Terry security at its finest. A gulagnut

[EmpressMaia]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33463

This is why I don't play terry

[rasonj]

This is how I feel every time I play on terry. Bunch of animals all trying to kill each other. I am firmly on team warden here, nothing more frustrating as warden than constantly being undermined. Sec off using his disabler against the warden should be treated as treason.

[kieth4]

Terry sec rocks man don't let 1 noob ruin the experience.

[Kendrickorium]

WHY YOU CALL SHUTTLE SUNSHINE

RECALL SUNSHINE

YOURE AN IDIOT SUNSHINE RECALL THE SHUTTLE

go play on manuel rig fucking hell

[Annihilite111]

Trialmin moment, prease understand.
And yeah roundstart armory lethals is cringe of the highest magnitude. You have everything you could ever need to beat anything that isn't either stun immune, outnumbers you heavily or get the jump on you on your secbelt, and immediately getting even stronger gear JUST IN CASE stinks of rule 12 violation.
This shit is why i purposely play as a gullible dumbfuck whenever i redshirt. Team baddies stands zero chance against experienced terrysec unless someone throws a bolt in the machinery now and then.

[ekaterina]

Part 1: Local warden disobeys his direct superior (the HoS) - objectively wrong here, you shouldn't deny your boss access to part of his department. The absolute state of warden moths...
Part 2: Local officer asks for guns, warden says no. Denying access to guns to officers with known threats is pretty bad but not against the rules.
Part 3: Officer breaks in anyway... this is wrong.
Part 4: Warden shoots his own officer. This is wrong too.
Part 5: Officer shoots back, obviously.
CORRECTION: PART 4: Officer shoots at the warden.
Part 5: Warden shoots back at the officer, obviously. /CORRECTION
Part 6: Warden shoots lethals at a fellow member of security. Absolutely in the wrong.
Part 7: Based AI shocks the warden. lmao. funny.
Part 8: The HoS gives the warden a direct order, and the warden refuses. The warden should be the one going to the gulag, not the officer.

"I didn't ask the HoS because I disagree with him" lmao the absolute state of moth wardens.

The giving of the note itself feels appropriate. The admin did the correct thing. ARE YOU HAPPY, VEKTER? I'M TAKING THE ADMIN'S SIDE, ARE YOU HAPPY?!
Assuming his description of the conversation is accurate, though, the poor communication from the admin needs to be improved upon.

[chocolate_bickie]

Everyone's in the wrong here.

Warden shouldn't have disobey'd the HOS.
Security Officer shouldn't have broken into the armoury.
AI should have set SMES to max before door shocking the Warden.

[conrad]

Terry sec rocks man don't let 1 noob ruin the experience.

You main HoS you have a bias

[Tearling]

Everyone's in the wrong here.

Warden shouldn't have disobey'd the HOS.
Security Officer shouldn't have broken into the armoury.
AI should have set SMES to max before door shocking the Warden.

The admin is the only one not in the wrong imo.

[Turbonerd]

I think the note should be more about disobeying HoS than sending the officer to labour. Sets a bad precedent that wardens can't punish officers for breaking into the armoury as an officer.

HoS and every single officer involved in the armoury tiding should get a ban. This is horrible NRP tiding in order to increase antag hunting efficiency. It fucking sucks that security tides and ruins things in order to hunt an antag. Rule 12 worthy in my opinion. Decreasing RP quality in order to increase valid hunt efficiency id the worst.

This sort of stuff is probably the biggest problem with Terry in my opinion. A lot of security officers, silicon (how the fuck does enabling emergency access prevents human harm after cult gets announced? sounds like it would jave the opposite effect), and command staff tend to assist tiders in tiding because it helps with valid hunting, and it's really terrible.

[NoxVS]

I think the note should be more about disobeying HoS than sending the officer to labour. Sets a bad precedent that wardens can't punish officers for breaking into the armoury as an officer.

gulag sentence of 1000 points without at least communicating this to their superiors is a bit excessive

[Vekter]

Trialmin moment, prease understand.

Right, because "trial admins know nothing about the game" is a new and original take.

[oranges]

head coder word of god on game design is warden has full control over armoury and only captain can overrule them good day.

[rasonj]

I always figure calling the HoS out for shitseccing is the wardens responsibility. That's why he gets the krav maga gloves.

[TheLoLSwat]

no matter what, bad look on HOS / captain (whichever of the two is actually taking leading security seriously). If you cant control a few officers and a warden how can you control anything else

[Armhulen]

no matter what, bad look on HOS / captain (whichever of the two is actually taking leading security seriously). If you cant control a few officers and a warden how can you control anything else

True. Want to get picked up early from daycare, little hos boo boo baby? Control your damn staff they should not be having round-long beetle battles

[wesoda25]

Note doesn’t seem fair to me. The warden used the tools they had available to resolve a conflict (ultimately non-lethally) which resulted from imperfect play from EVERYONE.

