In this thread we come up with ways to end racism

[dirk_mcblade]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I can't think of a better way to get back at a racist from something like two years ago than to break forum rules.

[MrStonedOne]

Like look at this person pandar:

Timberpoes is, as always, correct in his assessment.

People hiding behind "Well I'm not being an ACTUAL [racist/sexist/homophobe], I just like to make offensive jokes because I think they're funny!" is a timeless shield of actual bigots to obfuscate and rally people to their banner. This is straight out of the /pol/ playbook.

I see no difference in tossing any number of these people in the trash alongside what you might consider "actual bigots". If they're not tried and true, they can grow and change from it. They can apologize, improve, and return. Or they'll double down and become worse, proving the assessment correct.

This is who you defend.

"we should just blindly call people a serious accusation because if we are wrong they will just learn to watch what they say more"
and
"telling jokes is a conspiracy by /pol/ to recruit bigots"

Fucking normal and well adjusted? lol

If you think this kind of shit is healthy go google some graphs on the rise of social anxiety and maybe sit these convos out.

[TheRex9001]

In my opinion we dont need to become ”woke” or ”normie” in order to ban slurs, just issue a blanket startment ”no racial slurs” and I am sure people would be fine with it. I am fine with having discussions about it but I see no reason to say a racial slur in IC chat or saying it randomly in ooc. We can discuss and argue about it on the forums and in ooc chat but we dont have to say it IC

[MrStonedOne]

In my opinion we dont need to become ”woke” or ”normie” in order to ban slurs, just issue a blanket startment ”no racial slurs” and I am sure people would be fine with it. I am fine with having discussions about it but I see no reason to say a racial slur in IC chat or saying it randomly in ooc. We can discuss and argue about it on the forums and in ooc chat but we dont have to say it IC

racial slurs are already banned from ic say for the same reason amogus spam is banned from ic say: no ooc in ic.

people just want that to apply to ligger and also they want to be able to give more than 15 minutes for first offense.

[Ziiro]

"we should just blindly call people a serious accusation because if we are wrong they will just learn to watch what they say more"

just don't say slurs, it isn't that hard

"telling jokes is a conspiracy by /pol/ to recruit bigots"

Not just jokes, "Jokes" akin to dropping FBI crime statistics but saying it's about lizards. Playing a character named "Tyrone Biggums" that suspiciously uses a lot of stereotyped and prejudiced behavior. Making a bot that spams slurs. Coming up with nicknames for groups of people you don't like that are a permutation from actual slurs.

Fucking normal and well adjusted? lol

If you think this kind of shit is healthy go google some graphs on the rise of social anxiety and maybe sit these convos out.

Are you saying the rise of social anxiety has its roots in people not wanting to communicate because they may be miscast as a racist/sexist?

[dirk_mcblade]

Are you saying the rise of social anxiety has its roots in people not wanting to communicate because they may be miscast as a racist/sexist?

No it's obviously due to the increase in microplastics within our environment but this is something big plastic doesn't want people to start acknowledging as problems to begin with.

[MrStonedOne]

"we should just blindly call people a serious accusation because if we are wrong they will just learn to watch what they say more"

just don't say slurs, it isn't that hard

Calling somebody a serious accusation as bigot or racist or sexist

MUST
HAVE
ZERO
FALSE
POSITIVES.

"telling jokes is a conspiracy by /pol/ to recruit bigots"

Not just jokes, "Jokes" akin to dropping FBI crime statistics but saying it's about lizards. Playing a character named "Tyrone Biggums" that suspiciously uses a lot of stereotyped and prejudiced behavior. Making a bot that spams slurs. Coming up with nicknames for groups of people you don't like that are a permutation from actual slurs.

what you mean like "Despite making up 13% of the station's crew, lizards account for 50%..." haha i love it. please tell me that's something you've seen before.

Making a bot that spams slurs. - 1, not inherently bigoted, 2, not a joke, so i don't see how its related, 3, trolling for reactions has previously been banable under rule 1, i don't understand why you can't accept that as good enough.

"Tyrone Biggums" - this is the only example you gave that seems like masked bigotry. and also the exact thing rule 11 was suppose to ban.

"the ligger word" - yes, this is not bigotry, it is not motivated by bigotry, it will never be motivated by bigotry, and every time you try to argue it is you lose all of my respect.

Fucking normal and well adjusted? lol

If you think this kind of shit is healthy go google some graphs on the rise of social anxiety and maybe sit these convos out.

Are you saying the rise of social anxiety has its roots in people not wanting to communicate because they may be miscast as a racist/sexist?

yes. for instance:

I am a pasty white straight cis gendered autistic dude.

Role models i adore in order of respect i hold for them:

Terry crews - Overall an awesome persona, Male victim of sexual assault and harassment by hollywood producers, absolutely have respect for his courage in speaking out knowing how little socity gives a fuck about male victims of sexual assault, got cancelled off the expendables for doing so.
Nick offerman - Positive Masculinity role model without making it about how they treat women or about how they don't do manly things.
Snoop Dogg - weed lol. (but just an overall chill persona)
Honorable token female mention: Whoopi goldberg - loved her in startrek, standing up for male victims of domestic violence on the view while her co-hosts were laughing at one.

I would have absolutely laughed out loud at the lizard crime statistics example in your post.

If i had thought of it, i would have absolutely wanted to say it to make other people laugh as I did.

I hate that i would also have this nagging voice in the back of my head, saying not to because some people would try to use it as an excuse to paint me as a bigot.

