Complaining about greenshifts/low threat shifts

[Itseasytosee2me]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Man greenshifts really do suck don't they?

I mean sure if you are really invested in doing a single job's content for an hour or more maybe you can tease some fun out of it, but even then I would argue less than half the jobs really have interesting things to do in an environment without conflict. There's no holes for engineer to patch up if there are no bombs. There are no people to heal if no one is hurting them. There's no evil to stand off against if there aren't any antagonists.

The roleplay content will naturally be worse as well. Without "current events" happening on the station the best you can do is dribble onto each other about character backstory, which is the roleplay equivalent of making small talk about the weather. There's nothing to "roleplay" about.

And sure, there is interpersonal conflict. Scraps that add a little bit of tension. That can make some alright roleplay, might lead to some fighting which can be fun. But naturally if we expect the main driving force of conflict to be a spat between two co-workers, the story doesn't end up all that dramatic. And if everyone is following escalation policy correctly, then there aren't any stakes either.

And finally the shuttle. The grand finale to any shift. Will almost certainly be called because someone is bored. But why else would it be called? If there are no antagonists, and everyone else is following the rules, the station should really never be in a state where a shuttle call is justified. But this isn't a game about workers on a space station doing their job ad-infinitum, its a game about the shift something going horribly wrong on a space station, and the crew has to evacuate or die. So naturally, people are bored, and they would rather play on a shift that wasn't so boring. This is a completely out of character justification for their actions, but it would be ridiculous to force players to stay in a round that they don't really have a purpose to be in. The only thing to do is completely break fiction. Characters working away endlessly at their job should be something that is off camera that takes place before or after the events on space station 13, not something the players should be doing.

So we end up with a mostly conflict-less shift, in which you did some menial task, had some pointless conversations, and didn't even get a decent ending.

And here's the worst part, so often with low threat shifts it only takes an inactive traitor or two to revert the entire station into a greenshift. If there are two traitors, and one gets caught and killed early on, and the other completes their theft objectives and then lays low for the rest of the shift, then boom we are back at the greenshift. Doomed to an eventual shuttle call out of boredom.

[mrmelbert]

I don't understand what you are saying

All I'm getting at in this thread is twofold:

1. You think greenshifts are boring because no one is interacting with you. So rather than wait for the interaction to come to you, go out and find the interaction yourself
2. There are plenty of ideas for things to go out and prod other people with, that's half of the sandbox of this game

[Itseasytosee2me]

I don't understand what you are saying

All I'm getting at in this thread is twofold:

1. You think greenshifts are boring because no one is interacting with you. So rather than wait for the interaction to come to you, go out and find the interaction yourself
2. There are plenty of ideas for things to go out and prod other people with, that's half of the sandbox of this game

Fair enough for an assistant, captain, or engineer, but there are still a good chuck of jobs that glue you to an area that really prevent you from doing anything more creative than the confines of your job. Unless you decide to just fuck off and deprive the station of your services.

[Higgin]

This is my whole point. Talk about what? Fluctuations in the galactic space market? I want to talk about how there are murderous backstabbers that could end us at any moment and not space weather.

The same thing that

someone is willing to talk to you about something interesting

is talking to you about

make something up, and prompt people to make something else up in response.

"why do you cook?" or "how'd you get started cooking?"

this probably isn't going anywhere if both of you are there to frag and fight, waiting for shit to go down - there's no "there" there

but if there is, there's a way to start. taking an interest is a great way to get an interest taken. it gives the person on the other side a prompt to fill in the blank - "what AM I doing here/what is John Grey doing here?" it can be the jumping off point for all sorts of things that are more round-impactful than bar RP character acting too. this is the game, or a lot of it, for some people - probably more clustered on manny, but they exist!

if you feel like you're slavishly bound to your mechanical job, and you know it's a greenshift, you can probably just ignore it until specifically asked, too (med and engi being possible exceptions to the extent that you should probably check alarms/medbay occasionally to make sure you don't just have corpses laying about or things going wrong.)

if you just want to do your internal mechanical loop or work on projects, greenshifts are great for that too

if you want threats and paranoia to engage you and your mechanics, I think it's at least fair for you to know "this round probably isn't gonna do that" when it's a greenshift - i think it is okay for people to dip out when they see a greenshift or to collectively decide they'd rather reroll by evaccing than wait through one in-game.