Is “communicate with your head of staff” a fair and appropriate line to draw on LRP? Yes. The same applies for “dont act like a NRP chimp and tide the wardens office as a sec officer,” “dont disabler spam the warden for denying you a gun,” “dont shock people because you feel like it.”

It’s bizarre to me that rig was brought up on communication of all things considering the many other questionable actions they AND others did throughout the shift. In my eyes this is a clear “you’re all dummies who handled this poorly and can deal with it yourselves” moment.

[wesoda25]

NOW that I’ve made the mistake of investing the effort of reading, thinking, AND posting about this appeal, I look forward to the 50% possibility of there being some definitive logs posted that make me look like an idiot.

[BeeSting12]

The HoS has armory access for a reason and should be allowed in there. He's the warden's boss. As HoS I find it obnoxious when the captain rushes armory roundstart but I don't really say anything because he's my boss. Same concept here except the HoS arguably has a more legitimate need for weaponry. Warden was also an ass for denying lethals to the officer. Changelings have abilities to shrug off stuns and even handcuffs. Killing the changeling is the only way to guarantee a minute or so of the changeling not escaping while you run to the crematorium.

Terrible warden but still an IC issue, it was a normal IC conflict leading up to the gulagging of the officer.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

NOW that I’ve made the mistake of investing the effort of reading, thinking, AND posting about this appeal, I look forward to the 50% possibility of there being some definitive logs posted that make me look like an idiot.

Oh you fucking KNOW that there's a lie in that appeal somewhere that someone's going to drop the log-bomb on and everyone's going to go "Y'know what the admin was actually right, I said this the whole time" or vice versa.

[iwishforducks]

NOW that I’ve made the mistake of investing the effort of reading, thinking, AND posting about this appeal, I look forward to the 50% possibility of there being some definitive logs posted that make me look like an idiot.

Oh you fucking KNOW that there's a lie in that appeal somewhere that someone's going to drop the log-bomb on and everyone's going to go "Y'know what the admin was actually right, I said this the whole time" or vice versa.

this is why i havent even bothered the time to invest an opinion on this, i’ll wait til the logs are posted and the story is set straight

[SkeletalElite]

You have everything you could ever need to beat anything that isn't either stun immune, outnumbers you heavily or get the jump on you on your secbelt

The guy in the appeal said there was a changeling.

Have you heard of our lord and savior adrenaline sacks. Creates 4 units of changeling adrenaline which heals 10 stamina damage per tick for 10 ticks, as well as makes you immune to the damage slowdown that stamina damage would normally cause you, purges any knockdowns on activation, reduces any further knockdowns/stuns applied by 30% and also gives 3 units of changeling haste which makes you fast as fuck.

Compared to fleshmend, which will only heal 5 burn per tick if you laser the changeling and does not provide immunity to damage slowdown

[Annihilite111]

You have everything you could ever need to beat anything that isn't either stun immune, outnumbers you heavily or get the jump on you on your secbelt

The guy in the appeal said there was a changeling.

Have you heard of our lord and savior adrenaline sacks. Creates 4 units of changeling adrenaline which heals 10 stamina damage per tick for 10 ticks, as well as makes you immune to the damage slowdown that stamina damage would normally cause you, purges any knockdowns on activation, reduces any further knockdowns/stuns applied by 30% and also gives 3 units of changeling haste which makes you fast as fuck.

Compared to fleshmend, which will only heal 5 burn per tick if you laser the changeling and does not provide immunity to damage slowdown

Cool but the HOS probably didn't know about the lings roundstart my guy

[Archie700]

NOW that I’ve made the mistake of investing the effort of reading, thinking, AND posting about this appeal, I look forward to the 50% possibility of there being some definitive logs posted that make me look like an idiot.

sorry for posting logs guys

[Timonk]

I would like to note that the security officer is very cringe even outside of that round

Here is the one experience i had with him
>Latejoin detective early in the round
>He's rushing the armory for riot armor to "buff his grappling"
>I go investigate and find a heretic rift with a blood pool and black gloves in cargo
>15 minutes later i say that I suspect that the heretic is a cargonian
>He immediately convinces the HoS to do random searches with him in cargo
>Heretic is the first person random searches
>He pulls off an impressive feat in killing and keeping him stunlocked with tackles and a bola (and a throwing star on top)
>Sometime later HoS random search the entire medical department because medborgs were emagged (it was the AI)

[EmpressMaia]

Now that the logs are posted on the appeal. Holy shit these players are children

[SkeletalElite]

Cool but the HOS probably didn't know about the lings roundstart my guy

Did you even read the appeal. The guy he gulagged for 1000 points specifically asked for a laser because there was a changeling on the loose. The HoS has nothing to do with it.