[dirk_mcblade]

Also Tyrone Biggums is a character created by Dave Chappelle. Probably falls under the rule of not playing already existing characters so that name could likely be compelled to change regardless, but to call the character itself bigoted is kind of going down the rabbit hole of whether you think Dave Chapelle is a black on black bigot or not. He's polarizing enough that you could try to pillory him and gain support from xx% of people listening to you. That character is the product of a bygone era where people apparently had enough confidence to joke about the stereotypes they encountered rather than feel dominated by them.

[iwishforducks]

talsk like a duck, walks like a duck… bigotry is not some cartoonish villain that has lines in the sand drawn. nobody is immune to propaganda. nobody is immune to bias. welcome to being human

[MrStonedOne]

talsk like a duck, walks like a duck… bigotry is not some cartoonish villain that has lines in the sand drawn. nobody is immune to propaganda. nobody is immune to bias. welcome to being human

Calling somebody a serious accusation as bigot or racist or sexist

MUST
HAVE
ZERO
FALSE
POSITIVES.

[Ziiro]

"the ligger word" - yes, this is not bigotry, it is not motivated by bigotry, it will never be motivated by bigotry, and every time you try to argue it is you lose all of my respect.

Funny enough, I was not actually referring to ligger here! I was actually referring to "Jannies", which originated on 4chan boards for their hatred of both board janitors and trans people.

Calling somebody a serious accusation as bigot or racist or sexist

MUST
HAVE
ZERO
FALSE
POSITIVES.

I hate that i would also have this nagging voice in the back of my head, saying not to because some people would try to use it as an excuse to paint me as a bigot.

Because you are being a useful idiot. This is what happened with 4chan boards over the course of the last decade. You're calling me a conspiracy theorist and whatever, sure. I don't care: but you need to understand that there is a concerted effort here to keep things normalized when it's something we need to be moving away from.

So when you say something like this:

what you mean like "Despite making up 13% of the station's crew, lizards account for 50%..." haha i love it. please tell me that's something you've seen before.
...
If i had thought of it, i would have absolutely wanted to say it to make other people laugh as I did.

(it's something I've seen on coms a few times, yes)
There's people giving each other a wink and a nod and pointing to it because everyone else knows what you're actually talking about.

Also Tyrone Biggums is a character created by Dave Chappelle. Probably falls under the rule of not playing already existing characters so that name could likely be compelled to change regardless, but to call the character itself bigoted is kind of going down the rabbit hole of whether you think Dave Chapelle is a black on black bigot or not. He's polarizing enough that you could try to pillory him and gain support from xx% of people listening to you. That certainly is the product of a bygone era where people apparently had enough confidence to joke about the stereotypes they encountered rather than feel dominated by them.

The guy did get rule 11'd, but there was debate about it.
Re: "Is Dave Chapelle a black on black bigot?" is a discourse I'm not going to touch, but I can tell you he's a transphobic piece of shit NIMBY, lmao.

[MrStonedOne]

Re: "Is Dave Chapelle a black on black bigot?" is a discourse I'm not going to touch, but I can tell you he's a transphobic piece of shit NIMBY, lmao.

Dave chappelle is not transphobic and this is 100% a hill i will die on.

He is 100% a nimby thou.

[dirk_mcblade]

I'm trying to suss out who is actually being concerned about bigotry versus who is just upset about being called the lizard gamer word.
Which one of you is autistic enough to attend a blm rally or something and say afterwards to a friend you made there, "I'm doing my part to end bigotry. One time while playing on a 2d game server frequented by DOZENS of people, my lizard OC Hides-the-Shinies got called a ligger and that was NOT OKAY so I got the word banned from that server to make you feel comfortable if you download byond, an app from 2003, and join my server one day"

[dirk_mcblade]

The guy did get rule 11'd, but there was debate about it.
Re: "Is Dave Chapelle a black on black bigot?" is a discourse I'm not going to touch, but I can tell you he's a transphobic piece of shit NIMBY, lmao.

I like that ban a lot actually. Haha.

[MrStonedOne]

I love when people point to their skin color as a shield like that means something.

"ok, assuming you are black: get the fuck out of here with that uncle tom ass shit."

[MrStonedOne]

"the ligger word" - yes, this is not bigotry, it is not motivated by bigotry, it will never be motivated by bigotry, and every time you try to argue it is you lose all of my respect.

Funny enough, I was not actually referring to ligger here! I was actually referring to "Jannies", which originated on 4chan boards for their hatred of both board janitors and trans people.

This is "history" and "connotations" speech considerations incarnate.

Jannies is apparently a transphobic "joke" used to mask bigotry.

This settles it in my mind. the types of people who stayed away because of the slurs are the types of people that shouldn't be allowed on the internet at all. let alone /tg/station.

Fucking deranged. blocked.

[Pandarsenic]

H'okay, so this is going to be a long post, and I got distracted in the middle, so please try to bear with me and, uh, if I trail off a thought in the middle of it, just let me know and I'll try to go finish it.

Calling somebody a serious accusation as bigot or racist or sexist

MUST
HAVE
ZERO
FALSE
POSITIVES.

So what I'm getting at here is - what if we just ask, regardless of whether they're a bigot, whether they're enjoyable to be around? Do they contribute to a fun atmosphere? Do people enjoy their presence?

Like, every time i see somebody argue about ligger that "Most people saying it are just using it because "aha look how clever i am i said the n-word but not actually im so subtle and original"" i start to regret making rule 11, because it keeps seeming like the types of people who were scared off by edge lords might not be such a good presence in the community.

Whether the lizard gamer word was ever funny is a matter of debate, but I'm honestly pretty strongly of the opinion that even if it was, it hasn't been for years. It's tired, low-effort stuff. There's nothing clever or interesting or original about it. It doesn't work as a joke because the only possible punchline to it is "It's like the n word." What exactly does it add, as opposed to insults that don't have RL baggage attached?

