intentionally lagged the server" to me, along with joking about DDOS, and clear intent.

Any ways to make the thread title more inflammatory? Give me your suggestions below!

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I think they both fucked up here. Scriptis probably should've put Seth on Thunderdome or otherwise isolated him so he didn't lag anyone else and Thomas shouldn't have yeeted Seth for breaking rules without ahelping him first.

You really going to ignore my ahelp earlier in the thread

How you gonna have time to hop on to Sybil to bwoink me for stealing shoes as an assistant on LRP, but then you see this man creating lag machines the majority of his recent shifts and ain't gonna address it?

Smh

[Indie-ana Jones]

I think there should have been a ban here, but not for Toemas.

[Tearling]

if someone had come to lynch the engineer setting up this monstrosity (instead of what actually happened, which was everyone admiring it) I genuinely wouldn't have considered it a rule break.

If they had thrown them into the supermatter crystal, or effectively round removed them in some way (as in this case by throwing them into a plasmafire) do you still think that's a justified punishment for something the player rightfully believed was sanctioned by an admin?

however a ban like this feels like it serves little practical purpose

It serves two purposes:

• It's not the job of the player to determine who has, and hasn't, broken the rules.

• It, like any ban, is a form of punishment to prevent something like this occurring again.

There is no rule set that says players can kill other players for breaking the rules, and rightfully so, if we were allowed to round remove people for alleged rulebreaks LRP would be a forum nightmare of "I had reason to believe he was breaking the rules, and since I was acting on what little IC information I had, it was justified."

It's like people reading rule 8 violating stuff on comms, would I ahelp him? Yes. Would i also toss them out of an airlock? Yes.

I think it's more similar to... 2 specific players are always sticking to each other, and because they seem to act for each other without talking, John Doe assume they're metacomming. Then, instead of informing an admin, John Doe stuns and cuffs the two of them. Then, after they ask him to stop, they call him a dickhead, so he decapitates them in a hidden part of maintainence. Then, once the round is over, it turns out they were metacomming, but under the discretion of an admin.
Is John Doe justified here for assuming they were breaking the rules?
Is that assumption enough to warrant round removing the two hypothetical friends?

Since this is a big post I'll just hide a prediction at the end.
Headmins will probably follow the popular opinion if this gets to the headmin review stage because of what happened in the Dreary decision. So despite all of this, toemas will probably still be unbanned and the note removed.

[Archie700]

2 people metacomming is definitely not on the level of doing an exploit that has caused people to lag multiple times and blowing up toxins afterwards.

[Timberpoes]

Ordinarily I'd agree Tearling, but in extenuating enough circumstances it serves absolutely no useful purpose to punish someone just for the sake of punishing them.

From a pure policy perspective, ahelping rule breakers is more important than breaking the rules to valid them. It's important because admins have the ability to talk to players and ensure they know why their conduct was against the rules, and explain the rules if necessary in the process. The key steps towards players no longer breaking the rules. Merely placing notes and bans is tertiary to that initial purpose.

Ordinarily when you witness someone breaking the rules, and you break the rules in response to that, the admin is just dealing with two rule breakers and both will get booped.

I think there's enough extenuating about the situation that it can just be let slide under an exception rather than doggedly pursued as the rule.

Accordingly I don't think our servers are benefitting from punishing thoman like this, their reputation as a dent-headed, burned out shitter and the breath of fresh air the servers are having while they're gone excepted.

[Kendrickorium]

this thread title is severely disappointing.

how about "man who is told to ahelp before doing things does thing without ahelping Peanut.

its not hard people. put some effort into it.

[Tearling]

2 people metacomming is definitely not on the level of doing an exploit that has caused people to lag multiple times and blowing up toxins afterwards.

Both are against the rules under regular circumstances. I would argue that it is definitely on the same level.

I think there's enough extenuating about the situation that it can just be let slide under an exception rather than doggedly pursued as the rule.

And I don't think there is.
Toemas would have not ahelped, and not killed Seth, had Seth been kind. It was, according to toemas himself, Seth's insult that caused toemas to decide to round remove him by throwing him into the plasmafire.

