HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

[kinnebian]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=38&p=698498#p698498
looks like the new election is starting
are you running?
im running
who else is running?
are you excited for anyone in particular
have you already decided who you want to vote for?

[Lacran]

smh the roleplayers are ruining the game once again

let's make the process less democratic to stop them

the process is not democratic and that is the problem sinfulbliss has with it.

His proposed changes is to just restrict the choices, which is less democratic than what we currently have.

His criticsm is that the votes don't match the demographics so we need to cap them, which is dumb because a democratic system is about representing what people want, not representing what people are. If 80% of a country is obese that doesn't mean 80% of the government needs to be obese.

[The Wrench]

I still happen to think the creation of Manuel was a mistake.

Vote for me for headmin, and I will force random static names on Manuel players

[dendydoom]

smh the roleplayers are ruining the game once again

let's make the process less democratic to stop them

the process is not democratic and that is the problem sinfulbliss has with it.

i fail to see how a system that forces a headmin quota based on which server they play on to be any more democratic

headmins don't play the game anyway

[The Wrench]

The ideal solution is to get rid of the host vote. Hand it over to I don’t know. Maybe the coders? Banned players?

[oranges]

smh the roleplayers are ruining the game once again

let's make the process less democratic to stop them

the process is not democratic and that is the problem sinfulbliss has with it.

i fail to see how a system that forces a headmin quota based on which server they play on to be any more democratic

headmins don't play the game anyway

it's not any more democratic i just dont want people to mistakenly assume the election is democratic, it's not, it's designed specifically to prevent wild swings in the status quo.

[dendydoom]

smh the roleplayers are ruining the game once again

let's make the process less democratic to stop them

the process is not democratic and that is the problem sinfulbliss has with it.

i fail to see how a system that forces a headmin quota based on which server they play on to be any more democratic

headmins don't play the game anyway

it's not any more democratic i just dont want people to mistakenly assume the election is democratic, it's not, it's designed specifically to prevent wild swings in the status quo.

i see. in that case i agree with you. in all honesty i was just being snarky; i'm going through a rebellious phase right now.

[sinfulbliss]

Lacran+Dendy I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the issue. It's not about merit because obviously the 2/3 MRP headmins are going to hostvote someone who aligns with their values - another MRP headmin. Okay so that's 1 confirmed MRP headmin.

How about the adminvote? Well that's dominated by Manuel admins, because there are way more MRP admins than LRP admins. Literally look at the "Users browsing this forum" section and search scrubby. Okay so they vote for someone who aligns with their MRP values. That's 2 MRP headmins.

How about the playervote? Well here there's a chance at least, like how we got kieth (took 3 cycles and lots of pushing). Even here the odds are stacked against LRP because Manuel is a tight-knit community with a lot of involvement and unity so they push lots more votes out than the thick of LRP players that just connect to the game servers and game.

There you have it, 2-3/3 headmins being MRP, notice "having a good platform" and "merit" doesn't factor into things here. That just determines which MRP headmin you get.

Is it bitching for no reason? No! This actually affects how the server changes.

Why not a separate MRP headmin? The policies are different, what they want is different, I see no reason why everyone wouldn't be happier this way.

[wesoda25]

I will vote for fikou and whichever newest admin has the best platform/attitude.

Host vote: scriptis

[oranges]

the supposition that host votes are always an MRP headadmin is baseless nonsense that can be disproved by a short browsing through prior election threads

[sinfulbliss]

the supposition that host votes are always an MRP headadmin is baseless nonsense that can be disproved by a short browsing through prior election threads

there are obviously exceptions but if you go through you can see most of them are chosen from MRP admins
Manuel is 1/3 of the active servers. why is it not a 33% chance of an MRP pick

[Constellado]

The music at the top of the thread is neat, but why is there a video of dogs at the bottom?

I wanna run just to say hi to everyone during the debate and remind people to hydrate.

Make a good campaign!
I have high chance of voting, yes!

[Lacran]

the 2/3 MRP headmins are going to hostvote someone who aligns with their values - another MRP headmin. Okay so that's 1 confirmed MRP headmin.

For us to have an MRP headmin in the first place they needed to have had either the host or former LRP headmins pick them (as its been historically LRP dominated), so no. The fact we have an MRP headmin now disproves ingroup preference will always prevail.

How about the adminvote? Well that's dominated by Manuel admins, because there are way more MRP admins than LRP admins. Literally look at the "Users browsing this forum" section and search scrubby. Okay so they vote for someone who aligns with their MRP values. That's 2 MRP headmins.