Maybe they hate black people, maybe they don't, but I don't habitually enjoy being around people where I have to ask the question at all.

I know personally at least a few people who had been on tg before I knew them and have said that they don't plan to come back because of our (in their perception) unwillingness to actually address the prevalence of slurs.

i can think of at least 5-6 good friends i have outside /tg/, several of whom are active players on downstreams and at least one of which is/was a very active and talented coder who contributed a lot to one of them, and im pretty sure if i tried to get them to try out /tg/ they would very easily be able to use threads like this and mso's commentary as a good reason not to touch it, and i wouldnt have a very good argument against their judgement

We are losing people who are never going to get enough hours on tg to participate in Players' Club culture wars because they simply cannot be fucked to put up with an atmosphere they find distasteful (and especially god help them if they're European and want LRP but don't want Sybil ping). There are people going "Oh, this is one of those places" when they see we have examples of how to use slurs within the confines of the rules built into said rules, and they just pass on it. I know I would have if I didn't already have such deep roots within /tg/station13 itself.

Beyond that, I'm inclined to agree with Timber, Rave's traditional position, etc., that fundamentally, saying that slurs are fine to use in certain conditions attracts people who have strong feelings that they want to be able to say slurs, and I'm not shy about saying that I think those people are usually not just unpleasant to play with but often unpleasant to share OOC spaces with. This comes back to that part above about an unpleasant atmosphere. They may enjoy getting a rise out of people, they may be aggressive personalities, they may be NRP shitters, they may have other faults unrelated, but generally I find that people who care a lot about being allowed to say slurs are both personally unpleasant and bring out the worst in people around them.

tl;dr

- Explicitly allowing slurs in some conditions attracts people who really want to say slurs and can't on other servers.
- These people are not generally fun to be around.

I struggle to think of anyone who has ever said slurs in-game regularly who is a significant and consistent positive influence on the server and/or forums, but if you can think of someone, I'm open to hearing.

[TheLoLSwat]

One time while playing on a 2d game server frequented by DOZENS of people, my lizard OC Hides-the-Shinies got called a ligger and that was NOT OKAY so I got the word banned

I mean... there is another way to respond if someone calls you the hard r in your 2003 byond game

[dirk_mcblade]

Actually from that ban I'm going to pick out this excerpt from the appellate which kind of troubles me: "I will also change the skintone (its still gonna be dark just not unrealistically dark where it's completely black and stereotypical) so that this doesn't happen again as well."
I can get behind bans for being racist caricatures and I don't know maybe he was saying some stupid shit during that round.
I also understand the ban of TV show characters (and ultimately that seems to be the rule that stuck).
Are we at a place where we're effectively banning really dark skinned characters from the game in the name of ending bigotry? Are we going to assume a player from Sudan would be fucking with other people if they created a character who looked Sudanese? Actually I want to know what the character looked like that he was apparently judged "too black" in appearance.

[Pandarsenic]

Funny enough, I was not actually referring to ligger here! I was actually referring to "Jannies", which originated on 4chan boards for their hatred of both board janitors and trans people.

(I'm pretty sure "Jannies" comes from SomethingAwful and is unrelated to trans slurs based on being Old and having been online since the, like, dark ages, but if you don't believe me I can check in with an old school Goon I know. I'm pretty sure 4chons got it from SA later though.)

[MrStonedOne]

Funny enough, I was not actually referring to ligger here! I was actually referring to "Jannies", which originated on 4chan boards for their hatred of both board janitors and trans people.

(I'm pretty sure "Jannies" comes from SomethingAwful and is unrelated to trans slurs based on being Old and having been online since the, like, dark ages, but if you don't believe me I can check in with an old school Goon I know. I'm pretty sure 4chons got it from SA later though.)

Why does it matter?

Like seriously.

Why are you engaging with a premise built on binding all uses of a word based on how so few used it or based on its originations. none of that binds the context the word can be used in.

"Never engage with the premise of assholes" - by engaging with it you are giving the argument legitimacy.

[dirk_mcblade]

Funny enough, I was not actually referring to ligger here! I was actually referring to "Jannies", which originated on 4chan boards for their hatred of both board janitors and trans people.

(I'm pretty sure "Jannies" comes from SomethingAwful and is unrelated to trans slurs based on being Old and having been online since the, like, dark ages, but if you don't believe me I can check in with an old school Goon I know. I'm pretty sure 4chons got it from SA later though.)

He's possibly referring to the fact, now I'm writing this out for academic purposes because I am a woman respecter™, trannies and jannies both end in -annies.
There's a similar vein of thought amongst some perhaps miniscule portions of the population in Asia that countries' nationals ending with -ese (such as Chinese, Vietnamese, and Japanese) are similarly banded together as inferior lesser thans in the eye of the Anglo in charge of English grammar due to this system of suffixes.

[Ziiro]

Why does it matter?

Like seriously.

Why are you engaging with a premise built on binding all uses of a word based on how so few used it or based on its originations. none of that binds the context the word can be used in.

Unfortunately we live in a society where language is contextual [both historical and contemporary] and constantly evolving. Communication density has layers of not only the information being conveyed, but how you're conveying it and who you're saying it to.

If you're living in constant fear and anxiety that your word choice and terminology may have people misunderstand you as being a bigot, maybe examine that. Or accept that, and retreat further into communities where you are surrounded by people who also use the same word choice/terminology.

Which I understand is what you are attempting to cultivate here on your personal corner of the internet and keep it normie-free. More power to you, just understand where it comes from when people say "tg? Isn't that the one full of racists?"

Funny enough, I was not actually referring to ligger here! I was actually referring to "Jannies", which originated on 4chan boards for their hatred of both board janitors and trans people.

