In this thread we come up with ways to end racism

[dirk_mcblade]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I can't think of a better way to get back at a racist from something like two years ago than to break forum rules.

[EmpressMaia]

embarrassing if this is the kind of company we allow

It really is. I regret opening this thread up to see the word vomit on display

[TheRex9001]

To be clear you think its acceptable to call someone ”nigger” because you got brigged?

Yes.

You know what, do this in game.

So then your intent is to demean, in which case rule 11 should cover it.

His intent is to demean in general, not demean based on "actual or perceived race". Rule 11 thus does strictly allow it.
[/quote]

As I proved in the previous thread saying the n word IC will get you permabanned.

To all the people suggesting we ban slurs regardless of intent, who gets to decide what is a slur? Some are obvious, such as "nigger", "faggot", et cetera, but what of words like "tranny" or even "gay"?

Simple, the obvious ones are fully banned and the not obvious ones you check the intent

What's the point and who decides what the obvious ones are?
"Tranny", "cunt", and "retard", for example. Are these slurs? I say they aren't, but I'd bet you that you can find someone who would reply to this question with "obviously".
[/quote]

Consensus, get admins and the host talking about what is and isnt a slur. Again intent matters most, its different if you use the n word as a perogative and just start screaming stuff like ”tranny” when you get arrested.

[TheRex9001]

embarrassing if this is the kind of company we allow

My only failure was not being bad enough to gatekeep you out of this community.

Gatekeeping sucks, and what do you mean failure by not being able to gatekeep a pretty friendly member of the community.

[nianjiilical]

i can think of at least 5-6 good friends i have outside /tg/, several of whom are active players on downstreams and at least one of which is/was a very active and talented coder who contributed a lot to one of them, and im pretty sure if i tried to get them to try out /tg/ they would very easily be able to use threads like this and mso's commentary as a good reason not to touch it, and i wouldnt have a very good argument against their judgement

just throwing that out here

[MrStonedOne]

For instance: I can stand existing in a world that offers me no protections for hearing mean words about my demographics, so I presume other demographic can as well.

I'm sure you can stand existing in a world like that (it's the world that we live in)
but would you like to live in a world with slightly more protections against "mean words about my demographics"?

No. I would not like to live in that world. This might be confusing because I often enforce something like this upon people, but I care more about the inequality in how much suspicion and bad faith ones words are viewed with when you are a straight cisgendered white man. You can't say ladies without losing out on well paying jobs because somebody figured out a way to argue it's racist against black people to do so. You can't call a function to get the head item in a queue Get_head() without getting fired for sexual harassment, you can't call your master branch in a github repo `master` without somebody trying to claim you support slavery by doing so. (because they forgot master/apprentice was a thing. sounds kinda racist against asians to me). Pushing the same level of assumptions of bad faith onto people when talking about majorities is a way of creating what i call forced empathy.

It should be zero shock to anybody here I am autistic and have social anxiety. So it should be zero shock to them as well that I do not support anything that creates more social faux pas or social landmines, especially when they are only enforced or treated with the same level of bad faith assumptions against certain demographics.

Now, given, I expect to have protections against mean words said about my demographics to me.

[ekaterina]

To be clear you think its acceptable to call someone ”nigger” because you got brigged?

Yes.

You know what, do this in game.

I'm a sec main, how would I get brigged, silly?

As I proved in the previous thread saying the n word IC will get you permabanned.

You didn't prove any such thing. You proved obvious trolls that are underage and evade bans get permabanned, and that some such trolls also resort to saying the word "nigger" to get an easy rise out of some people.

Consensus

Have we been able to reach a consensus thus far? I don't think we have, so what makes you think we would be able to if that rule were implemented?

[TheRex9001]

Saying ”nigger” is a filter bypass, and it Will get you banned. This is not something I am pulling out of my ass. As for consensus its difficult. Personally I think the Hosts could most likely come to a somewhat consensus, otherwise just look at intent.

[MrStonedOne]

Oh, and i think everybody in thread should know something they might not know:

The ban the og peanut was about?

It was the catalyst for me adding hard-rs to the hard filter.