You literally JUST had a conversation with kinneban about this, there are more LRP admins than MRP (assuming we dont count cambell). If the issue is acitivity or community involvement on the LRP admins side, that's an admin issue, not something you rig the system to fix.

How about the playervote? Well here there's a chance at least, like how we got kieth (took 3 cycles and lots of pushing). Even here the odds are stacked against LRP because Manuel is a tight-knit community with a lot of involvement and unity so they push lots more votes out than the thick of LRP players that just connect to the game servers and game.

Kieth likely had MRP voters too, also wise to point out one of Kieth's biggest detractors was a former Terry headmin Namelessfairy.

There you have it, 2-3/3 headmins being MRP, notice "having a good platform" and "merit" doesn't factor into things here. That just determines which MRP headmin you get.

Again, this makes no sense because we've historically had an LRP headmin majority, by your logic they'd be no way for us to have any MRP headmins and yet here we are.

Is it bitching for no reason? No! This actually affects how the server changes.

Your concern is valid, your reasoning and attempts and resolving it aren't.

Why not a separate MRP headmin? The policies are different, what they want is different, I see no reason why everyone wouldn't be happier this way.

Because we should have the best candidates for the position of headmin regardless of server affiliation. Your only issue is that LRP headmins is a minorty, your solution is to force MRP headmins to be a minority. Its not something that makes both parties happy, its just something that primarily makes you happy.

Because again, if you had as firm of a grasp on the state of LRP and the solutions that you think you did you being player's choice would be a no brainer and you should run. Be the change you want to see instead of just trying to rig the system so you're happy.

the supposition that host votes are always an MRP headadmin is baseless nonsense that can be disproved by a short browsing through prior election threads

there are obviously exceptions but if you go through you can see most of them are chosen from MRP admins
Manuel is 1/3 of the active servers. why is it not a 33% chance of an MRP pick

Because votes are representative of what people want, not what people are.

EDIT:
I had a think and I honestly think we should just have a low roleplay policy ruleset like how manuel has, that establishes precedents and execeptions to the main ruleset to help preserve LRP culture by codifying it. Interpretations of the main ruleset are going to be subject to different context as time goes on. If you want to preserve LRP culture and rulesets you should get them agreed upon and written down like manuel has. This would give the broader rules like being a dick and erp LRP specific protections and intepretations.

[Sightld2]

The host vote usually goes to the best at ERP. (Common Manuel gamer W)

[sinfulbliss]

Because we should have the best candidates for the position of headmin regardless of server affiliation.

Someone who has played and observed 3 rounds of LRP is not fit to make server-altering policy decisions about LRP. Someone who has played 3 rounds of MRP is not fit to make server-altering policy decisions about MRP.

Solution: assign the headmins to the flavor of TG they actually play, care about, and are knowledgeable of -- LRP or MRP. Why is this a bad idea?

Because again, if you had as firm of a grasp on the state of LRP and the solutions that you think you did you being player's choice would be a no brainer and you should run. Be the change you want to see instead of just trying to rig the system so you're happy.

I've only suggested we split things so Manuel gets their own headmin, and LRP gets the other two, so they can coexist in peace, don't you think it's a bit greedy to demand more than 1/3 of the headmin team to be solely Manuel admins who haven't stepped foot in LRP?

The last 4 terms (that's 2 years) have been predominantly MRP headmins. Which is fine but as a result TG is becoming more MRP, same reason Kieth ran and LRP players rallied around him, cause they got sick of it. Hopefully they do the same next cycle, we'll see I suppose.

[Capsandi]

Sinful you rube mrp chatroom players aren't coming for your fun videogame, balance coders already took it away years ago. Focus on important metrics like who is going to make the biggest fool of themselves during their term so that we can be forum chatroom posters while also shielding our infinite malice behind claims of wanting the best for the /tg/ station servers.

[oranges]

the people who make decisions have no interest in your views sinful

[Lacran]

Because we should have the best candidates for the position of headmin regardless of server affiliation.

Someone who has played and observed 3 rounds of LRP is not fit to make server-altering policy decisions about LRP. Someone who has played 3 rounds of MRP is not fit to make server-altering policy decisions about MRP.

Solution: assign the headmins to the flavor of TG they actually play, care about, and are knowledgeable of -- LRP or MRP. Why is this a bad idea?