(I'm pretty sure "Jannies" comes from SomethingAwful and is unrelated to trans slurs based on being Old and having been online since the, like, dark ages, but if you don't believe me I can check in with an old school Goon I know. I'm pretty sure 4chons got it from SA later though.)

He's possibly referring to the fact, now I'm writing this out for academic purposes because I am a woman respecter™, trannies and jannies both end in -annies.
There's a similar vein of thought amongst some perhaps miniscule portions of the population in Asia that countries' nationals ending with -ese (such as Chinese, Vietnamese, and Japanese) are similarly banded together as inferior lesser thans in the eye of the Anglo in charge of English grammar due to this system of suffixes.

I'm fairly certain SA had moderators, not janitors, and the parlance comes from 4chan's specific janitors - a role separate from moderators (Janitors could only delete posts, and moderators could actually ban people.)

[dirk_mcblade]

Which I understand is what you are attempting to cultivate here on your personal corner of the internet and keep it normie-free. More power to you, just understand where it comes from when people say "tg? Isn't that the one full of racists?"

I'm fairly certain SA had moderators, not janitors, and the parlance comes from 4chan's specific janitors - a role separate from moderators (Janitors could only delete posts, and moderators could actually ban people.)

1st paragraph. Tg competes with skyrat and shit like vore servers. It will not ever not seem comparatively normal unless for example captain gets renamed to lizard killing grand wizard or something stupid like that. I sincerely think for most people even discussing SS13 in general would make your captive audience uncomfortable just by teaching them about this autistic activity moreso than mentioning some servers have some people change one letter of racial slurs without getting instabanned. It's the internet, I think most people are aware in any non corporate environment people get nasty towards each other, and tgstation already bans real life bigotry but not the furry transmutation of it. I've been pretty vocal about this recently but I'd rather MSO deal with this issue by banning otherkin outright rather than have people police their words in dealing with a bunch of furries they don't necessarily feel comfortable interacting with. Now no one can get called ligger because there are no lizards, and real life bigotry is also banned. Great, server utopia achieved. Or you can grow up and deal with the fact that some people don't like your nonhuman OC and stop piggybacking off the real world discrimination minorities deal with, and realize this is ICly acceptable because in the game lore nanotrasen is human supremacist. Silicons aren't even required to save you, but you're concerned about whether another character calls you a mean word similar to a slur used hundreds of years ago in the game's history?

2nd paragraph. Alright that doesn't explain how the term jannie by itself is also against transgender persons. I was trying to brainstorm that they rhyme but that apparently isn't what you're basing it off of?

[iwishforducks]

I would have absolutely laughed out loud at the lizard crime statistics example in your post.

If i had thought of it, i would have absolutely wanted to say it to make other people laugh as I did.

sheesh dude

[MrStonedOne]

Alright that doesn't explain how the term jannie by itself is also against transgender persons. I was trying to brainstorm that they rhyme but that apparently isn't what you're basing it off of?

they said at the top of this page:

Not just jokes, "Jokes" akin to [...] Coming up with nicknames for groups of people you don't like that are a permutation from actual slurs.

its trannie but with the first two letters swapped out with 1 letter, that makes it a slur in their book. also the fact that somebody on 4chan once said it, and some people on 4chan hate trannies, thus any usage of the word jannie is just masked usage of the word trannie.

It's the same argument as being against ligger, only their version makes even less sense.

grannie is gonna be so sad she's transphobic now.

gonna have to fire my nannie

can somebody explain to me why we still allow the use of the word trigger? Does using slurs with a letter or two swapped out make you feel bigger? cause it makes me think you might be a maggot or a hick.

(all words used by 4chan so i guess the logic checks out)
((Solder from tf2 is cancelled))
(((My mom told me if I include a 3rd aside people will call me anti-semite)))
((((I think they think where it was first used is what matters, but if that was case faggot was first used as a word for a bundle of sticks so i don't think they'll actually be able to defend that stance))))

[dirk_mcblade]

"Great news, friend. I don't know what your skin color is but to make you more comfortable I just made it so calling a lizardman the term ligger gets the offender banned from my server"
"Licker?"
"No, ligger."
"Ligger?"
"Yes, ligger. You see it's one letter removed from the n word and that isn't okay"
"... And this is directed towards lizard people?"
"Yes. Lizard people."
"And you think I'm a lizard person?"
"No I don't mean you're a lizard person"
"Then what do you mean?"
"I mean you should empathize with a lizard person being called ligger"
"But I don't like lizard people. I don't even like lizards"
"Wait no I mean you shouldn't feel uncomfortable when people are being mean to a lizard person because some of them use the term ligger"
"So you're saying I should feel uncomfortable when people say ligger?"
"No I'm saying you could"
"I could?"
"Yes, because someone who actually hates black people in real life, when they encounter a lizard person could use the term ligger to insult them, but by doing so they're really pretending the lizard person is you, if you are black"
"So you're comparing me to a lizard person?"
"No I'm saying the person calling a lizard person this word might be pretending the lizard person could be you depending on what your skin color is."
"Wow. Well thank you for saving me from being reminded that a racial slur exists and is sometimes used against me in real life. I certainly was not aware of this word or its usage until I started using the internet. And now I know that people are pretending lizard men are me, online"
And at this point he begins edging away from continuing this discussion regarding lizard people and really just wants to get the fuck away, hopefully before he starts learning about how the rival servers have furries doing ERP and vore.
Like what are you doing trying to tie the black experience to a lizard man in a niche game?
I don't even use this term in game, but I'm thinking maybe lizards were a mistake.