[TheLoLSwat]

To be clear you think its acceptable to call someone ”nigger” because you got brigged?

Yes.

So then your intent is to demean, in which case rule 11 should cover it.

His intent is to demean in general, not demean based on "actual or perceived race". Rule 11 thus does strictly allow it.

They even strictly say that instead of [rules lawyering nonsense], the rule is for the ejection of bigotry from the community, and calling someone the hard r seems like it would be covered by rule 11 (especially the "calling someone" part)

[ekaterina]

[words and images]

Calling a person a nigger because that person is black is bigotry. Calling a person a nigger ignoring the person's race is not bigotry.

[TheRex9001]

To be clear you think its acceptable to call someone ”nigger” because you got brigged?

Yes.

So then your intent is to demean, in which case rule 11 should cover it.

His intent is to demean in general, not demean based on "actual or perceived race". Rule 11 thus does strictly allow it.

They even strictly say that instead of [rules lawyering nonsense], the rule is for the ejection of bigotry from the community, and calling someone the hard r seems like it would be covered by rule 11 (especially the "calling someone" part)

Thanks, I am on mobile and couldnt find a good way to put in that rule 11 clause.

[TheRex9001]

(Ignore funny doublepost)

[EmpressMaia]

Was mine and duck's post deleted?

[TheRex9001]

Was mine and duck's post deleted?

Nope, they are on page 1

[dirk_mcblade]

For instance: I can stand existing in a world that offers me no protections for hearing mean words about my demographics, so I presume other demographic can as well.

I'm sure you can stand existing in a world like that (it's the world that we live in)
but would you like to live in a world with slightly more protections against "mean words about my demographics"?

No. I would not like to live in that world. This might be confusing because I often enforce something like this upon people, but I care more about the inequality in how much suspicion and bad faith ones words are viewed with when you are a straight cisgendered white man. You can't say ladies without losing out on well paying jobs because somebody figured out a way to argue it's racist against black people to do so. You can't call a function to get the head item in a queue Get_head() without getting fired for sexual harassment, you can't call your master branch in a github repo `master` without somebody trying to claim you support slavery by doing so. (because they forgot master/apprentice was a thing. sounds kinda racist against asians to me). Pushing the same level of assumptions of bad faith onto people when talking about majorities is a way of creating what i call forced empathy.

It should be zero shock to anybody here I am autistic and have social anxiety. So it should be zero shock to them as well that I do not support anything that creates more social faux pas or social landmines, especially when they are only enforced or treated with the same level of bad faith assumptions against certain demographics.

Now, given, I expect to have protections against mean words said about my demographics to me.

My offer concerning the felinids still stands, by the way. It might decrease revenue in the long run. It might make people accuse you of tyranny and rage quit. But you never know, maybe the felinids are correlated with the social landmines squad.

[TheLoLSwat]

[words and images]

Calling a person a nigger because that person is black is bigotry. Calling a person a nigger ignoring the person's race is not bigotry.

Rule 11 is worded in a great way since it denies slimy rule lawyers. If an admin sees you calling another player a hard r as bigotry, (hopefully lol) they'll do something and they are free to as long as they are ejecting the expression of bigotry from the community.

[Boot]

[words and images]

Calling a person a nigger because that person is black is bigotry. Calling a person a nigger ignoring the person's race is not bigotry.

Rule 11 is worded in a great way since it denies slimy rule lawyers. If an admin sees you calling another player a hard r as bigotry, (hopefully lol) they'll do something and they are free to as long as they are ejecting the expression of bigotry from the community.

but its not right, explictly faggot is ok in some instances and not in others.

[Armhulen]

It's less so about sympathy for me and more about the effect allowing the yellow group of slurs has, for what we get out of it. With or without casual or random slur use we will still be a community that hosts, codes, sprites, discusses a game, but we'll be a community more people can join. There's spheres in my life unrelated to tg where I'm quite the political andy but when it comes to /tg/ I just want it to be the best. I want it to grow the fastest, I want it to be unkillable, where any one of us could drop dead and /tg/ itself will stay alive. And for it to absolutely crush other servers and become this immortal being yeah it does have to be a wider net that more people can be happy playing in.

