/tg/Station 13

post your likes and dislikes here.

birdstation is a pox upon our land. you should reopen https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/22307

Scriptis wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:21 am birdstation is a pox upon our land. you should reopen https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/22307

no, people did not support me then so out of spite i wont.

well im drunk and i tried

can you put more birds at least

The layout is confusing, and, to make it all worse, the "navigation" verb doesn't even do anything. I can't find places unless I already know where they are.
From arrivals, going one side takes you to the actual station, going the other side takes you to some unrecognisable shithole.
Why do I have to go through atmos to get to the engine room?
Birdshot's brig is cool but it's missing the toolbox.
At least the whole station's on a single Z level, so it already beats 3 of the other maps in rotation.

atmos doesn't have any CO2!!! if there's no room to add a CO2 tank a lazy fix for this is to give atmos free CO2 canisters

You guys are confusing birdshot with birdstation

whats the difference

Rageguy505 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:23 am You guys are confusing birdshot with birdstation

Huh. He's right.
This is now the official birdshot feedback thread.

Ezel wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:53 am whats the difference

"Birdstation" is BirdboatStation https://tgstation13.org/wiki/BirdboatStation whereas we were talking about Birdshot Station https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Birdshot

It's confusing, isn't tram station and will lead me to observe the round instead of playing.

It captured the spirit of birdboat perfectly, the spirit being "suicide at hopline".

I want to see the concept, not execution, of Ceres revived instead. With trams.

I love the tram that bridges the gap between perma area and medbay maint, excellent project spot. Likewise, I like botany layout and Cargo's decent with the fancy shuttle upgrade it has.

However, I think the ultra-shitty vibe goes a little TOO hard in Engi, with it feeling like a mess of airlocks to navigate for a bunch of tools to be missing, like aforementioned CO2. I'll elaborate a bit once I think on it more or if anyone asks me any specific questions on it.

The Medbay layout has been joked about a lot, but in all seriousness, I think the only thing that has to go is the plants in the glass in the center of the "bubble." There's a shitload of rounds I just see the glass broken, break it myself, or otherwise see it torn down entirely because Medbay needs a bit more of an open layout than that. I don't think it would hurt sovl too hard to straight-up have Central dig those ferns out to never be seen again, if only so there's no more shards tripping over lizards every other Bird round.

The space in the south-east/bottom right of the map feels entirely unused. It's not just "shitty empty part of the station," like some of the northeast dorms area is around Gravgen, it just feels genuinely and entirely unused. There's good space for projects there, but the ONLY playtime I've had in there was as janitor tracking down stains for Legendary Cleaner and as an engineer to track down some meteor holes in the station. Literally never seen another player around that area, so perhaps a rework of the whole quadrant is in order.

I like how the kitchen and the bar is connected, but wonder if more could be done with that concept. Also like how the cook gets a soda dispenser, good design.

I BELIEVE the clown's cave they spawn in lacks one of the crates with the pie cannon and spare pies/can of laughter, or at the very least lacks some amenities of normal clown area/spawns to outfit them and all. I believe all that's there is the Costumedrobe thing and the Donksoft vendor. Not terrible, but not great. Could use more love.

The Lawyer's office is beautifully shitty, but is far, far too out of the way to be used much. Not all lawyers use the office a lot, so it's not a huge issue, but I feel like it suffers from a similar issue as that southeast corner; rendered into disuse by location or map flow or whatever, nobody walks past it down that hallway. Same goes for the Vacant Commissionary; I've seen it used a lot on basically every map but Birdshot. No idea how that could be fixed, but a shuffle may help these locations see more use.

One of my greatest experiences on Birdshot that ultimately swayed my opinion so hard I no longer call it Birdshit was when we had literally zero command for a full hour, and in that hour I tided into the bridge to take the spare and assume Captaincy. It was a very janky situation being gravepop, but I used my access to help everyone as much as I could. I was an errand girl in funny clothes, but somehow, everyone listened and despite everything (SM sabotage, kudzu found late, eventual adminbus Blob) we made it through with a survival rate over 90%, as the crew had grown to around 20 across the 3 hour!!!!! shift. It's ironic that my favorite round on Bird was full Tiderstation13, but I think that's part of the appeal, as well. It's not nearly as fun for most station improvement jobs, but if you're in a high-threat round and the crew is ON TOP OF IT, fighting each and every one instead of bitching out and early calling? The tiding flows perfectly into the station built for the tider, and into the cycle between antag and crew. It's a good map, and even if I'm not it's strongest defender, I will say that whenever people start dogging on it.