[Dax Dupont]

It's really from the gbp area where it's a sort of child speak, related to the whole tendies memes, it's just janitor in that child speak and it's deluded to think this has anything to do with trans people.
Ultraleft and ultraright like to victimize themselves, using different methods and justifications. It's the horseshoe theory of cringe.

The damage American politics has done to the internet by polarizing people to the extremes is sadly permanent it seems.

[nianjiilical]

This is an autism simulator first and foremost, I do not plan to ever have our autism simulator cater to normies.

I have spent my entire life sitting in the 10 to 30% watching one by one as everything pushed me to side to chase after the same 60% of "normies" and mass appeal and i do not want to see /tg/station go down that road.

There are a billion other things on the internet chasing after and catering to normies and normies who demand they must be catered to can go and fucking hang out in those billion other things.

/tg/station is not for normies.

that fact that showing a basic level of decency and understanding to not use incredibly charged language (i dont even mean stuff like jannie i just mean stuff like nigger and tranny) is being called "normie behavior", and the inference here that tgstation shouldnt be "catering to" people who just dont want to be called hateful slurs when they could be called any number of equally distasteful but not racially charged/transphobic adjectives, is...kind of a huge red flag to me???

why is just being a little nicer to each other while still maintaining our atmosphere of adult-swim-esque 18+ r-rated space catastrophe simulator such a difficult middle ground to hit?

yes. for instance:

I am a pasty white straight cis gendered autistic dude.

I hate that i would also have this nagging voice in the back of my head, saying not to because some people would try to use it as an excuse to paint me as a bigot.

as someone who is also a pasty white cis autistic dude with severe anxiety: i feel this. i absolutely 100% get where you're coming from, and getting stuck in that mindset of constantly feeling like you need to walk on eggshells or else The Internet(tm) will cancel you and people will treat you as an awful person sucks incredible amounts of ass, and i sincerely hope you manage to overcome that because its a fucking awful way to have to live, speaking from experience

but as someone who has done the exact same thing in the past, i dont think lashing out and going "fuck the normies, fuck the overly sensitive people, we're going to be allowed to yell slurs because otherwise we'll be sanitized" is going to lead to anything other than a self-fulfilling prophecy wherein tgstation ends up reinforcing its status as a place where, as timber said, we inadvertently have enough shielding for bigots that they can become parts of the community with the admin team feeling like they have no recourse on removing them

Because you are being a useful idiot. This is what happened with 4chan boards over the course of the last decade. You're calling me a conspiracy theorist and whatever, sure. I don't care: but you need to understand that there is a concerted effort here to keep things normalized when it's something we need to be moving away from.

this is basically where im at right now. i genuinely dont think you're a hateful person, but the unfortunate reality is that when the host of a server stakes such a hard claim on allowing certain types of people to inhabit it, it sends a clear signal to our potential playerbase, and right now that signal is that we're fine with people using language that exists explicitly to seriously discriminate against minorities. that is, as of this writing, a part of tgstation identity

the uncomfortable fact of the matter is that, like you implied, no matter what you do some people on the internet are going to judge your actions. people you never met and never will talk to are going to form opinions on you, and some of those opinions are going to be negative, and that sucks and is unfair. right now, the question that pertains to this thread is whether or not you want tgstation to garner negative opinions and judgements from bigots and racists and /pol/brained people who think we're cringe normies for standing up for vulnerable people, or do you want tgstation to garner negative opinions and judgements from people who actually care about their friends and neighbors and choose not to support, endorse or play on servers that are okay with hateful language and -isms. no matter what we do, one of those two things is going to happen, so its up to you which of those you think is better for tgstation as a whole as its host

[MrStonedOne]

but as someone who has done the exact same thing in the past, i dont think lashing out and going "fuck the normies, fuck the overly sensitive people, we're going to be allowed to yell slurs because otherwise we'll be sanitized"

but I have never said that.

And as long as people like you keep trying to read such bad faith into what i say, you'll never be able to reach me and only just end up on my block list.

I have been arguing against assuming such people are bigots.

I have been arguing against using rule 11 (only 1 of many rules) to address such nonsense in certain cases.

I have been arguing that calling people who don't draw the same lines towards sensitivity as you bigots or racists with zero regard for reality just puts equality and anti-hate speech measures in a bad light for people who aren't bigoted but get wrapped up in such nonsense.

I have been arguing that using peoples distaste for such words as an excuse to ban them just leads us down a bad path. (edit: that as you can see, leads to those some people aruging that jannies is transphobic)

/tg/ has bans on record for people spamming ooc with hard-rs long before I (yes, me, not the headmins) made rule 11.

Maybe try reading and understanding.

[MrStonedOne]

right now, the question that pertains to this thread is whether or not you want tgstation to garner negative opinions and judgements from bigots and racists and /pol/brained people who think we're cringe normies for standing up for vulnerable people, or do you want tgstation to garner negative opinions and judgements from people who actually care about their friends and neighbors and choose not to support, endorse or play on servers that are okay with hateful language and -isms. no matter what we do, one of those two things is going to happen, so its up to you which of those you think is better for tgstation as a whole as its host

I would choose both of those.

Because i give zero fucks about both of those camps.

[Timberpoes]

Quoting ESPECIALLY Nox - who is a no-bullshit legend of saying stuff how it is, and person I think more of us could do to emulate on a day-to-day basis... When they are expressing strong anti-bigotry, anti-bigot and anti-expression-of-bigotry stances... As one of your examples in the context of "Lol, this is the person you're defending?" is a big oof moment.

MSO, I strongly believe those are the kinds of takes we need to promote and encourage in our community. I want to see more anti-bigots. More anti-bigoted language advocates. More people that understand the social contracts we all make in life when we join together in communities that make the place a more welcoming, more inviting and more fun area to be.