[Annihilite111]

Cool but the HOS probably didn't know about the lings roundstart my guy

Did you even read the appeal. The guy he gulagged for 1000 points specifically asked for a laser because there was a changeling on the loose. The HoS has nothing to do with it.

Incredibly low reading comprehension. I'm talking about the HOS taking a shotgun roundstart, not the laser gun incident.

[CPTANT]

Obviously IC conflict.

I hate that admins think they have to point to someone who is "right" and someone who is "wrong" in every IC conflict.

[EmpressMaia]

Obviously IC conflict.

I hate that admins think they have to point to someone who is "right" and someone who is "wrong" in every IC conflict.

I think it's more pressure from players to place an administrative action on IC shitters.

[wesoda25]

NOW that I’ve made the mistake of investing the effort of reading, thinking, AND posting about this appeal, I look forward to the 50% possibility of there being some definitive logs posted that make me look like an idiot.

sorry for posting logs guys

I think my post still holds up, HUGE win for uninformed opinion posting.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

On the one hand this is the worst kind of warden: A gun hoarder and a chain of command ignorer.

On the other hand the secoff should have been tied to a missile and launched into the sun for shooting the warden and breaking into the armory because he didnt get his pew pews as a first recourse.

Note should be clarified to "Against the HOS' instructions" however, because it's not that he didnt involve the HOS as the note implies - according to him the HOS got involved and told him he should let the guy go and he refused. Which is 2x cringe

[conrad]

Code: Select all

03:55:38	SAY	Okpuc/(Swamp Water) "I..."	(178, 130, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
03:55:42	SAY	Okpuc/(Swamp Water) "stunned my warden..."	(178, 130, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
03:55:44	SAY	Okpuc/(Swamp Water) "to shotgunmaxx..."	(178, 130, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
03:55:48	SAY	Okpuc/(Swamp Water) "some"	(176, 130, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
03:55:54	SAY	Okpuc/(Swamp Water) "manuel migrate or somethin"	(176, 130, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway

Peak rp

Is this an example of when retards collide?

[rasonj]

Warden telling hos off for roundstart shotgunning is my kind of warden. No one else is going to call the hos out for powergaming, so good on him. If he had batoned the HoS to keep him out of armory I would say he was in the wrong, but all he did was ignore a dumb and potentially rule/round breaking order. Telling the lizard sec off no seemed to be more based in frustration on the NRP terry enviroment, which I also find really frustrating to deal with. I imagine if the lizard was able to string three words together the warden wouldn't have said no, and then the dude starts disabler spamming like a twit.

[TheLoLSwat]

Warden, in an attempt to be a super cool arrpee sec character (which im sure they did after complaining about sec being nrp), disobeyed their commanding officer and also denied lethals for one of the most legitimate reasons you would need them. HOS shouldve asked the rest of the team (who wouldve agreed no doubt) and went through with demotion protocol. If you dont want to be a team player, go detective or something

[ekaterina]

I think the note should be more about disobeying HoS than sending the officer to labour. Sets a bad precedent that wardens can't punish officers for breaking into the armoury as an officer.

HoS and every single officer involved in the armoury tiding should get a ban. This is horrible NRP tiding in order to increase antag hunting efficiency. It fucking sucks that security tides and ruins things in order to hunt an antag. Rule 12 worthy in my opinion. Decreasing RP quality in order to increase valid hunt efficiency id the worst.

This sort of stuff is probably the biggest problem with Terry in my opinion. A lot of security officers, silicon (how the fuck does enabling emergency access prevents human harm after cult gets announced? sounds like it would jave the opposite effect), and command staff tend to assist tiders in tiding because it helps with valid hunting, and it's really terrible.

Noting people for disobeying heads of staff on LRP is... questionable. I'd wager there are varying opinions.
As to the precedent that wardens can't punish officers for breaking into the armoury, that's a GOOD precedent!
"HoS should get a ban" is the single worst take I've read on this incident.
I'm still not sure whether the warden really deserved a note for this or if it was entirely an IC issue, but I'm leaning towards the note because turning on your fellow sec is a really shit move, bordering on self-antag if not already there.

[Tearling]

Note doesn’t seem fair to me. The warden used the tools they had available to resolve a conflict (ultimately non-lethally) which resulted from imperfect play from EVERYONE.