Because your tribe doesn't actually reflect your ability to make rational desicions and make rulings that are fair which i've already explained.

The main rules apply to ALL servers, if you don't want the main rules to apply on LRP like they do on MRP and vice versa LRP needs its own ruleset.

Because again, if you had as firm of a grasp on the state of LRP and the solutions that you think you did you being player's choice would be a no brainer and you should run. Be the change you want to see instead of just trying to rig the system so you're happy.

I've only suggested we split things so Manuel gets their own headmin, and LRP gets the other two, so they can coexist in peace, don't you think it's a bit greedy to demand more than 1/3 of the headmin team to be solely Manuel admins who haven't stepped foot in LRP?

the only person demanding server specific slots is you, I think we should let candidates run on their merits. Keith did and he won the only person to kick up a giant fuss about that was another LRP headmin.

LRP and MRP are largely subjected to equal standards around the main rules, if you want LRP to have more leniency regarding the serverwide rules you'd need to get a headmin that agrees with you and actually makes the rules reflect that LRP is to be held to different standards regarding the main rules.

[sinfulbliss]

The main rules apply to ALL servers, if you don't want the main rules to apply on LRP like they do on MRP and vice versa LRP needs its own ruleset.

They do, but how admins enforce the rules differ. You're probably unfamiliar with the idea of a Manuelmin coming to Sybil or Terry and being The Biggest Bitch, not because they're a bad admin, but because they have been steeped in Manuel for 1000 rounds and have developed a stricter view of the rules and culture which make them fixate on things an LRP admin wouldn't glance at.

I feel like headmins shouldn't just be these rational banbots that enforce rules, they're something more than that, they need to be able to make the iffy decisions that could go EITHER way, and what determines which way they swing is -- you guessed it -- based on what server they play!

[sinfulbliss]

the people who make decisions have no interest in your views sinful

then stop reading them, kiwi

[Lacran]

The main rules apply to ALL servers, if you don't want the main rules to apply on LRP like they do on MRP and vice versa LRP needs its own ruleset.

They do, but how admins enforce the rules differ. You're probably unfamiliar with the idea of a Manuelmin coming to Sybil or Terry and being The Biggest Bitch, not because they're a bad admin, but because they have been steeped in Manuel for 1000 rounds and have developed a stricter view of the rules and culture which make them fixate on things an LRP admin wouldn't glance at.

I feel like headmins shouldn't just be these rational banbots that enforce rules, they're something more than that, they need to be able to make the iffy decisions that could go EITHER way, and what determines which way they swing is -- you guessed it -- based on what server they play!

The only people I see kicking up a fuss about this are the same 5 people whom are basically considered clowns by the general forum community and don't even seem to agree among themselves. But if you genuinely think your values represent LRPs values you should run for headmin off them, because I can virtually guarantee you no other headmin will implement the changes you think are reasonable and warranted.

[Archie700]

Words

Be the change you want to see, you should run

[Misdoubtful]

The less time someone spends talking about things and the more time they spend doing those things, the more I like them.

[TheLoLSwat]

I think the only person that doesnt believe in a sinful run is sinfulbliss himself

[oranges]

the people who make decisions have no interest in your views sinful

then stop reading them, kiwi

i just need to make sure you know this

[sinfulbliss]

I think the only person that doesnt believe in a sinful run is sinfulbliss himself

i would win so fast it would make your head spin

i dont have the time for it now, but more importantly ive always found a candidate i support wholeheartedly so why run against someone that i want to win?

but i will make you, and the countless other fans like you, a promise, Lisa: the instant i see a term with absolutely zero good candidates running, I will throw down

[Lacran]

I think the only person that doesnt believe in a sinful run is sinfulbliss himself

i would win so fast it would make your head spin

i dont have the time for it now, but more importantly ive always found a candidate i support wholeheartedly so why run against someone that i want to win?

but i will make you, and the countless other fans like you, a promise, Lisa: the instant i see a term with absolutely zero good candidates running, I will throw down

That's odd because none of the headmins you've voted for share your concerns on their platform and definitely haven't planned on making the changes you propose?

[Archie700]

Words

Be the change you want to see, you should run

[Chadley]

I am running.........

[kieth4]

I'd vote sinful if he was running. Sec mains stick together

[Not-Dorsidarf]

if you think the hostvote (headmin vote) favours "out of touch manuelmins" then you should convince MSO to hand his vote out differently. He seems pretty happy with how his votes get used.

[Jacquerel]

Is your preferred headmin candidate running?