Also throw in more secrets because we have so much unused space and I love the ones already in >:3c

pigeon

I miss pubby so friggin baaaad

i like how the shuttle is the only non grief shuttle with only 1 set of doors so when i buy it only 1 Airlock leads to the shuttle and the smooth brains think they can take any airlock BUT THATS NOT TRUE AHHAHAHAHAHAHA

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 2:53 pmpigeon

nah

ekaterina wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 12:28 pm

Rageguy505 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:23 am You guys are confusing birdshot with birdstation

Huh. He's right.
This is now the official birdshot feedback thread.

Ezel wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:53 am whats the difference

"Birdstation" is BirdboatStation https://tgstation13.org/wiki/BirdboatStation whereas we were talking about Birdshot Station https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Birdshot

its the same picture

I love birdshot. I like its non standard layout. I love the maze-like maints. I think the bridge and brig are very well designed areas. I love all the stuff in maints.

I think many very valid complaints have been made about it as-well. Atmos is a mess and its very easy to tide the engineering lobby. I really like the telecomms set up but it IS odd for it to be on the polar opposite side of the station from engie.

Botany could use some love. They need more space.

THE AI SAT IS SO EASY TO BREACH AAAAAAAHHHHH. the gas weapon system in it is top tier but oh man is it structurally weak.

Other than that is very minor things. Like eva having no shutter button or areas missing items (no tool box for the warden!!!)

I will always vote birdshot so yeah when you see it winning weighted random with one vote that was me.

Welcome back to another tier list this time I'm rating maps people call lowpop maps even though some of them really aren't lowpop maps

Coming in at S tier we have Kilostation, yeah baby we love Kilo, fun maint, soulful department design, really makes the station feel tight nit which is crucial for a lowpop map, truly a masterpiece.
Also in S tier we have Omegastation, it's Kilo but smaller and cooler, love that Service area, wish it had head of staff offices but it really rocks it. It has the same character as Kilo, which makes sense because they're both Okand maps.

In A tier we have Runtimestation, because it's the map I play the most
I'll also put Sokoban in A tier even though it's not an official map because it's quaint

In B tier we have Pubby, its maint sucks horribly but it has immense nostaliga factor so it stays alive. It didn't age super well, and it's kinda just a Box clone. Its cargo redesign shortly before it passed was unique, so I admire it, but unfortunately: uniquely bad to actually play
Also in B tier I'll put Birdshot, it's got some cool design elements, like the AI sat to bridge bridge, but it also has some really uncool design elements, like forcing people into a 1 tile wide walkway in the most busy area of the station (medbay). It's also too dang spread apart which means it fails the most important aspect of a "lowpop station"

In C tier we have Ministation, the only true Lowpop map on this list, maybe too small for it's own good, it's literally 1 hallway, but it does the job.

In D tier we have Birdboat, it's like this station was designed by someone dreaming, none of it makes sense
Any other meme lowpop station also goes in this tier like ISSStation and TowerStation

I ran Sokoban station yesterday. I do like it. Though, I didn't notice there were 30+ people when I decided to do that

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:42 am Welcome back to another tier list this time I'm rating maps people call lowpop maps even though some of them really aren't lowpop maps

Coming in at S tier we have Kilostation, yeah baby we love Kilo, fun maint, soulful department design, really makes the station feel tight nit which is crucial for a lowpop map, truly a masterpiece.
Also in S tier we have Omegastation, it's Kilo but smaller and cooler, love that Service area, wish it had head of staff offices but it really rocks it. It has the same character as Kilo, which makes sense because they're both Okand maps.

In A tier we have Runtimestation, because it's the map I play the most
I'll also put Sokoban in A tier even though it's not an official map because it's quaint

In B tier we have Pubby, its maint sucks horribly but it has immense nostaliga factor so it stays alive. It didn't age super well, and it's kinda just a Box clone. Its cargo redesign shortly before it passed was unique, so I admire it, but unfortunately: uniquely bad to actually play
Also in B tier I'll put Birdshot, it's got some cool design elements, like the AI sat to bridge bridge, but it also has some really uncool design elements, like forcing people into a 1 tile wide walkway in the most busy area of the station (medbay). It's also too dang spread apart which means it fails the most important aspect of a "lowpop station"

In C tier we have Ministation, the only true Lowpop map on this list, maybe too small for it's own good, it's literally 1 hallway, but it does the job.