Is “communicate with your head of staff” a fair and appropriate line to draw on LRP? Yes. The same applies for “dont act like a NRP chimp and tide the wardens office as a sec officer,” “dont disabler spam the warden for denying you a gun,” “dont shock people because you feel like it.”

It’s bizarre to me that rig was brought up on communication of all things considering the many other questionable actions they AND others did throughout the shift. In my eyes this is a clear “you’re all dummies who handled this poorly and can deal with it yourselves” moment.

I'll quote the worst part of what the warden did for you so you can read the logs easier

Code: Select all

04:09:26	SAY	Okpuc/(Swamp Water) "if you dont let him go"	(109, 167, 2)	Fore Port Maintenance
04:09:33	SAY	Okpuc/(Swamp Water) "you are getting demoted to tider"	(109, 167, 2)	Fore Port Maintenance
04:09:45	SAY	TypicalRig/(Porkchop) "Letting him go."	(196, 146, 2)	Labor Shuttle Dock
04:09:58	GAME	TypicalRig/(Porkchop) teleported KickPaw/(Hates-The-Stun) to the Labor Camp (69,32,5) for 1000 points.	(196, 146, 2)	Labor Shuttle Dock

[ekaterina]

nothing more frustrating as warden than constantly being undermined

I'm amused at how you portray this as the HoS (the boss) undermining the warden, rather than the warden undermining his boss.

[wesoda25]

Note doesn’t seem fair to me. The warden used the tools they had available to resolve a conflict (ultimately non-lethally) which resulted from imperfect play from EVERYONE.

Is “communicate with your head of staff” a fair and appropriate line to draw on LRP? Yes. The same applies for “dont act like a NRP chimp and tide the wardens office as a sec officer,” “dont disabler spam the warden for denying you a gun,” “dont shock people because you feel like it.”

It’s bizarre to me that rig was brought up on communication of all things considering the many other questionable actions they AND others did throughout the shift. In my eyes this is a clear “you’re all dummies who handled this poorly and can deal with it yourselves” moment.

I'll quote the worst part of what the warden did for you so you can read the logs easier

Code: Select all

04:09:26	SAY	Okpuc/(Swamp Water) "if you dont let him go"	(109, 167, 2)	Fore Port Maintenance
04:09:33	SAY	Okpuc/(Swamp Water) "you are getting demoted to tider"	(109, 167, 2)	Fore Port Maintenance
04:09:45	SAY	TypicalRig/(Porkchop) "Letting him go."	(196, 146, 2)	Labor Shuttle Dock
04:09:58	GAME	TypicalRig/(Porkchop) teleported KickPaw/(Hates-The-Stun) to the Labor Camp (69,32,5) for 1000 points.	(196, 146, 2)	Labor Shuttle Dock

DAMN. I was wrong, huge loss for uninformed opinion posters today

[ekaterina]

200531, that makes more sense. I was in that round, where I vaguely remember hearing something about someone asking where some lizard was and the warden saying he's fine. I didn't really notice those events as I was busy out and about shitseccing up the place, uncovering a four man conspiracy, and being promptly killed seconds after exposing its members to our robust head shitsec. When I went to check logs, however, I saw 200531 (actual round) but not 200535 (the round he listed before).

[Boot]

I don't know why anyone would give Finn Saylor the benefit of the doubt.

[rasonj]

Dang, I completely agree with LiarGG on everything they said and am surprised that we came to different conclusions despite having functionally the same take on the situation. I feel like they were so close to calling the whole thing an IC issue and letting it go, which is what I think it is. The 1000 points and ignoring the hos is absolutely very high, but it is literally the max punishment in the rules that are supposed to always be an IC issue. Sec off using his disabler on the warden first removes pretty much all protection from non lethal retaliation from the warden IMO. Either way, good break down and analysis of the appeal by LiarGG, just wish they had ruled it an IC issue.

[CPTANT]

Why do we have a rule about punishment up to 10 min/ 1000 gulag points being IC when admins are just blatantly going to ignore it?

[ekaterina]

Sec off using his disabler on the warden first

Come again? Guh, I thought it had been the warden to shoot first. This changes things.
Not a lot, actually, but a little.

Why do we have a rule about punishment up to 10 min/ 1000 gulag points being IC when admins are just blatantly going to ignore it?

We don't.
"Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment. "

[NecromancerAnne]

Changelings have abilities to shrug off stuns and even handcuffs. Killing the changeling is the only way to guarantee a minute or so of the changeling not escaping while you run to the crematorium.