I wouldn't lie, a big reason why I chose this place over others is because of how strong it is ALREADY. We do have the best host, we have the highest quality admins, we have high player counts, I love it.

I honestly feel ya on this. I would be lying if I said that I didn't feel the same way about certain irl topics creeping their way into the ss13 space. The idea that we can just have a fun space to decompress, kill some clowns and slip some secoffs free of the bullshit outside is an idea worth striving for. A big issue that I have is that I can count the number of times I saw nigger in game with both hands and like two of those are from me. So when I see abunch of people talking about something that I don't really see too often as this big deal that we need to do something new. Suddenly the IC filter was changed to a broad word filter which doesn't just cover somethings but anything the admin team wants. Out of nowhere I'm seeing words I've never even seen in game appearing on that filter. I have never seen Shemale or Tranny or Coon said in game before they were gonna be filtered out. So here I am, doing everything I can, seeing these crazy broad sweeping solutions to problems that I don't even see.

It's a small concession to give up being able to say slurs in most contexts but what you get from it is that there won't be politics. Don't think of it as siding with one side politically, think of it as leaving different spaces on the internet to debate over whether a slur hurt someone or not logically. No politics, just round based social deception roleplay. I mean you see how the right to say "faggot" in game is basically inviting the entire multi-year discussion in the first place, whereas other communities that hardban slurs never have these discussions at all. We are politicking because we're inviting politicking

[TheLoLSwat]

[words and images]

Calling a person a nigger because that person is black is bigotry. Calling a person a nigger ignoring the person's race is not bigotry.

Rule 11 is worded in a great way since it denies slimy rule lawyers. If an admin sees you calling another player a hard r as bigotry, (hopefully lol) they'll do something and they are free to as long as they are ejecting the expression of bigotry from the community.

but its not right, explictly faggot is ok in some instances and not in others.

I imagine its up to the admin to judge intent and then go from there. I have decent faith in them to get the actual shitters out

[conrad]

I think if everyone gets banned we solve racism by virtue of everyone getting banned.

[Armhulen]

I think if everyone gets banned we solve racism by virtue of everyone getting banned.

The Admin Take

[Chadley]

To be clear you think its acceptable to call someone ”nigger” because you got brigged?

Yes.

Making a case for keeping a banned slur in a video game is like the Japanese holdout in WWII fighting the wrong war. Why is this the hill to die on?

Pretty odd choice for devil's advocate takes... Right..?

I really don't understand the holdout here. What is the frequency in which you use slurs to which this is shattering your RP. If it's not directly affecting you, why are you trying to prevent it from being ushered out for the players who are genuinely bothered by it?

To all the people suggesting we ban slurs regardless of intent, who gets to decide what is a slur? Some are obvious, such as "nigger", "faggot", et cetera, but what of words like "tranny" or even "gay"?

Simple, the obvious ones are fully banned and the not obvious ones you check the intent

What's the point and who decides what the obvious ones are?
"Tranny", "cunt", and "retard", for example. Are these slurs? I say they aren't, but I'd bet you that you can find someone who would reply to this question with "obviously".

A few slur threads ago (never thought I'd say that) it was covered that tranny is a pretty directed slur that offends people.

There are acceptable ways to refer to people that aren't offensive. Gay is a widely accepted way to refer to homosexuals. Faggot is not. Same way trans is for transgender/transexual. Tranny is not.

Maybe I'm just too lowbrow to wrap my head around some of the arguments being perpetuated for keeping the use of slurs. Maybe it just comes from the wording of rule 11 demanding more specificity, etc.

[ekaterina]

I really don't understand the holdout here. What is the frequency in which you use slurs to which this is shattering your RP. If it's not directly affecting you, why are you trying to prevent it from being ushered out for the players who are genuinely bothered by it?

It wouldn't hinder my experience. That's not what this is about.
It's a matter of principle. Your feelings shouldn't get to dictate what I can and can't say.

[Chadley]

I really don't understand the holdout here. What is the frequency in which you use slurs to which this is shattering your RP. If it's not directly affecting you, why are you trying to prevent it from being ushered out for the players who are genuinely bothered by it?