In D tier we have Birdboat, it's like this station was designed by someone dreaming, none of it makes sense
Any other meme lowpop station also goes in this tier like ISSStation and TowerStation

God bless kilo station, it was ART. pubby was so uninspired though D+ tbh

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:16 am I ran Sokoban station yesterday. I do like it. Though, I didn't notice there were 30+ people when I decided to do that

after sokoban was ran, there were 30 people less

Sokoban is a delicate and beautiful work of art

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:31 am pubby was so uninspired though D+ tbh

sjut the FUCK UP

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:27 am Sokoban is a delicate and beautiful work of art

Nah

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:16 am I ran Sokoban station yesterday. I do like it. Though, I didn't notice there were 30+ people when I decided to do that

In all fairness the pop genuinely doubled in real time and just kept gaining momentum. Sokoban was a surrealist experience and I’m so glad I was mime because I dunked hard on Security and ran around the whole station like a motherfucker and it ruled.

dendydoom wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:29 pm

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:31 am pubby was so uninspired though D+ tbh

sjut the FUCK UP

Sorry to say but without Nostalgia goggles Pubby is just painfully mid, it doesn't have anything going for it besides the Monastary satellite - and no one actually visited there because it was so out of the way

And god forbid you have to play antag on Pubby there's NO MAINTENANCE. No room for shenanigans. You're just playing Boxstation but smaller.

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 7:49 pm

dendydoom wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:29 pm

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:31 am pubby was so uninspired though D+ tbh

sjut the FUCK UP

Sorry to say but without Nostalgia goggles Pubby is just painfully mid

Shut yo mouth

dendydoom wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:29 pm

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:31 am pubby was so uninspired though D+ tbh

sjut the FUCK UP

pubby is like that movie you LOVED in high school that you force someone to watch with you and within 20 minutes realize it's not actually very good

we need a map that is just randomly and procedurally generated each time it is run.

Constellado wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:01 am we need a map that is just randomly and procedurally generated each time it is run.

Roguestation when

Constellado wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:01 am we need a map that is just randomly and procedurally generated each time it is run.

fikou(?) made something like this but it was with modular rooms
i have also thought about doing a completely random station but that would be horrible because wiring + maint + pipes + hallways + departments and they have to fit too

If you think about it there's tons of rogue like games but barely any where the generation criteria isn't "slap that shit in there and call it a day" but "each department has to have a certain size, with sub departments of a certain minimum size, connected by hallways that have to make sense, with a buffer hallway around much of the department, also pipes and wires have to be dynamically connected so they can be accessible"
Which is also why making a good station nobody whines about is so hard because you're guaranteed to miss something

But I don't think it's impossible given skills of a certain kind

procedural maints rooms would be cool..... haha just kidding... unless...............

Sokoban is an easy s+ tier, kilo gets an f tier because I didnt like it and my opinion is law, pubby gets big chapel/10, box gets icebox - ice tier and Cerestation gets SS tier as the best lowpop map

oh right birdshot and birdboat, birdboat gets crime of nature tier and birdshot gets cool asteroid things but I havent played it enough/10

PapaMichael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:25 am procedural maints rooms would be cool..... haha just kidding... unless...............

Procedural maintenance won't be nearly as good as hand created maintenance

Randomized maint is supposed to be "best of both worlds" but its existence is a plague upon us, sooo

Imagine if Kilo had modular maintenance though so you didn't know if the cat surgeon was going to be there this shift...

Maints flourish from both procedural elements and hand-painted rooms/secrets. I’ve also heard procedural elements are hard as sin to maintain.

I love discovering a new secret on an old map, like the Keeper of the Ark on Meta I just discovered last week that blew my mind. Would I get slapped for moving maints around a bit FNR and tossing in secrets as a PR to throw a bone to players?