unless there's something like an event or whatever going, i think greenshift tells should be reliable. it's not fair to either the people who want action or the people who want a chill vibe round to bait them along into spending their time on something that ultimately only serves somebody else's pleasure.

there's a similar problem with antag-rolling where i think it's a symptom of bad design that the game is so much less fun to play crew-sided that, no shit, some people would rather not play if they don't get antag. antags need targets and a station full of people to blow up, so there's sort of a social contract of "I'll be your target today if you'll be mine tomorrow" involved in not exiting after you don't roll antag - also the hope of getting a midround - but still

in that example, the antag and target are both interested in playing the same games, so they can agree to trade roles.

in the case of a greenshift, people may very much not be interested in keeping the lights on and being a job bot for bar RP, megaprojects, or what have you - if the purpose of a greenshift is to create room for those things, then, it's only fair that those who don't care about them should know "this round isn't for me"

maybe we could fix this by doing what bay does and have an "add antag" vote after a bit - an option to insert threat - or let people vote between Extended and Dynamic?

in either case, greenshifts should be known as greenshifts unless the players collectively do something to change that in-round

edit: this turned into a massive ramble. when you've got people who don't want to get up to free play, or can't see themselves doing anything to make the greenshift sandbox more interesting without antags, I think it's valuable to have room for that free play. I don't blame anyone for checking out of it though.

[Drag]

Imagine being so socially stunted you don't know how to make even the most basic of small talk in the sandbox roleplaying game.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Imagine being so socially stunted you don't know how to make even the most basic of small talk in the sandbox roleplaying game.

You dont need to throw shade. I just dont think small talk is very fun. If small talk and job simulator is what greenshifts are, then they suck, because neither of those things are what make ss13 appeal to me, which is the drama.

[dendydoom]

my highly controversial take is that, to an extent, players have a responsibility to make their own fun and use the space productively. yeah, the game will jangle keys in front of you every so often to keep you entertained, but it won't wipe your ass for you. it's a toolbox of interesting and compatible systems that require imagination and thought to use. systems that create content are in lieu of this, but are not a replacement. there is more to the game than milling through antags, and this is not an especially new or interesting opinion.

i've seen greenshifts that were more chaotic than the worst black orbits. and all of the conflict was entirely ICly driven. greenshift doesn't mean you're not allowed to cause waves, it just means the game won't be providing any for you.

[Drag]

Imagine being so socially stunted you don't know how to make even the most basic of small talk in the sandbox roleplaying game.

You dont need to throw shade. I just dont think small talk is very fun. If small talk and job simulator is what greenshifts are, then they suck, because neither of those things are what make ss13 appeal to me, which is the drama.

Its not shade when you yourself have admitted you cannot or are will not willing to go out and have conversations with people, instead you would rather OTHER people think up novels worth of lore and come to you like some kind of NPC to start a conversation.

The game is not exclusively combat, but it's not exclusively roleplay either. You need to learn BOTH to get the most out of this game. The game throws shit at you to react to so rounds arnt repetitive metapools of actions. Figure out your own fun in the *sandbox* game.


Or you know, just eat the damn sand.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Its not shade when you yourself have admitted you cannot or are will not willing to go out and have conversations with people, instead you would rather OTHER people think up novels worth of lore and come to you like some kind of NPC to start a conversation.

You know drag? I'm really upset that you, as an admin, are continuing to throw personal insults at me, because I haven't said shit about you. Frankly I'm offended.

I never said anywhere that I was unwilling to initiate conversations with people, I never said I thought that the duty of making interesting conversation lied upon others.

[feaster]

Its not shade when you yourself have admitted you cannot or are will not willing to go out and have conversations with people, instead you would rather OTHER people think up novels worth of lore and come to you like some kind of NPC to start a conversation.

You know drag? I'm really upset that you, as an admin, are continuing to throw personal insults at me, because I haven't said shit about you. Frankly I'm offended.

I never said anywhere that I was unwilling to initiate conversations with people, I never said I thought that the duty of making interesting conversation lied upon others.

You're arguing with manuel primaries, so they aren't going to see eye to eye here, I think you would be better served to push for a threat adjustment for LRP rather than try to convince people who treat RP as an end that they shouldn't like greenshifts. The servers are separate so that arguments about things like this don't have to concern everyone.