It wouldn't hinder my experience. That's not what this is about.
It's a matter of principle. Your feelings shouldn't get to dictate what I can and can't say.

You wouldn't be willing to compromise over principle? Interesting take, although I admire the confidence in which you made it.

[TheRex9001]

I am more of a ”keep everyone happy” kind of guy, I just want as many people as possible to play and enjoy this game and I feel like stubbornly defending saying the n Word IC prevents that.

[BeeSting12]

What's the point and who decides what the obvious ones are?
"Tranny", "cunt", and "retard", for example. Are these slurs? I say they aren't, but I'd bet you that you can find someone who would reply to this question with "obviously".

I think it's pretty obvious that tranny is a slur, but I believe cunt and retard are perfectly valid insults that don't have to be used as slurs. Cunt is a synonym for vagina. We call people dicks/assholes/pussies all the time so I don't see why that one synonym for genitalia is more offensive than the rest. Retard is in a similar boat. Idiot, dunce, moron, etc are all words we use to describe stupid people and are generally considered perfectly okay insults. They have been used as medical descriptors of mentally disabled people in the past. I don't see how retard is any different.

edit - made it obvious to whom i was replying to

[Armhulen]

I am more of a ”keep everyone happy” kind of guy, I just want as many people as possible to play and enjoy this game and I feel like stubbornly defending saying the n Word IC prevents that.

Really speaks my philosophy from the heart

[BlueMemesauce]

[words and images]

Calling a person a nigger because that person is black is bigotry. Calling a person a nigger ignoring the person's race is not bigotry.

It doesn't matter their skin color, what matters is the intention.

Using the n-word to hurt someone is bigotry. Even if they aren't black, using the n-word as an insult toward them is bigotry. You're implying that being black is a bad thing, so you're still being racist in general.

Calling someone the n-word because they are black is not always bigotry. Black people do it all the time, and other people can too. You just have to be careful because it's easy for the meaning of the word to be misinterpreted.

[kinnebian]

i always have trouble understanding why people are so adamant to defend the n word
why are you so desperate to use it?

[Thranos]

Simply reply to every MSO post with the longest possible list of slurs you can come up with
If he bans you for it, he's a hypocrite and clearly doesn't like seeing slurs, AND you no longer have to deal with him
if he doesn't, he has to see it every time he posts

[Turbonerd]

Simply reply to every MSO post with the longest possible list of slurs you can come up with
If he bans you for it, he's a hypocrite and clearly doesn't like seeing slurs, AND you no longer have to deal with him
if he doesn't, he has to see it every time he posts

You'd just get banned for spam and being a retard.

[Misdoubtful]

Just don't be racist hello???

[Chadley]

Just don't be racist hello???

That seems to be the conclusion.

The fight is about what constitutes racism.

[kinnebian]

if something you want to say requires you to make a essay argument on why its not actually racist wouldnt we all be better off if you just didnt say it

[Pandarsenic]

MSO has terrible takes about what is and isn't racism

Sorry your ability to be racist towards white people was gimped by my egalitarianism, but that doesn't make it a terrible take.

If losing cracker as an insult is the cost of making all the rest of the usual slurs permabannable at all times, I'll take it. I know personally at least a few people who had been on tg before I knew them and have said that they don't plan to come back because of our (in their perception) unwillingness to actually address the prevalence of slurs. It's frankly embarrassing that GoonStation, even if you think their bigotry rule goes too far, nonetheless clearly does a better of a job than us at ensuring basic avoidance of The Same Old Bullshit for minorities.

[Capsandi]

mso is being reasonable methinks

I also think this is a 1:1 rehash of the last thread which is poor form on OP's part.

[Ziiro]

tg don't say slurs for 24 hours challenge (impossible)

[BrolyButterfingers]

I really miss the period of Manuel where someone would say a slur just to get murdered and chucked out an airlock for it

Genuinely based

I've been doing that, I RRed an AI last week for it and the same sec officer like 3-4 times in the last two weeks

[BrolyButterfingers]

Oh yeah I did it for speciesism, and I'm gonna keep doing it lmao

[dirk_mcblade]

mso is being reasonable methinks

I also think this is a 1:1 rehash of the last thread which is poor form on OP's part.