Also we’re so off topic from bird shot dead in the streets it’s wild

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 7:49 pm

dendydoom wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:29 pm

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:31 am pubby was so uninspired though D+ tbh

sjut the FUCK UP

Sorry to say but without Nostalgia goggles Pubby is just painfully mid, it doesn't have anything going for it besides the Monastary satellite - and no one actually visited there because it was so out of the way

And god forbid you have to play antag on Pubby there's NO MAINTENANCE. No room for shenanigans. You're just playing Boxstation but smaller.

wrong. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

not every map has to be some grandiose statement that redefines mapping. if i could go back to the ancient times of 2021 and show you putting KILO above PUBBY you'd do that dramatic thing in movies where they look down at their own quivering hands and question the depths of the darkness that lies within their own heart.

kilo is pretty to walk around in. it's assistant heaven. it has nice maints and it's easy to break into places. THAT'S IT. the departmental layout is atrocious and any complaint about birdshot's layout is just as true for kilo.

pubby was a beautiful workhorse of a map. it knew what it was, and that was to facilitate GOOD, WHOLESOME META-LIKE ROUNDS DURING LOW/MID-POP HOURS. it was a godsend to manuel nolifers like myself at the time who woke up early just to get a few rounds in. yeah, nothing too fancy about it, but it could make a round with 10 people in it feel like 30. it was PERFECT and its niche for providing a good lower population map HAS YET TO BE FILLED!!!!!!!!!!!

i will not HEAR THIS DISRESPECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Icebox sucks because multi-z and no cool space background but Tramstation has a Tram so it's cool.
I've still only ever played North Star once because of pop requirements so I cannot state any opinion on that, And I'm not sure if I've played Delta at all in the past four months either.
I know I've played Birdboat at least once but I cannot remember anything. I do remember disliking Cere but also liking the hatred it could inspire in people.

dendydoom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:44 pm
not every map has to be some grandiose statement that redefines mapping. if i could go back to the ancient times of 2021 and show you putting KILO above PUBBY you'd do that dramatic thing in movies where they look down at their own quivering hands and question the depths of the darkness that lies within their own heart.

Maybe 2020 but I was definitely redpilled on this by 2021

dendydoom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:44 pm
the departmental layout is atrocious and any complaint about birdshot's layout is just as true for kilo.

I disagree, Birdshot and Kilo are polar opposites.

Kilo's design of "no hallways in departments" results in winding rooms that wrap around the primary hallway, allowing anyone walking by to peek in and see people working or talking or stabbing each other. (With the exception of Security really, because of balance reasons)
Compare that to Birdshot, where despite having quite lengthy primary hallways, you can hardly peek into any department besides Medical (and even then, the busy parts of medical are in the interior). All the departments are tucked away and fully surrounded by maintenance leaving the station to feel a lot less communal.

I don't think there's really much too compare about the two maps outside of "they're maps designed to look run down".

dendydoom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:44 pm
it was PERFECT and its niche for providing a good lower population map HAS YET TO BE FILLED!!!!!!!!!!!

We've been largely moving away from the concept of a "low pop map" due to them being (generally) harder to maintain and there being much less of a need to have one.

The maptainers would prefer if we just had "Maps that played well no matter the pop" than "Maps that only play good in certain pop ranges".

Rest of the post is valid though.

DrAmazing343 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:49 pm Maints flourish from both procedural elements and hand-painted rooms/secrets. I’ve also heard procedural elements are hard as sin to maintain.

The only procedural aspects of our maintenance is the random spawners, which are not that difficult to maintain. They cause issues once in a blue moon (like there was an issue once where the stars would align and it would result in The North Star spawning a landmine and then blowing up, causing a hole in maintenance, which would fail code tests)

Randomized maintenance, such as that on Tramstation, is much harder to maintain.
- We can't test every possible permutation of random maintenance segments combined so it means some combinations are probably invalid in some way.
- Because of this extra scrutiny needs to be placed on reviewing every segment which is time consuming and difficult.
- Because reviewing, is difficult it can result in things being accidentally mapped (such as when we had an infinite power cell in Tram maintenance) or mapped wrong, which would lie unnoticed for weeks or months due to the random aspect.
- On top of this if you want to change a department on a station with a lot of random maintenance, and that change involves remapping maintenance, you now have like 6 segments to remap.

Now, this doesn't mean random maintenance MUST be this difficult - Some other servers simply make generic sized rooms and then randomly plop in templates.
This works a lot better, but it steals a lot of character from the map and is something I'm kinda against.

DrAmazing343 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:49 pm I love discovering a new secret on an old map, like the Keeper of the Ark on Meta I just discovered last week that blew my mind. Would I get slapped for moving maints around a bit FNR and tossing in secrets as a PR to throw a bone to players?

Not at all, feel free - just make sure you're not mapping in admin only stuff or things which should otherwise never be mapped in (such as the Life Candle (which we accidentally mapped into Tramstation (if you know, you know)))

I'm gonna download strongdmm and figure out how this shit works.