This is not punishment for punishment's sake, this is punishment for the sake of toemas and the server itself. Toemas will hopefully grow from this ban (he probably won't, to be fair) and ahelp in the next situation similar to this one. The server will benefit from this ban because it will encourage people to ahelp rulebreaks rather than take it into their own hands.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

"Yeah they burned down your entire department, but you still shouldn't have killed them!"

???

???????????

HUH?

Edit: Oh, he's saying killing him was fine, but round removing him wasn't. I didn't read it very clearly the first time. I still disagree with Sciptis' opinion though, even though I understand how he came to it.

[ChristopherRobin]

If the server lags, should that make anyone who is building an autism project valid on the grounds that they could be lagging the server?
Is it really smart to let people kill each other in the name of reducing lag?

To quote Tearling and T-poes,

Spoiler:

if someone had come to lynch the engineer setting up this monstrosity (instead of what actually happened, which was everyone admiring it) I genuinely wouldn't have considered it a rule break.

2 specific players are always sticking to each other, and because they seem to act for each other without talking, John Doe assume they're metacomming. Then, instead of informing an admin, John Doe stuns and cuffs the two of them. Then, after they ask him to stop, they call him a dickhead, so he decapitates them in a hidden part of maintainence.

Should we really be letting players assume whether or not others are breaking the rules and kill them on that assumption when the entire point of ahelping a situation is to have an admin confirm if someone is actually breaking the rules?
If there is a precedent that players who see a rule break should resolve that shit IC, what is the point of ahelp at all?

[sinfulbliss]

There is no rule set that says players can kill other players for breaking the rules, and rightfully so, if we were allowed to round remove people for alleged rulebreaks LRP would be a forum nightmare of "I had reason to believe he was breaking the rules, and since I was acting on what little IC information I had, it was justified."

If the server lags, should that make anyone who is building an autism project valid on the grounds that they could be lagging the server?

They didn't kill Seth for "breaking the rules." You guys are hyper-fixating on this point. They killed him for doing something that caused grief (chatspam, firelock hell), while burning down his department and as a result ruining his round. Now, plasmafloods happen, and accidents happen. No one would recommend RR'ing a scientist for accidentally plasmaflooding toxins. But it is lynchable, and in the context of it being done while testing what was fairly perceived by other players to be a lag device which causes grief, it makes more sense.

Also, try to think about it from his perspective. He cuffed them to give them a chance to at least apologize for ruining his round. Instead they called him a dickhead and seemed completely unapologetic. I mean, imagine someone burns your department to the ground by their own mistake, and their only response is "accidents happen, now uncuff me dickhead."

[...] their reputation as a dent-headed, burned out shitter and the breath of fresh air the servers are having while they're gone excepted.

When did anyone agree on this??? I enjoy playing with Thoman and find him a fun sec player, as do a ton of people that play Sybil. The only people that have expressed this opinion are like a couple admins on this thread that I've never seen interact with him IC.

[Kendrickorium]

philip a good boy.

[Vekter]

I think they both fucked up here. Scriptis probably should've put Seth on Thunderdome or otherwise isolated him so he didn't lag anyone else and Thomas shouldn't have yeeted Seth for breaking rules without ahelping him first.

You really going to ignore my ahelp earlier in the thread

How you gonna have time to hop on to Sybil to bwoink me for stealing shoes as an assistant on LRP, but then you see this man creating lag machines the majority of his recent shifts and ain't gonna address it?

Smh

70mbgs.jpg

I know this comes as a shock, but my primary job and desire in life is not to hop on and bitch at people for doing stupid shit. I wasn't online when this went down.

I -was- online when someone was complaining to me about you doing an annoying gimmick, so I asked you to tone it down. I didn't even fucking note you for it, I just asked you (nicely) to not make it a habit or overdo it.

[Agux909]

Scriptis doubling down on this instead of admitting his mistake is so dissapointing. We've lost him to the self-righteousness one risks when becoming an admin. It's sad but Toemas should make a complaint if the appeal is overturned by headmins.

[Timberpoes]

[...] their reputation as a dent-headed, burned out shitter and the breath of fresh air the servers are having while they're gone excepted.

When did anyone agree on this??? I enjoy playing with Thoman and find him a fun sec player, as do a ton of people that play Sybil. The only people that have expressed this opinion are like a couple admins on this thread that I've never seen interact with him IC.