Well then, you had better go catch them

[Tegun]

I liked the video at the end. The theme not so much.

I'm concerned about rule 6 regarding my platform.

you're intending to bribe people?

It could be construed as bribery, but it could also be construed as justice.

[RedBaronFlyer]

Is Sinful proposing a Lebanon style system where two thirds of the headmins must always be LRP admins and the other seat is an MRP one?

I wanna run just to say hi to everyone during the debate and remind people to hydrate.

I WILL DRINK THE SEA WATER, I WILL BE DEHYDRATED, YOU CANNOT STOP ME!

[Fikou]

I liked the video at the end. The theme not so much.

I'm concerned about rule 6 regarding my platform.

you're intending to bribe people?

It could be construed as bribery, but it could also be construed as justice.

will you unban 2beard

[Jonathan Gupta]

why not ill run

[Jonathan Gupta]

timberpoes had me as his third vote last time... If he believes in me I believe in me

[conrad]

Is Sinful proposing a Lebanon style system where two thirds of the headmins must always be LRP admins and the other seat is an MRP one?

I wanna run just to say hi to everyone during the debate and remind people to hydrate.

I WILL DRINK THE SEA WATER, I WILL BE DEHYDRATED, YOU CANNOT STOP ME!

You should run for headmin on that alone since already you're more dedicated to my platform than me.

[Timberpoes]

timberpoes had me as his third vote last time... If he believes in me I believe in me

Vote Gupta Autumn 2023.

[Jonathan Gupta]

I can feel my power....

[sinfulbliss]

That's odd because none of the headmins you've voted for share your concerns on their platform and definitely haven't planned on making the changes you propose?

this is patently false. last cycle I voted Lukas 1st and Timber like top 3 and it was my favorite headmin szn yet

[sinfulbliss]

if you think the hostvote (headmin vote) favours "out of touch manuelmins" then you should convince MSO to hand his vote out differently. He seems pretty happy with how his votes get used.

voting for a Mannymin as an LRP player/admin would be like voting for a canadian to be president of the US. who doesn’t live in the US. who’s never been to the US. who dislikes the US and prefers canada

[Lacran]

That's odd because none of the headmins you've voted for share your concerns on their platform and definitely haven't planned on making the changes you propose?

this is patently false. last cycle I voted Lukas 1st and Timber like top 3 and it was my favorite headmin szn yet

Which one of them felt like LRP is being destroyed and MRP should only get one headmin spot to prevent that?

[sinfulbliss]

That's odd because none of the headmins you've voted for share your concerns on their platform and definitely haven't planned on making the changes you propose?

this is patently false. last cycle I voted Lukas 1st and Timber like top 3 and it was my favorite headmin szn yet

Which one of them felt like LRP is being destroyed and MRP should only get one headmin spot to prevent that?

Lukas’s entire platform was championing LRP and preventing MRP policies from bleeding into it and he succeeded above and beyond

that’s why i voted for him

this MRP headmin idea i just floated yesterday cause it sounds beneficial, it’s not something I would expect a candidate to campaign for lol. it would need 2/3 headmins minimum and probably MSO or whoever has authority over the structure of TG governance itself. basically untenable

[Kubisopplay]

I'm going to run on a single platform of trying to convince MSO to fork and establish player vote on features. I haven't yet decided how unserious I'm gonna be about it tho

[Timberpoes]

Keep in mind that Kieth4 has had the support of two MRP headmins this term. He couldn't do anything without either myself or Misdoubtful agreeing. The fact you feel like he's had a productive term is indicative that it doesn't matter whether a headmin is MRP or LRP focused. We're tgstation headmins first and foremost. Fuck server and RP tribalism.

I am an MRP-pilled headmin. 99% of my played shifts are Manuel. People just don't realise it because I don't play, so they can't judge me on which servers I've been on recently.

Did you know the ruling regarding ligger validity brought LRP back into line with MRP, because admins ignoring round removal is how MRP was already handling people saying ligger? I'd already been enforcing it on MRP as such since MSO decided we couldn't ban ligger. Technically LRP got MRP's sloppy policy seconds. It's now more like MRP than it was before due to that ruling.

Also be super careful what you wish for. The codebase sees itself as MRP. Do you want the codebase going "Wow, these LRP headmins are dumb and we're not designing the game around the NRP tgstation they're supporting. We'll design the game around how the MRP headmins are running things, since it's more fun to code for that environment"?