Also, Birdshot's new ArcMining room with the boulder teleporters and stuff have airlocks that appear to have no access requirements, allowing anyone in Cargo/Engi maints to enter into Cargo's warehouse area! Hilariously enough, as well— the airlock for the Primary Tool Storage maintenance tunnels to the north do not have proper Maintenance permissions set, meaning an assistant that wishes to tide into Cargo by the aforementioned arcmining room must take a glorious venture all the way up through northern Engi maints, through Engi's break room, across the western maints space bridge, and all the way down to the Arcmining room again.

I love this game.

Some thoughts since manny seems to roll this map 2-4 times a day minimum:

The foot traffic is super concentrated around the brig front entrance, kitchen/bar, and botany. All of the other places on the station feel incredibly empty, which is a weird feeling for a lowpop map honestly since birdshot is actually pretty damn big. There are a lot of maints areas out to the east and south that I never see anyone in, and they are very out of the way. Also there is a huge issue with finding things. Certain areas like the centcom shuttle dock are tucked away into an interior maint section of the station (Why?). Tcomms is similarly middle of nowhere with it being on the bottom right part of the map just outside of science. This important and high security area is right next to the fucking detroit hallway with all the broken tiles and cones. Which is a funny meme, but its bad for new people traversing the map and trying to logically figure out where stuff 'ought to be based on where they usually see it on other maps.

The bridge console can't be seen by anyone outside the command area, and standing outside the bridge as the captain/heads shout at the unwashed masses is an ss13 classic (Northstar has the same issue).

You can breach the armory through 1 R-wall in maint, granted in view of a camera, but a thermite beaker on the wall the camera is mounted to could solve that quickly.

Atmos is cramped with no room for projects.

It has the longest disposals ride of any of the stations. Disposals leads to the janitor closet, which has the grinder instead of cargo, into the atmos turbine area (????), then back to cargo. No mass driver or ejection system.

Not being able to really see into any departments sucks. Also the medbay doors are out of hearing range when you're standing in the treatment center, so I can never really tell when there are people waiting out there that need to be let in and treated.

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 5:57 pm Compare that to Birdshot, where despite having quite lengthy primary hallways, you can hardly peek into any department besides Medical (and even then, the busy parts of medical are in the interior). All the departments are tucked away and fully surrounded by maintenance leaving the station to feel a lot less communal.

I don't think there's really much too compare about the two maps outside of "they're maps designed to look run down".

That's the same issue I have with tram to be honest. It's amazing how big tram is but it always feels like there's way less people on than there actually is because the average crew member sees so little of departments. There's something satisfying about walking past a window and seeing people do stuff. It's weird, it's something I deeply enjoy in strategy games as well. It's part of the reason I like Delta, Metastation, and Icebox, you can walk the halls and see people doing stuff in their departments.

Kilo did have the issue of it being too easy to see murder happen because every department has massive windows but birdshot (and tram imo) has the opposite issue where it feels like all the departments are closed off little islands. This leads to the station feeling super empty even when there's 70 people crammed into it. I think stations need sections where antags can set up or crew members can merc each other but birdshot (and tram) go too far towards that direction IMO.

With Kilo, its maints look very run down but other than that most of the station looks fine other than some floors that can be cleaned by janitors (similar to parts of Delta and Meta stations). The difference is birdshot looks like the worst parts of Kowloon Walled City while Kilo looks like a well worn ship (or station in this case) that's seen better days but is still faring mostly fine. Birdshot is super messy and a dogshit map in terms of design but it does nothing with it. Birdshot's entire gimmick is "HAHA I AM A DOGSHIT MAP! LAUGH!" I have an issue with tram feeling like a gimmick but at least that gimmick works. Birdshot's gimmick is that it is a shit filled diaper and we're supposed to be impressed because it's proud of the fact that it is a shit filled diaper. I could theoretically see a crammed kowloon walled city style map working but birdshot just ain't it.

A map that is intentionally designed to be horrible to play and horrible to look at is funny like, three times tops. If you have to strongarm your playerbase with a horrid voting system in order to have it played more often nearly a year after it was added into rotation, you have a map problem, not a player problem.



I will give Birdshot props in that it makes me appreciate the other maps way more. Birdshot seems scientifically designed to have all the worst SS13 map design aspects crammed in. I'm impressed that the map author didn't go for having 17 z-levels or whatever to add rancid, expired icing to the sewage cake.