Part of the reason this was a 3 day ban instead of simply a warning (or even a 1 day ban) that anyone else would get is a direct reflection of their administrative record.

Overescalation to the point of genuine rule breaking in response to real (or percieved) slights is at least common enough that they're now on the escalating ban stairmaster.

But within the greater context of this specific incident, I think it can just be left to lie. I don't think there's any greater community benefit from keeping this ban considering thoman's behaviour was partially in response to the player creating lag machines and/or things that spam chat.

It just feels off that thoman's the one that ends up banned for mercing a player testing out something they know to lag live servers, across multiple shifts, and in this case directly infront of him setting off a toxins fire in the process.

[ChristopherRobin]

Also, try to think about it from his perspective. He cuffed them to give them a chance to at least apologize for ruining his round. Instead they called him a dickhead and seemed completely unapologetic. I mean, imagine someone burns your department to the ground by their own mistake, and their only response is "accidents happen, now uncuff me dickhead."

Yeah, I find myself in situations like this all the time. Atmosia and Toxins are regularly obliterated by my collogues who don't know what they are doing, and they are almost never apologetic. This always results in some mixture of robusting/demoting/throwing out of engi, but RRing someone for being an ass about their fuckup is totally out of the question and always has been. I myself have recently been banned for RRing someone after they came back from getting thrown out for Bindy Johaling my department, so RRing is apparently some super off-limits thing that non-antags are almost never allowed to do to other non-antags.

The only excuse that toemas has for RRing is that Hoolny was doing something that causes lag. Hence why this discussion is fixated on whether or not someone can be killed for rulebreak/lag inducing.
As Scriptis emphasized in the appeal itself, it is completely against the rules to RR someone for destroying your department, even if they are an ass about it.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I think they both fucked up here. Scriptis probably should've put Seth on Thunderdome or otherwise isolated him so he didn't lag anyone else and Thomas shouldn't have yeeted Seth for breaking rules without ahelping him first.

You really going to ignore my ahelp earlier in the thread

How you gonna have time to hop on to Sybil to bwoink me for stealing shoes as an assistant on LRP, but then you see this man creating lag machines the majority of his recent shifts and ain't gonna address it?

Smh

70mbgs.jpg

I know this comes as a shock, but my primary job and desire in life is not to hop on and bitch at people for doing stupid shit. I wasn't online when this went down.

I -was- online when someone was complaining to me about you doing an annoying gimmick, so I asked you to tone it down. I didn't even fucking note you for it, I just asked you (nicely) to not make it a habit or overdo it.

Vekter, in case the SpongeBob meme wasn't enough of a giveaway, I'm just poking fun, I'm not upset at you or questioning your ability to admeme. I actually can't think of a single administrative decision you've made that I disagree with. I know you can't be everywhere at once, and it's not your job to handle 100% of everything.

You were very nice in my bwoink and I think you're a credit to the team.

[Vekter]

I know this comes as a shock, but my primary job and desire in life is not to hop on and bitch at people for doing stupid shit. I wasn't online when this went down.

I -was- online when someone was complaining to me about you doing an annoying gimmick, so I asked you to tone it down. I didn't even fucking note you for it, I just asked you (nicely) to not make it a habit or overdo it.

Vekter, in case the SpongeBob meme wasn't enough of a giveaway, I'm just poking fun, I'm not upset at you or questioning your ability to admeme. I actually can't think of a single administrative decision you've made that I disagree with. I know you can't be everywhere at once, and it's not your job to handle 100% of everything.

You were very nice in my bwoink and I think you're a credit to the team.
[/quote]

Genuinely hard to tell sometimes, I did have someone threaten to doxx me over something where I'd told him off for breaking the rules ages ago. I appreciate the words of praise, thank you very much friend.

[Scriptis]

It's out of my hands now, so I'm going to be straight with you.

If you stun baton and cuff me while I'm dying from a plasma fire that I fucked up and caused, I reserve the right to call you a dick. I'm dying. Right now. From my fuck-up. I want to be in medbay. Not here with you stunning and cuffing me.

If you throw me into the plasma fire I caused instead of helping, I'm probably going to be pretty miffed if you weren't an antagonist.