There's a lot MRP and LRP can learn from each other. The sooner we stop wanking ourselves off over whether we're LRP or MRP and which is better (spoiler alert, Manuel and Sybil are identical and the outlier on tgstation server culture is Terry because it genuinely is our NRP server where netspeak is rampant), the sooner we can bring MRP ways of thinking to LRP problems and LRP ways of thinking to MRP problems for the betterment of both servers and tgstation as a whole.

[Misdoubtful]

Keep in mind that Kieth4 has had the support of two MRP headmins this term. He couldn't do anything without either myself or Misdoubtful agreeing. The fact you feel like he's had a productive term is indicative that it doesn't matter whether a headmin is MRP or LRP focused. We're tgstation headmins first and foremost. Fuck server and RP tribalism.

I am an MRP-pilled headmin. 99% of my played shifts are Manuel. People just don't realise it because I don't play, so they can't judge me on which servers I've been on recently.

Did you know the ruling regarding ligger validity brought LRP back into line with MRP, because admins ignoring round removal is how MRP was already handling people saying ligger? I'd already been enforcing it on MRP as such since MSO decided we couldn't ban ligger. Technically LRP got MRP's sloppy policy seconds. It's now more like MRP than it was before due to that ruling.

Also be super careful what you wish for. The codebase sees itself as MRP. Do you want the codebase going "Wow, these LRP headmins are dumb and we're not designing the game around the NRP tgstation they're supporting. We'll design the game around how the MRP headmins are running things, since it's more fun to code for that environment"?

There's a lot MRP and LRP can learn from each other. The sooner we stop wanking ourselves off over whether we're LRP or MRP and which is better (spoiler alert, Manuel and Sybil are identical and the outlier on tgstation server culture is Terry because it genuinely is our NRP server where netspeak is rampant), the sooner we can bring MRP ways of thinking to LRP problems and LRP ways of thinking to MRP problems for the betterment of both servers and tgstation as a whole.

A lot of people just don't understand how the headmin dichotomy works, I get it. Its certainly gotten better though.

Anytime someone starts praising a headmin specifically, they need to keep in mind that whatever that headmin is saying or doing 95% of the time has the backing of the others (or at least one) or may be wordlessly permitted/tolerated without a fuss but it is known about.

Praise terms and the roles themselves, not individuals. No single person enacts change around here, and its an incredibly slow churning machine.

Its why I think the elections fucking suck, because there is zero point in championing a platform you can not guarantee and don't have an action plan laid out for that can for sure happen. Almost everything isn't going to go as intended, there will be plenty of improvision, and some peoples principles may very well get sidelined when the need arises, or they lose a vote on something, or whatever else. In our cases specifically this term we've had a whole lot of life going on and conflicting schedules.

Probably one of the only real ways those running could even begin to make such a guarantee would be if they jointly ran for admin and player elect and only took on the burdens if they both won together. Which would honestly be super funny and I'd actually be interested in that one.

[conrad]

Its why I think the elections fucking suck, because there is zero point in championing a platform you can not guarantee and don't have an action plan laid out for that can for sure happen.

Oh good I thought I was going crazy for thinking platforms don't mean anything.

[Misdoubtful]

Its why I think the elections fucking suck, because there is zero point in championing a platform you can not guarantee and don't have an action plan laid out for that can for sure happen.

Oh good I thought I was going crazy for thinking platforms don't mean anything.

There is a reason I only posted a platform as a formality for being the host vote and that it had next to nothing in it.

That way if anyone gets disappointed its not because of me failing to keep my promises, its because they set some less than mutual expectations.

[Jonathan Gupta]

I play every server equally(Besides terry) Do not @ me terry nerds

[Fren256]

I think we should nuke voting and replace it with sortition

[TheLoLSwat]

I think platforms mean less and less the more familiar you are with the community (or in Misdoubtfuls case it meant nothing, with the host vote secured). An underdog coming in is going to need an all around great election cycle, including the introductions and policy to get initial eyes on you before the debates. Ideally, they will also be nolifing atleast two servers and maybe even the discord to speedrun player connection to go from "lol who is this LRP/MRPmin on my server" to "oh thats mr or ms admin they are my GUY/GIRL/PERSON/MOTH and I will die for them". Unless you're Stereo and you have the charisma of LA KNIGHT yeah, its hard to come back from a bad initial candidate page since you will be written off as a non-competitor

Somebody like goofball though is goofball and can completely troll his policy and he will still have diehard voters because he is funny.