The opposite kind of person to Nox is a person that is a bigot. You further arguing your points against Pandarsenic, who is a bastion of common sense, critical thinking and a generally wholesome community member? Who is suggesting to you that perhaps community members don't want to have to do the political calculus to figure out whether the dude is a bigot, pretending to be a bigot, pretending to be a bigot to make fun of bigots, pretending to be a bigot as a mask for actually being a bigot, or looks at all the latter people and emulates their genuine or faux-genuine bigotry because that's what's supposedly acceptable here.

Outside of your bubble are people like Panda, Nox, Vekter, Nian and hundreds of other wholesome community members.

If that's a calibre of community member outside of your bubble, who exactly is inside your bubble? Precisely who is it that you are defending when you balk at people who express a complete intolerance for bigotry?

If there was ever a time for an "are we the baddies?" meme epiphany from you, now would be as good a time as any.

Our community is one that is constantly trying to evolve past both its original chan roots and I'd argue is now also trying to desperately evolve past your special blend of political eccentricities that you inject into it. It's trying to evolve into something more long-term sustainable and objectively more righteous than the current sum of its parts.

[MrStonedOne]

do you want tgstation to garner negative opinions and judgements from people who actually care about their friends and neighbors and choose not to support, endorse or play on servers that are okay with hateful language and -isms.

I don't play around with guilt by association bullshit. If they choose not be on such a place because they don't like seeing such words or conduct, fine. I can understand and even respect that, but the type who do so because they want to demand their sensibilities be universal have zero respect from me.

I don't want the hard-r spamming. I just want people to be able to make threads titled "what are you faggots playing" without getting accused of being homophobic by SJWs who drink from mugs that say "white male tears", its just the moment we went hard on banning the former, we got a fuck ton more of the latter, and I don't know what to do about that other than to say that I find the latter to be more harmful in the long term. Look at far the overton window has shifted.

[MrStonedOne]

Vekter is inside the bubble

given they are the one who made the "what are you faggots playing" thread 10 years ago.

[MrStonedOne]

I want to see more anti-bigots.

agreed

More anti-bigoted language advocates.

very fucking strongly disagree.

[TheRex9001]

I don't want the hard-r spamming. I just want people to be able to make threads titled "what are you faggots playing" without getting accused of being homophobic by SJWs who drink from mugs that say "white male tears", its just the moment we went hard on banning the former, we got a fuck ton more of the latter, and I don't know what to do about that other than to say that I find the latter to be more harmful in the long term. Look at far the overton window has shifted.

I don't know if this is something normalised in american culture but saying "Faggot" or "Nigger" in my home country (sweden for refrence) is a massive no-no and I dont think calling anyone who disagrees with your opinion SJWs is very productive, people come from different cultures, times and countries where different things are allowed socially. Have at least some respect for that without resorting to buzzwords. The overton window shifts constantly and its been like that for ages, as technological progress speeds up the window has to catch up and society is changing at a very rapid rate in response. The overton window might never stop and society might never stop changing, perhaps the n-word will be socially normal in 250 years but we wont live to find out. Cursing was not really socially acceptable 150 years ago, the shift of words is constant is my point and there is a need to argue about what to keep and what to throw out, but words that have not been socially acceptable for over 40 years might not need to return so soon.

[Archie700]

do you want tgstation to garner negative opinions and judgements from people who actually care about their friends and neighbors and choose not to support, endorse or play on servers that are okay with hateful language and -isms.

I don't play around with guilt by association bullshit. If they choose not be on such a place because they don't like seeing such words or conduct, fine. I can understand and even respect that, but the type who do so because they want to demand their sensibilities be universal have zero respect from me.

I don't want the hard-r spamming. I just want people to be able to make threads titled "what are you faggots playing" without getting accused of being homophobic by SJWs who drink from mugs that say "white male tears", its just the moment we went hard on banning the former, we got a fuck ton more of the latter, and I don't know what to do about that other than to say that I find the latter to be more harmful.

This is the unfortunate result of a culture clash between the original "4chan culture" this server was based on against...the mainstream. You have to accept that as TG becomes more "mainstream", there'll be people coming in who don't know the use of the words "faggot" or "nigger" except in a racist or insulting context.

4chan is basically the edgy kid of the internet, and our server came from that. But it's expanding with people from outside, and this culture is conflicting against a time where it was funny to replace the n in nigger with an l and use it against lizards the same way racist people use it against blacks in the real world.

Are all people who use the word "nigger" racist? Probably not. But the word itself is connected to racist implications. Same with "kike". Or "tranny" for transphobia. Or "faggot" for homophobia.

Im my opinion we should at least try to educate people on why they shouldn't use those words and note them on it on the first time, as long as they aren't either being a bad faith troll who spams it or actually unabashedly racist. We should at least give them a chance to improve on that front. I just don't think there's any culture besides 4chan culture where those words have lost their meaning and just mean "people", and TG has already lost that culture a long time ago.

[Ziiro]

I don't know if this is something normalised in american culture but saying "Faggot" or "Nigger" in my home country (sweden for refrence) is a massive no-no

It depends on what part of the country you're in and how much political/social power you wield.

[Vekter]

Vekter is inside the bubble

given they are the one who made the "what are you faggots playing" thread 10 years ago.

I am absolutely fucking not, I tried to change that thread subject back in 2020 and found out the forum won't let me. If I had control over it, I'd nuke that thread and make a new one with a different subject.

I was a different person 10 years ago than I am now and I don't appreciate you using my actions from back then to push your idea of what is and isn't acceptable. I firmly sit on the side of "These words have reprehensible contexts and shouldn't be used outside of the context of discussing them", but I also know there's literally zero chance we ever change your mind on it and I'd rather do what good I can here than quit over something I have literally no control over.