[conrad]

If you roll something like chef as a non antag, you have to derive all of your fun out of the cooking minigame, the hope that someone is willing to talk to you about something interesting, or the hope that an antagonist is going to interact with you.

You know you, yourself, are able to go out and interact with other people, right?
You are not limited to waiting for more "relevant" players to come up to talk to you like an NPC.

This is my whole point. Talk about what? Fluctuations in the galactic space market? I want to talk about how there are murderous backstabbers that could end us at any moment and not space weather.

There's a plethora of dickery you can do that isn't rulebreaking. Refuse services to non-humans, or to humans. Demand compensation for your services. Spike food with happy drugs. Cut power to a department 'cos they called you a dick that one time. Recruit someone to build whatever it is that you do on another area of the station. Talk to people on general chat to get them interested on your gimmick.

It is safe to assume that if someone didn't commit roundstart suicide after getting the greenshift message they will want to either do job simulator stuff, or to fool around, and all they need is a gimmick.

At the same time, try to keep an open mind to ideas. You've been singularly shooting down ideas on a soapbox to remove greenshifts this entire thread and it's defeating the purpose of a conversation.

my highly controversial take is that, to an extent, players have a responsibility to make their own fun and use the space productively.

No.

[Drag]

Its not shade when you yourself have admitted you cannot or are will not willing to go out and have conversations with people, instead you would rather OTHER people think up novels worth of lore and come to you like some kind of NPC to start a conversation.

Frankly I'm offended.

Good. There is a lot of good advice here on how to handle and enjoy greenshifts. To me, you're just not listening to it because it's not high-octane combat. Conrad has said my thoughts but much nicer, I however will not baby you because you are an adult seemingly trying to seek honest advice.

Edit: I'm not trying to be a bitch for the sake of being a bitch, but every idea for you to try has been completely shot down because your stance is just "Greenshift bad" which is a bad take.

If a green shift is boring and you have an idea to spice up the round, ahelp and present a gimmick idea to get a rule 4 pass or just do shit to provoke conflict. You don't have to have tea and crumpets every green shift. 9/10 times an admin will agree to your gimmick idea as long as your idea isn't just "ABDUCTORS POG?".

[TheLoLSwat]

If you roll something like chef as a non antag, you have to derive all of your fun out of the cooking minigame, the hope that someone is willing to talk to you about something interesting, or the hope that an antagonist is going to interact with you.

You know you, yourself, are able to go out and interact with other people, right?
You are not limited to waiting for more "relevant" players to come up to talk to you like an NPC.

This is my whole point. Talk about what? Fluctuations in the galactic space market? I want to talk about how there are murderous backstabbers that could end us at any moment and not space weather.

There's a plethora of dickery you can do that isn't rulebreaking. Refuse services to non-humans, or to humans. Demand compensation for your services. Spike food with happy drugs. Cut power to a department 'cos they called you a dick that one time.

Cutting power to an entire department as a nonantag (especially in a way that is hard to fix), doesnt seem kosher unless you have a very, very good reason. Also who cares about refusing service unless you’re the only one in your department? If your job is important like med or engineer there will be someone else that rolled it or someone else / an AI to open the doors for you to help yourself. This (refusing service or demanding compensation) only applies to the chef who is usually solo and has the power to control the kitchen completely, and we have enough issues with chefs escalation baiting by refusing to make food just to cqc people that walk in

And as someone who’s been in multiple greenshift wars as both sec and crew, it’s hard even for me to gauge how far you can go when it comes to conflict since both parties are obviously nonantags. It can be fun but at the end of the day you’re doing Gods work just to substitute a traitor or changeling spawning and progressing the round naturally

[Drag]

Literally next time I'm an MD or Chemist on a greenshift I'm going to lable bath salts as "Snake Oil" and be a shady salesman all round, theres plenty of dumb stuff to do to keep you occupied.

[conrad]

Cutting power to an entire department as a nonantag (especially in a way that is hard to fix), doesnt seem kosher unless you have a very, very good reason.

There just need to be a better reason than "hueheuheuhuheeuh wirecutter go brrr". If the conflict is already laid out and it retaliatory, I would die on the hill if disagreement of that being a way to spice up the round. As with everything, there needs to be acceptable nuance to it.