[toemas]

Accordingly I don't think our servers are benefitting from punishing thoman like this, their reputation as a dent-headed, burned out shitter and the breath of fresh air the servers are having while they're gone excepted.

seth and thomas are both bad faith griefer losers that should have been banned years ago

I'm far from fond of toemas

[Archie700]

The problem with this was that Seth's behaviour was such that the explosion of toxins cannot be attributed to a stupid accident by this point.
Seth's behaviour was basically using a lag machine multiple round, which is equivalent to OOC griefing, and the fact that Scriptis approved of this does not change that because no other player knew of it.

With regards to the stupid condenser chains: I had only seen them the round prior (and the round where this ban was placed), and, again, I profiled the contraption to ensure it wasn't affecting server performance. It was not. Announce that I approved it? Why? From where I'm standing, it's not a big deal. It's not causing lag, and it's somebody's atmos experiment.

Scriptis, did you ask Seth why he wanted to do the condenser chain? Did you know they caused lag before that?

[Scriptis]

Seth's behaviour was basically using a lag machine multiple round [...]

I'm not omnipresent. This is the first time I've seen this contraption in actual action, the round previous had a 210 (!!)-condenser chain that got somebody into hot shit by another admin. Even then, I was having dinner and was idle for most of the round.

Scriptis, did you ask Seth why he wanted to do the condenser chain? Did you know they caused lag before that?

Judging by the fact that he had the thing in a holofirelock box in a secluded corner of the station (ordnance), it's reasonable to assume it was to test its efficacy for cooling.

I personally have tried using bulk condensers to cool the supermatter engine. It's not the dumbest thing I've seen, and I encourage players to push the game's systems to their limits--as long as it's not hurting anybody, like the grief it caused the round prior. In this case, it didn't look like it was an issue.

I didn't know anything about what else he had done prior other than somebody getting bopped over it, but the condenser chain this round wasn't nearly as impactful (or laggy) as the one prior.

[Archie700]

Seth's behaviour was basically using a lag machine multiple round [...]

I'm not omnipresent. This is the first time I've seen this contraption in actual action, the round previous had a 210 (!!)-condenser chain that got somebody into hot shit by another admin. Even then, I was having dinner and was idle for most of the round.

Scriptis, did you ask Seth why he wanted to do the condenser chain? Did you know they caused lag before that?

Judging by the fact that he had the thing in a holofirelock box in a secluded corner of the station (ordnance), it's reasonable to assume it was to test its efficacy for cooling.

I personally have tried using bulk condensers to cool the supermatter engine. It's not the dumbest thing I've seen, and I encourage players to push the game's systems to their limits--as long as it's not hurting anybody, like the grief it caused the round prior. In this case, it didn't look like it was an issue.

I didn't know anything about what else he had done prior other than somebody getting bopped over it, but the condenser chain this round wasn't nearly as impactful (or laggy) as the one prior.

Ah, with that context, I could say you made the decision to allow Seth to do that in good faith.

The problem was that Seth was trying to do something that caused lag, though with fewer condensers, and I believe the lag was client-side due to having to load so much, so it wouldn't have been notice on the server itself.

There's also the assertion that he did it multiple rounds with lag, but I don't have the details.

EDIT: So I looked into last round and it turns out Seth knew about the 200-condenser monstrosity and logs implied he MADE IT.