You're welcome to a full refund if you don't like my posts

[Timberpoes]

Tgstation is a bit of safe space for bigots, in my opinion.

Our rules don't actually say you can't be a bigot, you simply can't express bigotry. You can be as bigoted as you like as long as you don't express it.

Which is convenient for bigots because our definition of what is and isn't expressing bigotry is also honestly pretty accommodating and welcoming to actual bigots.

Because we protect using the language of bigots.

And MSO uses the language of bigots. He uses the words that bigots use. Then protects the use of those words, protections that genuine bigots can hide behind.

Three of the most bigot protecting takes that I've seen from MSO:
Tranny is just a -y shortening.
It's okay to say nigger.
"What are you [faggots/niggers/trannys/etc] playing?" is a fine sentence.

We have genuinely bigoted people using genuinely bigoted language knowing the host has their back and will protect them. Just so we can allow non-bigots to LARP as bigots by appropriating their language.

Fucking clown show. We're not at the circus, we are the circus.

And Arm, you're partially wrong about us being about SS13. We're also somewhat a vehicle for MSO to project and implement some of his own political beliefs on a community-wide scale.

We're not that distanced from being the joke server where all the trash human beings play.

Not a million miles away from being the place where "speak friend and enter" isn't the Elvish for friend. It's the English for nigger or tranny to prove you're made of the right caliber of stuff to fight against political correctness gone wrong. That you can promote MSO's safe space for using bigoted words in the "right" way.

I'd like us to not even exist in the same multiverse where that is a possibility.

The casual and protected use of bigoted slurs is one of the only times the headmin role feels like a vanity role. For every step of progress made ejecting genuine bigots from our community, MSO rolls us back 5 decades with political views that even the fucking dinosaurs thought were quaint and antiquated.

Fashion trends follow a timeless circle, as do political views it seems. For all the progress made, people find comfort in counter culture. And the antithesis to political correctness has significant overlap with bigots on the Venn diagram of life.

I think that's all food for thought. I'd hate for our host to become a useful idiot in the fight for people's rights to be bigots in general, which is a very regressive path to tread. Or to be a load-bearing idiot we feel like we need to work around to prevent and eject bigotry from our community in whatever form it may take.

It's through the hard work of decades of headmins, admins and players advocating for a better community to participate in that we're still going strong, in my view anyway.

[Timberpoes]

Also don't mistake me for wanting to slap people for thought crimes.

My issue isn't that we allow bigots to exist in the community. Every community has them.

My issue is that we allow them to exist and protect their language. Which means we are not only a place for bigots to exist, but also for bigots to use The Word of Bigot and be protected.

A place where bigots can LARP as non-bigots who are LARPing as bigots.

[MrStonedOne]

Ya, uh, most people who use slurs do so for shock/troll value, and calling them bigots is the exact kind of shit i don't like.

That accusation is serious enough to me that i think it must have zero false positives.

This is why we used to eject them under rule 1 if they couldn't stop trolling for reactions when we told them to stop. it was less fraught with false positives around a serious accusation that kinda requires intent to just focus on the dickish part of trying to get reactions by shouting reaction causing things into the air.

But this isn't good enough for timber, as it requires giving people the chance to fall in line, you can't bully them for having a character flaw, or turn it into an incurable semi-blacklist that lets you feel better about yourself by looking down on other people for not having the same social views as you. Treating people who are so immature they find humor in the reaction saying slurs gets them as the same as Ron DeSantis is the only acceptable solution to timber.

And he wonders why i blocked him on discord. Maybe it has something to do with his consistent need to miss the point and strawman or pigeon hole people's arguments or intentions like i just did to him in this post.

[NoxVS]

Ya, uh, most people who use slurs do so for shock/troll value, and calling them bigots is the exact kind of shit i don't like.

Why can't we just get rid of those people and accidentally get rid of the bigots at the same time as a nice little unintended benefit

Say what you will about Timber talking about you protecting bigots, you have nothing to defend yourself against the accusation that you are defending the edgelords whose sense of humor peaked in middle school. There's the n-word swapped with an l, which you have gone out of your way to defend the use of - Most people saying it are just using it because "aha look how clever i am i said the n-word but not actually im so subtle and original", and the quality of the server would rise if they were told to either bring their standard for humor up to at least a high school level or face being punted into the sun.