I have other opinions on the matter, but I don't feel comfortable sharing them in present company.

[Timberpoes]

Honestly MSO, a lot of the people around you have grown up over these years. They have so much more experience in life than before, more perspective on the community in general than before and different ideas on what makes tgstation an awesome place to be than they had when they were edgy teens trying to fit in.

Even in my short time here, people around me that once presented as childish, naive and foolish have grown in their own rights. I've had a great joy in seeing many of them become and then further grow as admins.

It feels like everyone around me has been growing over the past 3 years, changing views and developing new perspectives. The leap from late teens to early twenties brings about a host of new life experiences that people can draw from to grow and evolve. On the other hand, you all too often present as the Peter Pan of tgstation with takes on bigotry that are in my opinion perhaps best consigned to Never Land.

[Chadley]

I still can't wrap my head around claims like slurs have to be permitted out of principle, or to prevent people from getting punished for flippantly using slurs.

I know MSO argues that he doesn't want to co-op people 'innocently' using slurs into being racists or bigots, but it doesn't have to be labels or semantics.

It just seems like it makes people upset to see slurs thrown around in the same way they wouldn't want to see slurs thrown around in their day-to-day life. SS13 has a very loyal following, I could see how it would bother members, it definitely bothers me.

[AlamoTurtle]

This is the unfortunate result of a culture clash between the original "4chan culture" this server was based on against...the mainstream. You have to accept that as TG becomes more "mainstream", there'll be people coming in who don't know the use of the words "faggot" or "nigger" except in a racist or insulting context.

4chan is basically the edgy kid of the internet, and our server came from that. But it's expanding with people from outside, and this culture is conflicting against a time where it was funny to replace the n in nigger with an l and use it against lizards the same way racist people use it against blacks in the real world.

Are all people who use the word "nigger" racist? Probably not. But the word itself is connected to racist implications. Same with "kike". Or "tranny" for transphobia. Or "faggot" for homophobia.

Im my opinion we should at least try to educate people on why they shouldn't use those words and note them on it on the first time, as long as they aren't either being a bad faith troll who spams it or actually unabashedly racist. We should at least give them a chance to improve on that front. I just don't think there's any culture besides 4chan culture where those words have lost their meaning and just mean "people", and TG has already lost that culture a long time ago.

Yeah, pretty much everything here hits right on the mark. Some people don't grow out of being a dipshit because that's just how the internet encourages them, and it takes having a chance to know you're going to lose something to change before it happens. If it's just permabans left and right, yes, it'll be a situation of "they're just sissies who are too fragile", but giving a chance to change is decent, unless it's obvious it's a ban evader or otherwise problematic being, as Archie mentions. If they actually have some semblance of care and aren't a troll, the shock of being permabanned from a server might get them to cut their act and tuck away their bullshit until it eventually just... goes away and improves them as a person. Fake it until you make it: they might just realize that it's not funny after not doing it for a bit, but never got the chance to stop in the first place, like some addiction.

It depends on what part of the country you're in and how much political/social power you wield.

Also true, lol

[Vekter]

I still can't wrap my head around claims like slurs have to be permitted out of principle, or to prevent people from getting punished for flippantly using slurs.

I know MSO argues that he doesn't want to co-op people 'innocently' using slurs into being racists or bigots, but it doesn't have to be labels or semantics.

It just seems like it makes people upset to see slurs thrown around in the same way they wouldn't want to see slurs thrown around in their day-to-day life. SS13 has a very loyal following, I could see how it would bother members, it definitely bothers me.

I think the problem is that MSO assumes that a blanket ban on slurs would look like us outright banning people for first use of them, instead of it just being "hey, don't do that" or a mechanical system put in place to forbid their use.

I wanna say he thinks we're going to parade peoples' heads around on a pike like folks do with people accused of pedophilia and ruin their reputations when that's just... not even remotely realistic to what anyone actually wants.

[AlamoTurtle]

Vekter is inside the bubble

given they are the one who made the "what are you faggots playing" thread 10 years ago.

I am absolutely fucking not, I tried to change that thread subject back in 2020 and found out the forum won't let me. If I had control over it, I'd nuke that thread and make a new one with a different subject.

I was a different person 10 years ago than I am now and I don't appreciate you using my actions from back then to push your idea of what is and isn't acceptable. I firmly sit on the side of "These words have reprehensible contexts and shouldn't be used outside of the context of discussing them", but I also know there's literally zero chance we ever change your mind on it and I'd rather do what good I can here than quit over something I have literally no control over.

I have other opinions on the matter, but I don't feel comfortable sharing them in present company.

I wanted to mention this as well. People change a LOT in a short span of time. People are adaptable. If the situation changes, so will others. You can't hold someone's actions TEN (10) YEARS AGO as a basis for the PRESENT. Hell, less than ONE year is enough for someone to change, given the circumstances! People change. Dying on this hill because nostalgia from a decade ago isn't the way you change.

[dirk_mcblade]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around how it's an in game universe where "species-ism" is officially sanctioned but certain words are off limits. Make using derivatives of human slurs against space law and let sec officers brig people who use the L word (not okay) when they're verbally abusing the lizard people who are disposable according to Asimov and banned from leadership roles (perfectly okay). It would actually be a pretty funny corporate dystopia setting as such where you can actually be quite horrible to other people so long as you do it the right way and I guess that would help eliminate the perception that the server condones real world racism?

[Vekter]

I wanted to mention this as well. People change a LOT in a short span of time. People are adaptable. If the situation changes, so will others. You can't hold someone's actions TEN (10) YEARS AGO as a basis for the PRESENT. Hell, less than ONE year is enough for someone to change, given the circumstances! People change. Dying on this hill because nostalgia from a decade ago isn't the way you change.