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/194 ... e=game.txt

Code: Select all

03:34:34	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "lkucy"	(96, 105, 2)	Medbay Central
03:34:35	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "lucy"	(96, 105, 2)	Medbay Central
03:34:37	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "OH YM GOD"	(96, 105, 2)	Medbay Central
03:34:38	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "LUCY"	(96, 105, 2)	Medbay Central
03:34:41	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "CHECK"	(89, 103, 2)	Medbay Central
03:34:42	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "THS PUT"	(89, 103, 2)	Medbay Central
03:35:26	EMOTE	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) screams!	(88, 89, 2)	Medbay Central
03:35:27	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "i did it"	(88, 89, 2)	Medbay Central
03:35:55	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "THE ULTIAMTE MACHIEN IS MINE"	(92, 79, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:02	EMOTE	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) gasps!	(95, 80, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:29	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "i did it"	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:31	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "teh ultimate"	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:32	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "machine"	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:32	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "is so"	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:33	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "funny"	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:34	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "ahahah"	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:34	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "haahah"	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:37	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "IM SO"	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:38	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "PROUD"	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:39	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "OF MYSELF"	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:47	EMOTE	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) seizes up and falls limp, their eyes dead and lifeless...	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:48	ACCESS	Mob Login: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) was assigned to a /mob/dead/observer		
03:36:48	GAME	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) Client Hoolny/(Seth Deces) has taken ownership of mob Seth Deces(/mob/dead/observer)	(89, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:51	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "HAAHAH"	(90, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:36:52	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "AHAHAH"	(90, 81, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:43	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "I MADE"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:44	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "IT"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:46	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "ITS BEAUTIFUL"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:51	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "I made that"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:52	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "im so proud"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:53	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "of ymself"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:54	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "no"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:56	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "its not 20"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:56	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "its"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:57	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "250"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:59	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "consumers"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:37:59	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "together"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:38:02	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "or more"	(90, 98, 2)	Medbay Central
03:38:04	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "yep"

Code: Select all

SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "does the machine"	(126, 159, 2)	Fore Maintenance
03:42:40	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "only lag the area around you right"	(124, 148, 2)	Locker Room
03:42:49	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "how far"	(126, 121, 2)	Central Primary Hallway
03:42:50	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "were you"	(126, 116, 2)	Central Primary Hallway
03:43:00	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "thats"	(119, 114, 2)	Central Primary Hallway
03:43:01	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "so"	(116, 114, 2)	Central Primary Hallway
03:43:03	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "funy

Code: Select all

03:48:03	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "LUCY what the fuck why did you kill me :("	(112, 166, 2)	Brig
03:48:11	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "you took my machine and took it for yours"	(107, 152, 2)	Fore Primary Hallway
03:48:12	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "how dare you"	(105, 145, 2)	Central Primary Hallway
03:48:14	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "I worked hard"	(105, 145, 2)	Central Primary Hallway
03:48:17	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "on making that thing

Code: Select all

03:48:57	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "FEATURE"	(147, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
03:49:00	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "I called it"	(147, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
03:49:02	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "its a feature guys"	(147, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
03:49:46	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "Imagine beign a DDOSER putting money into laggign TG seervers"	(127, 134, 2)	Central Primary Hallway
03:49:48	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "when all you need"	(126, 137, 2)	Central Primary Hallway
03:49:51	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "is a couple of igniters"

[Scriptis]

The problem was that Seth was trying to do something that caused lag, though with fewer condensers, and I believe the lag was client-side due to having to load so much, so it wouldn't have been notice on the server itself.

There's also the assertion that he did it multiple rounds with lag, but I don't have the details.

Again, it's not my place to argue Seth's case over multiple rounds at this point (conflict of interest?), but with the condenser chain being on the lower Z-level of icebox ordnance:

- Chat message spam and related lag would be limited to people in that room (Hoolny and Thoman)
- Icebox ordnance is dumb and the cans are in the same room as your lab, so it's infinitely easier to fuck up and fuck up hard

[toemas]

The problem was that Seth was trying to do something that caused lag, though with fewer condensers, and I believe the lag was client-side due to having to load so much, so it wouldn't have been notice on the server itself.

There's also the assertion that he did it multiple rounds with lag, but I don't have the details.

Again, it's not my place to argue Seth's case over multiple rounds at this point (conflict of interest?), but with the condenser chain being on the lower Z-level of icebox ordnance:

- Chat message spam and related lag would be limited to people in that room (Hoolny and Thoman)
- Icebox ordnance is dumb and the cans are in the same room as your lab, so it's infinitely easier to fuck up and fuck up hard

he was doing it in other public places right next to people in the same round

[Archie700]

The problem was that Seth was trying to do something that caused lag, though with fewer condensers, and I believe the lag was client-side due to having to load so much, so it wouldn't have been notice on the server itself.

There's also the assertion that he did it multiple rounds with lag, but I don't have the details.