[dirk_mcblade]

The casual and protected use of bigoted slurs is one of the only times the headmin role feels like a vanity role.

Headmin is absolutely a vanity role. It's an unpaid rotating position.
There's nothing wrong with that, people can do what they want with their leisure time and if it makes you happy then go forth, we all need to do something with our time. But you're a volunteer policy administrator. I don't know the specifics of this particular server but it sounds to me like you don't own the hardware, your name isn't on the bills paid, your role is to distribute the administrative overhead to keep the server from being unusable, and there's other people competing with you for that role each election. Tgstation is ultimately a collaborative effort between many different parties, but there's only one role where if the person gets a heart attack the server eventually goes dark, and that's the person with possession of the hardware. But also consider that at the end of the day even that role only affects a few hundred peak users.

[Pandarsenic]

Ya, uh, most people who use slurs do so for shock/troll value, and calling them bigots is the exact kind of shit i don't like.

Genuinely: Even if we assume that they aren't bigots, they just happen to enjoy acting exactly like a bigot would to make people uncomfortable, why do we want these people around? Is this the quality of community member we want to attract, endorse, and protect? What do we gain from having them here? If we have to choose between them, and the more normal and well-adjusted people they scare off, why choose them?

[MrStonedOne]

That accusation is serious enough to me that i think it must have zero false positives.

[MrStonedOne]

and the more normal and well-adjusted people they scare off, why choose them?

1: Because this is the normal and well adjusted person you defend:

There's the n-word swapped with an l, which you have gone out of your way to defend the use of - Most people saying it are just using it because "aha look how clever i am i said the n-word but not actually im so subtle and original", and the quality of the server would rise if they were told to either bring their standard for humor up to at least a high school level or face being punted into the sun.

2: This is an autism simulator first and foremost, I do not plan to ever have our autism simulator cater to normies.

I have spent my entire life sitting in the 10 to 30% watching one by one as everything pushed me to side to chase after the same 60% of "normies" and mass appeal and i do not want to see /tg/station go down that road.

There are a billion other things on the internet chasing after and catering to normies and normies who demand they must be catered to can go and fucking hang out in those billion other things.

/tg/station is not for normies.

[MrStonedOne]

Like, every time i see somebody argue about ligger that "Most people saying it are just using it because "aha look how clever i am i said the n-word but not actually im so subtle and original"" i start to regret making rule 11, because it keeps seeming like the types of people who were scared off by edge lords might not be such a good presence in the community.

[Ziiro]

Timberpoes is, as always, correct in his assessment.

People hiding behind "Well I'm not being an ACTUAL [racist/sexist/homophobe], I just like to make offensive jokes because I think they're funny!" is a timeless shield of actual bigots to obfuscate and rally people to their banner. This is straight out of the /pol/ playbook.

I see no difference in tossing any number of these people in the trash alongside what you might consider "actual bigots". If they're not tried and true, they can grow and change from it. They can apologize, improve, and return. Or they'll double down and become worse, proving the assessment correct.

[MrStonedOne]

Like look at this person pandar:

Timberpoes is, as always, correct in his assessment.

People hiding behind "Well I'm not being an ACTUAL [racist/sexist/homophobe], I just like to make offensive jokes because I think they're funny!" is a timeless shield of actual bigots to obfuscate and rally people to their banner. This is straight out of the /pol/ playbook.

I see no difference in tossing any number of these people in the trash alongside what you might consider "actual bigots". If they're not tried and true, they can grow and change from it. They can apologize, improve, and return. Or they'll double down and become worse, proving the assessment correct.

This is who you defend.

"we should just blindly call people a serious accusation because if we are wrong they will just learn to watch what they say more"
and
"telling jokes is a conspiracy by /pol/ to recruit bigots"

Fucking normal and well adjusted? lol

If you think this kind of shit is healthy go google some graphs on the rise of social anxiety and maybe sit these convos out.