To be fair, this goes both ways - there are a lot of people who will castrate someone for saying something reprehensible years ago even after they've apologized for it.

I'm just trying to wrap my head around how it's an in game universe where "species-ism" is officially sanctioned but certain words are off limits. Make using derivatives of human slurs against space law and let sec officers brig people who use the L word (not okay) when they're verbally abusing the lizard people who are disposable according to Asimov and banned from leadership roles (perfectly okay). It would actually be a pretty funny corporate dystopia setting as such where you can actually be quite horrible to other people so long as you do it the right way and I guess that would help eliminate the perception that the server condones real world racism?

I'm not really in the camp that "ligger" shouldn't be allowed, but I do get where they're coming from. I don't think anyone is saying that you can't be species-ist against lizards IC, just that you should come up with a word that isn't directly tied to an IRL slur. It's the future, get creative. Call them geckos, skinks, leather-skins, something like that.

[BeeSting12]

Vekter is inside the bubble

given they are the one who made the "what are you faggots playing" thread 10 years ago.

I am absolutely fucking not, I tried to change that thread subject back in 2020 and found out the forum won't let me. If I had control over it, I'd nuke that thread and make a new one with a different subject.

I was a different person 10 years ago than I am now and I don't appreciate you using my actions from back then to push your idea of what is and isn't acceptable. I firmly sit on the side of "These words have reprehensible contexts and shouldn't be used outside of the context of discussing them", but I also know there's literally zero chance we ever change your mind on it and I'd rather do what good I can here than quit over something I have literally no control over.

I have other opinions on the matter, but I don't feel comfortable sharing them in present company.

I wanted to mention this as well. People change a LOT in a short span of time. People are adaptable. If the situation changes, so will others. You can't hold someone's actions TEN (10) YEARS AGO as a basis for the PRESENT. Hell, less than ONE year is enough for someone to change, given the circumstances! People change. Dying on this hill because nostalgia from a decade ago isn't the way you change.

Yeah p much this. I've changed a good bit since I started playing. For a long time I used slurs for the shock factor/I thought it was funny/at that point it was just in my vocabulary. I wasn't racist or homophobic, I just didn't stop and think about the power those words had at the time. I don't believe everyone who uses these words has malicious intent. We should avoid permabanning people for it and instead use it as a growth opportunity for them.

Also considering what this server is based on it's no surprise that people think the usage of slurs is acceptable here. Oldfag, newfag, etc 4chan has like a million uses for slurs that aren't meant to be racist/homophobic.

[ekaterina]

Nooooo big bad MSO doesn't let us ban people who say the forbidden words!11!!11! muh bigots!11!

This is quite possibly the single worst take from Timberpoes that I have read, and that includes what he wrote to and about poor Gungnir.

2: This is an autism simulator first and foremost, I do not plan to ever have our autism simulator cater to normies.

Unfathomably based. When I become a robust spessman, I want to be as based as MSO.

i start to regret making rule 11, because it keeps seeming like the types of people who were scared off by edge lords might not be such a good presence in the community.

Absolutely. Under the pretence of creating a pleasant and inclusive environment, some of these people bully everyone around them into around them into "walking on eggshells" and actually create an unpleasant environment.
It is only by the grace of Technoking MSO that this has not been the fate of tgstation. Have we all forgotten this server's origins, that tgstation is literally named after a 4chan board?

Or they'll double down and become worse, proving the assessment correct.

That's not them "doubling down", it's you pushing them away. All you're doing with this attitude is creating resentment. Going out of your way to bully these people is only going to push them into even more bigoted circles - and a person who could've been just edgy can then become an actual racist. You were the real pipeline all along.

[Farquaar]

MSO is completely correct. Anyone who knows me knows I’ve never dropped a single slur in my time here. I doubt you’ll rven find a case of me using curse words either. I’m quite polite in the language I use.

However, it seems to me many people here are exhibiting the “Jimmy Kimmel problem”. You start off edgy, your tastes change as you get older, and then you want to shut down the pesky young’uns from enjoying the same edgy humoir you used to enjoy.

People should be free to be edgy so long as they don’t cross a lime of actual bigotry and hatred.

[Ziiro]

Or they'll double down and become worse, proving the assessment correct.

That's not them "doubling down", it's you pushing them away. All you're doing with this attitude is creating resentment. Going out of your way to bully these people is only going to push them into even more bigoted circles - and a person who could've been just edgy can then become an actual racist. You were the real pipeline all along.

[ekaterina]

[propaganda image]

Distorting something to make it look ridiculous does not mean it is ridiculous. You push these people away. They look for other circles. They find circles of actual racists willing to take them in, and they join these circles. They are then slowly indoctrinated by actual racists into actual racism, all because you were oversensitive and bullied them over being an edgelord.

It's not because they "feel bullied" as your image says. It's because they feel accepted... by actual racists, after being rejected by you.

[AlamoTurtle]

I wanted to mention this as well. People change a LOT in a short span of time. People are adaptable. If the situation changes, so will others. You can't hold someone's actions TEN (10) YEARS AGO as a basis for the PRESENT. Hell, less than ONE year is enough for someone to change, given the circumstances! People change. Dying on this hill because nostalgia from a decade ago isn't the way you change.

To be fair, this goes both ways - there are a lot of people who will castrate someone for saying something reprehensible years ago even after they've apologized for it.

I just fucking despise cancel culture in general, honestly. There's situations that call for it, namely with the whole pedo stuff, but petty shit like "he was mean to people he never understood a decade ago" is just sad and begging for conflicts that have been resolved a decade ago.