Again, it's not my place to argue Seth's case over multiple rounds at this point (conflict of interest?), but with the condenser chain being on the lower Z-level of icebox ordnance:

- Chat message spam and related lag would be limited to people in that room (Hoolny and Thoman)
- Icebox ordnance is dumb and the cans are in the same room as your lab, so it's infinitely easier to fuck up and fuck up hard

he was doing it in other public places right next to people in the same round

I can at least say from the logs that he pointed at it in Research Division and RnD lab

[Scriptis]

I can at least say from the logs that he pointed at it in Research Division and RnD lab

Given that he ahelped before actually using it in ordnance, I was aware at this point that no firelocks were down in the R&D lab (or nearby), which leads me to believe it didn't see any use outside of a holofirelock box.

In any case, it'll turn up in headmin review. And, as for the prior rounds, somebody'll probably pick it up to investigate.

[ChristopherRobin]

What's the record for fastest headmin review?

[san7890]

What's the record for fastest headmin review?

mothblocks would sometimes hang in the rafters as soon as headmin review was requested just to slam it down to uphold the ban (overturning bans had to be unanimous during their term)

[Indie-ana Jones]

Glad to see the headmins made the right choice here. Seeing some the takes on this one surprised me honestly, wasn't sure how the headmins were going to lean.

[BlueMemesauce]

There is no rule set that says players can kill other players for breaking the rules, and rightfully so, if we were allowed to round remove people for alleged rulebreaks LRP would be a forum nightmare of "I had reason to believe he was breaking the rules, and since I was acting on what little IC information I had, it was justified."

But there is a rule that you can kill players for sabotaging your workplace and setting it on fire.

[Tearling]

Since this is a big post I'll just hide a prediction at the end.
Headmins will probably follow the popular opinion if this gets to the headmin review stage because of what happened in the Dreary decision. So despite all of this, toemas will probably still be unbanned and the note removed.

Aaand to noones surprise the headmins chose the popular choice rather than the correct one.

[saprasam]

Since this is a big post I'll just hide a prediction at the end.
Headmins will probably follow the popular opinion if this gets to the headmin review stage because of what happened in the Dreary decision. So despite all of this, toemas will probably still be unbanned and the note removed.

Aaand to noones surprise the headmins chose the popular choice rather than the correct one.

this is probably the most reasonable & fair outcome fym

[ChristopherRobin]

Basically just throwing Scriptis under the bus for allowing this situation to happen in the first place.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Since this is a big post I'll just hide a prediction at the end.
Headmins will probably follow the popular opinion if this gets to the headmin review stage because of what happened in the Dreary decision. So despite all of this, toemas will probably still be unbanned and the note removed.

Aaand to noones surprise the headmins chose the popular choice rather than the correct one.

I can point to many instances in which headmins go against the popular opinion.
What's your argument again? that toemas shouldn't get to play judge jury and executioner on someone making a lag machine? I can think of many instances, it which is normalized, and in some cases even endorsed to valid players based on them breaking the rules. Examples include Woody's Got Wood, and killing people who direct irl slurs.

[iamgoofball]

Scriptis covered up evidence of me posting evidence the exploit was an exploit, and then accidentally admitted to knowing the admins were already investigating it as a source of grief the previous round lmao


i made an admin complaint at viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32762 but they need to approve it, screenshot below for now if they try to cover it up even more:

[Tearling]

I can point to many instances in which headmins go against the popular opinion.

I'm talking about these headmins specifically, and specifically this term. I'm specifically referencing a case where they went against popular opinion and got huge backlash for it, which would, of course, cause them to be less likely to go against popular opinion in the future.

For the rest of your message... if you want me to reiterate my argument just go read the number of posts I've already made in this thread.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Scriptis covered up evidence of me posting evidence the exploit was an exploit, and then accidentally admitted to knowing the admins were already investigating it as a source of grief the previous round lmao


i made an admin complaint at viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32762 but they need to approve it, screenshot below for now if they try to cover it up even more:

Use dark mode, my guy

[iwishforducks]

our escalation rules are great but i think we give bad faith actors too much protection under them- especially in this case. we need to realize that people going out of their way to grief should open themselves to IC punishment- or in space man terms, “valid”.

[Itseasytosee2me]

I can point to many instances in which headmins go against the popular opinion.