Also who cares about refusing service unless you’re the only one in your department? If your job is important like med or engineer there will be someone else that rolled it or someone else / an AI to open the doors for you to help yourself. This (refusing service or demanding compensation) only applies to the chef who is usually solo and has the power to control the kitchen completely, and we have enough issues with chefs escalation baiting by refusing to make food just to cqc people that walk in

Hun I love you but failrp.

And as someone who’s been in multiple greenshift wars as both sec and crew, it’s hard even for me to gauge how far you can go when it comes to conflict since both parties are obviously nonantags. It can be fun but at the end of the day you’re doing Gods work just to substitute a traitor or changeling spawning and progressing the round naturally

Don't call the maintainers gods it feeds their ego.

I am someone who prefers the carrot to the stick. The only thing to do on a greenshift that's exclusive to it, besides your job unimpeded, is all station projects being made avaiable. It'd be cool if we had more greenshift content, or content only available on greenshift. In the meantime, make your own fun.

Saying this someone will either wyci me or tell me to shut up, usually both, but I stand by it.

[Drag]

I feel like a lot of people struggle with green shifts because we don't get the same whimsy and joy we got when we were all new, the game isn't this weirdly complicated and profoundly complex mess that for some reason is free in an age where we're in a capitalist hellscape and oh look you can light a cigarette and put it in your mouth slot. Now we're all just veteran players and admins and maintainers and we all know what we're doing.

It's hard to constantly think of new ideas, but we're at a point if we're not thinking of new ideas and gimmicks we just open ourselves up to being bored.

[warbluke]

Playing sec on greenshift is fun because you spend the first hour trying to get people to turn on their suit sensors and arguing with them about it and when you finally get everyone to do it you feel a rush like no other.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Its not shade when you yourself have admitted you cannot or are will not willing to go out and have conversations with people, instead you would rather OTHER people think up novels worth of lore and come to you like some kind of NPC to start a conversation.

Frankly I'm offended.

Good. There is a lot of good advice here on how to handle and enjoy greenshifts. To me, you're just not listening to it because it's not high-octane combat.

Well you aren’t listening to me then because i have said in this very thread that i care more than just about combat. I dont know what kind of player you think i am, but i would really appreciate it if you would stop being such an asshole for no reason.

[Jonathan Gupta]

playing a greenshift is waiting for someone to self antag

[Drag]

Its not shade when you yourself have admitted you cannot or are will not willing to go out and have conversations with people, instead you would rather OTHER people think up novels worth of lore and come to you like some kind of NPC to start a conversation.

Frankly I'm offended.

Good. There is a lot of good advice here on how to handle and enjoy greenshifts. To me, you're just not listening to it because it's not high-octane combat.

Well you aren’t listening to me then because i have said in this very thread that i care more than just about combat. I dont know what kind of player you think i am, but i would really appreciate it if you would stop being such an asshole for no reason.

Sure, and I apologize for letting my words be hostile up until this point.

To redirect the energy, some of these suggestions are actually really good. I'll chime in with my own: make and maintain a cake/coffee/milkshake cafe. Something like that is completely doable on your own, but it also has the potential of getting others on board to upscale it or obtain special ingredients

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Saying this someone will either wyci me or tell me to shut up, usually both, but I stand by it.

shut up, it'll happen when you code it >:C

There you go, bud.

[conrad]

Saying this someone will either wyci me or tell me to shut up, usually both, but I stand by it.

shut up, it'll happen when you code it >:C

There you go, bud.

sits down I lied.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Saying this someone will either wyci me or tell me to shut up, usually both, but I stand by it.

shut up, it'll happen when you code it >:C

There you go, bud.

sits down I lied.

Fuck I can't believe this toxic jannie bullshit, you shouldn't be allowed to lie to us.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Its not shade when you yourself have admitted you cannot or are will not willing to go out and have conversations with people, instead you would rather OTHER people think up novels worth of lore and come to you like some kind of NPC to start a conversation.

Frankly I'm offended.

Good. There is a lot of good advice here on how to handle and enjoy greenshifts. To me, you're just not listening to it because it's not high-octane combat.

Well you aren’t listening to me then because i have said in this very thread that i care more than just about combat. I dont know what kind of player you think i am, but i would really appreciate it if you would stop being such an asshole for no reason.

Sure, and I apologize for letting my words be hostile up until this point.

Thanks, i appreciate it.