You overestimate ling escape ability. At the moment, because lings expect to be lethaled instead of people using nonlethal equipment, they'll use the much cheaper, much more efficient fleshmend over adrenaline. Adrenaline and biodegrade are both quite expensive and eat into the lings longevity, and have more tells than fleshmend, which has no tells whatsoever because its a status effect. While adrenaline definitely has upsides (the speed for about 15 seconds is hella good), you probably don't need it.

Unless you're absolutely certain you're fighting a ling, a ling just using fleshmend can withstand a lot of punishment without you being the wiser. The only times this doesn't matter is if you're using overwhelmingly large amounts of damage, around the 50-60 range, which shotguns do pretty much by default, as does a baton which adrenaline currently has no interaction with other than removing knockdowns currently affecting them, not preventing knockdowns if they're still to take effect (like how stun batons work). Extreme damage happening so quickly is usually not much better than a stun. To lean into trends, its better to use rubbershot than lethal shot, and its easier to use batons and bolas than shotguns, because it will consume even more chemicals if they did actually think ahead but now need to resolve that. You can kill at that point.

Schrödinger's Changeling with every conceivable power isn't a reality you need to worry about unless you're absolutely sure the ling has been absorbing every other ling, so just disabling the ling and keeping them cuffed and stamcrit is usually good enough. If you're killing lings with shotguns, you could probably have just use a baton instead. Flashes too, since lings sometimes expose themselves to those with xray vision.

[CPTANT]

We don't.
"Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment. "

Yes, more than 10 minutes and gulag sentences have always been considered 1 min = 100 points.

It makes sense for permanent gulagging. Saying 10 minutes brig can't be ahelped but 100 gulag points can makes no sense whatsoever.

[ekaterina]

We don't.
"Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment. "

Yes, more than 10 minutes and gulag sentences have always been considered 1 min = 100 points.

It makes sense for permanent gulagging. Saying 10 minutes brig can't be ahelped but 100 gulag points can makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes, it does make sense, actually, because when you get a brig sentence you can use the following little trick: stand up from your chair, go outside, and touch grass, then come back 10 minutes later. When you get a gulag sentence, though, you can't - plus the gulag is broken (unless they've fixed it the past few days) so all gulag sentences are permanent.

[CPTANT]

We don't.
"Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment. "

Yes, more than 10 minutes and gulag sentences have always been considered 1 min = 100 points.

It makes sense for permanent gulagging. Saying 10 minutes brig can't be ahelped but 100 gulag points can makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes, it does make sense, actually, because when you get a brig sentence you can use the following little trick: stand up from your chair, go outside, and touch grass, then come back 10 minutes later. When you get a gulag sentence, though, you can't - plus the gulag is broken (unless they've fixed it the past few days) so all gulag sentences are permanent.

By that reason execution is the ultimate IC issue because you can touch all the grass you want and come back next round.

I have never ever heard anyone claiming you can ahelp every 100 or 300 point gulag sentence and that it is not an IC issue when the officer is wrong. I doesn't remotely make sense when it is seen as equivalent of the brig.

[ekaterina]

By that reason execution is the ultimate IC issue because you can touch all the grass you want and come back next round.

Based take.

I have never ever heard anyone claiming you can ahelp every 100 or 300 point gulag sentence and that it is not an IC issue when the officer is wrong. I doesn't remotely make sense when it is seen as equivalent of the brig.

You literally just did.

[TypicalRig]

Adrenaline sacs is noob bait and anyone that used it as an argument clearly hasn't used it or only used it years ago when it wasn't nerfed. There's a reason flashmend is the preferred meta and nobody goes with adrenaline sacs. The reason is that stun batons and disablers still hard counter it. The haste is alright, but lings can get that for cheaper without sacs. Hell, they can get it essentially for free if they do some chemistry.

Also disobeying your head isn't a noteworthy offense (except on Manuel perhaps?) The same way mutinies are allowed if incompetence is proven, people can disregard head orders for good/bad/no reason. You'll see this happen often on Terry and Sybil with engineers and the CE, RD asking his scientists and roboticist to do projects they don't care about, or the CMO with chemists. Ignoring orders is a reason for demotion, not administrative action. Acting without head permission is an IC issue, an admin PM for such isn't even remotely justifiable. Even if it were, I don't really get why I'm meant to reasonably expect the HoS to discuss a punishment for one of his buddies for tiding the armory when he himself did this roundstart to "shotgunmax". It's a bad faith administrative decision to go through logs like that, see the HoS's actions, see my prior attempt at asking them to leave and explain their emergency and seeing how well that went, and then have the cheek to ask why I didn't try to talk with that same HoS about it. From what prior interactions do I have grounds to believe he's capable of a civil conversation and fair decision making? There were none.