I'm talking about these headmins specifically, and specifically this term. I'm specifically referencing a case where they went against popular opinion and got huge backlash for it, which would, of course, cause them to be less likely to go against popular opinion in the future.

For the rest of your message... if you want me to reiterate my argument just go read the number of posts I've already made in this thread.

Nah that is fair

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Headmemes did their best. Decision was made on reasonable doubt basis - they're basically saying Scriptis was probably right, but there's just enough reasonable doubt that they're not comfortable with keeping the note.

That's not really screwing over Scriptis, imo. They said his actions were justified at the time, it's just that with multiple shifts of exploitative behavior from Seth, this incident became a lot more murky.

Overall, Scriptis a good boy, who did nothing wrong (in terms of his banning toemas anyway - did he do anything wrong regarding the exploit? That's another matter). If toemas doesn't learn from this free W, this one overturn won't mean much in the long run, because he will eventually be banned for more concrete cases.

[iamgoofball]

Overall, Scriptis a good boy

No, Scriptis is not a "good boy", they actively believe they did nothing wrong here despite
1. approving a known exploit to produce lag to be deployed on the server
2. repeatedly quadrupling down on claiming they did nothing wrong
3. actively stating in discord that they believe it's okay for them to not do due diligence when players ahelp sketchy shit

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I can point to many instances in which headmins go against the popular opinion.

I'm talking about these headmins specifically, and specifically this term. I'm specifically referencing a case where they went against popular opinion and got huge backlash for it, which would, of course, cause them to be less likely to go against popular opinion in the future.

For the rest of your message... if you want me to reiterate my argument just go read the number of posts I've already made in this thread.

Sometimes the popular opinion is the correct one. Just because the insult may have been what pushed Thoman over the line doesn't mean that it wasn't AT the line because of the previous actions. A straw that broke the camel's back.

Plus as I said earlier, if a bunch of people come out of the woodworks who are known for having bad opinions of Thoman, and all say "Yeah this ban is bullshit", the popular opinion might be onto something this time.

[san7890]

-snip-

I'm talking about these headmins specifically, and specifically this term. I'm specifically referencing a case where they went against popular opinion and got huge backlash for it, which would, of course, cause them to be less likely to go against popular opinion in the future.

The unpopular opinion would simply be the wrong option in this case. Not subjectively wrong, objectively wrong. My explanation in the appeal thread talks about the derelict (at least I see it as a derelict) to admin conduct muddying the waters. The community (players) and admins (admins) aren't meant to be at opposition to each other, there might be conflicts/betrayals/whatever the fuck you wanna say- but it's not like they are two opposite ends of a football field.

If you're referencing that naming policy thing, people really like to think that "oh my god it's so fucking obvious are they dumb as a bag of bricks????? they are actively trying to destroy my trust in the community?" (slight strawman, but I did read these words in relation to that) when pretty much 99.5% of the discussion surrounding this (as far as players) happened in the manuelcord which I hardly ever look at. I don't know if I talked about this in public, but the reason why whatever happened (or at least how I involved myself) was specifically to avoid pigeonholing the community by creating new policy in a ban appeal (which is intentionally closed to public discourse) and preferring to just go with whatever was rolling with the other two so I could tackle the policy thread as that continues to evolve.

People (actually just one person, Yulice) kept referencing some "huge fiasco" while I was posting cats in #tgstation-general. A lot of my time that weekend was spent helping my mom clean out her basement over the course of those two days. I was asleep when Timberpoes dropped the bomb in adminbus, and I woke up to 200 messages in headminbus about God-knows-what. I still don't think I fully understand all of the dynamics that was going on there (it's a good thing Rave/Spookuni had a better grasp of whatever Manuel dynamics I'm unfamiliar with), and I think I'll go my whole life without understanding those dynamics (this is a good thing). I don't know if/how/why/when the other two decided to always pick, ride, and roll with the flow (which isn't true), you'd have to ask them.

[Capsandi]

Blah blah blah...
Use dark mode, my guy

You are using the forums wrong, hand over your keyboard
At the very least use the jungle theme if the light mode theme is too pristine

[Scriptis]

I'm cool with the headmin's decision, and now I get to go into a dark room with goofball. A fate worse than death.

You know, I could take this time to encourage people to apply to be admins on Sybil, but

i) no trainer interest to train sybil admins
ii) nobody wants to be an admin because of drama like this that gets stirred up
iii) we secretly never have any senior admins on sybil because they all quit because of drama like this getting stirred up
iv) drama like this being stirred up generates the expectation that admins need to be perfect and never fuck up
v) holy shit we fuck up all the time dude what did you expect
vi) there are only three consistently active admins on sybil and they're all junior admins and we're operating with like zero senior input beyond incomplete information through adminbus
vii) this is a toxic work environment, i'm putting in way too much effort, and i'm not getting paid

Spoiler:

please apply to be a sybil admin, there are vacancies and there will be more vacancies soon

[toemas]

Ok make me admin

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I'm cool with the headmin's decision, and now I get to go into a dark room with goofball. A fate worse than death.

You know, I could take this time to encourage people to apply to be admins on Sybil, but

i) no trainer interest to train sybil admins
ii) nobody wants to be an admin because of drama like this that gets stirred up
iii) we secretly never have any senior admins on sybil because they all quit because of drama like this getting stirred up
iv) drama like this being stirred up generates the expectation that admins need to be perfect and never fuck up
v) holy shit we fuck up all the time dude what did you expect
vi) there are only three consistently active admins on sybil and they're all junior admins and we're operating with like zero senior input beyond incomplete information through adminbus
vii) this is a toxic work environment, i'm putting in way too much effort, and i'm not getting paid

Spoiler:

please apply to be a sybil admin, there are vacancies and there will be more vacancies soon

Bro I applied to be a sybilmin, but I got denied for calling Manuel players Manuelets.

Just for you though, Ill appeal my discord ban in August just so I can field another app, look forward to it, I'm sure it will cause drama for everyone to popcorn over.

[Tearling]

The unpopular opinion would simply be the wrong option in this case. Not subjectively wrong, objectively wrong.

The unpopular opinion you're stating is objectively wrong in this case is: That a player should not take the rules into their own hands and round remove someone for breaking rule 1 precedent 4 without ahelping.
Is it fine, if in the future a similar situation happens this term, that I post this opinion of yours as precedent?

Also, I think you should change rule 1 precedent 4 to be more specific and match this interpretation of your ruling, because as it currently stands it suggests that admin intervention is necessary to allow the player to get away with improper escalation, I would suggest changing it from:

Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.

to

Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Affected parties may ignore normal escalation policy.

[iamgoofball]

iii) we secretly never have any senior admins on sybil because they all quit because of drama like this getting stirred up
iv) drama like this being stirred up generates the expectation that admins need to be perfect and never fuck up

Spoiler:

please apply to be a sybil admin, there are vacancies and there will be more vacancies soon

you and every single other admin who does this exact fuckin' pattern of behavior has the same two options:
1. say "ah yeah my bad, i was wrong, sorry"
2. quintuple down and never ever admit any form of fault whatsoever until it's far too late and has escalated to complaints/the entire community going "wtf"

every single time this happens at /tg/station, the admin picks 2

someday, an admin will pick 1 and be amazed how everyone immediately shuts the fuck up and stops caring because the admins demonstrated they aren't perfect and apologized for making a mistake

players will absolutely go hard on this because when we make mistakes, we have to draft a ban appeal and talk about how sorry we are to you, the admin banning us, and how we made a mistake and how we won't make that mistake again
when admins make mistakes, they get to deny the mistake happened, argue that there was no mistake, and then deny everything until headmins get involved and make an apology for them

it's simple as fuck, when you make a mistake and everyone calls you on it, just say "whoops, my bad, sorry" and then people will go away
don't append "ACTUALLY IT WAS JUSTIFIED BECAUSE X Y AND Z" that's how you end up looking like the admin who argued disposals is round removal

[Shadowflame909]

that's how you end up looking like the admin who argued disposals is round removal

Cere station haters remember

oh god cere station disposals

[Mice World]

You know, I could take this time to encourage people to apply to be admins on Sybil

Funny you mention this because I made an application earlier today. Highly doubt it will be accepted, as I don't have enough recent playtime and I'm sort of a controversial figure. But it never hurts to try right?