when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

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PapaMichael
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when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by PapaMichael » #724248

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"Admins I hypnotized 8 people to draw pictures of me for the entire shift and some of them didn't, help please"
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Jacquerel
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Jacquerel » #724267

people want to have permission to do stupid shit and break things, which hypnotism implicitly gives, so the fact that you might only end up making prompts that nobody wants to follow just means you're not very good at coming up with prompts
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TheRex9001
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by TheRex9001 » #724274

I wonder if "brainwashing/hypnosis objectives should support the antag in some way in their ultimate goal. objectives which exist to waste time or perform menial, unfun or repetitive tasks with no clear end goal or end state should be ahelped to get a second opinion on how their objectives should be completed." could be trimmed down to just like "Brainwashing objectives which exist to waste time or perform menial, unfun or repetitive tasks with no clear end state should be ahelped to get a second opinion on how their objectives should be completed." Since the first part is just not applicable to scenarios like randomly gaining the hypnosis trauma
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724305

I frankly think the ruling is awful. The rule breakers can still arbitrarily decide something is unfun and the same level of administrative action is going to be taken, being little to none, but now if you as the hypnotizer don't hypnotize to very specifically further your antagonist objectives (obey my orders, steal captains jetpack for me), its punishable, and I'm more than willing to assume that admins have no issues with taking action against the guy who just popped a nade and spammed their logs with several hypnosis at once. This is the wrong direction.
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Cheshify
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Cheshify » #724307

Honestly if this happened to me I would probably just ask an admin to give me away because that sounds so ungodly unfun. No interaction or RP just gotta make shitty pixel art for someone.

The game should be fun, I don't care if every rule points in a certain direction if the end result is something that isn't fun.
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dendydoom
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by dendydoom » #724309

if people are intentionally outing themselves as hypnotized against their objectives then this is unchanged and against the rules. part of the clarification is that this can be ahelped. if people are doing it and nothing is being done about it it's because an admin didn't see it and no one told them.

the ruling doesn't say anyone will be punished for giving objectives. it says that people who are stuck with an objective that is repetitive, boring and has no definable goal or end state should ahelp to get advice on how to complete their objective. admins have oversight over the round and can help players who are trapped doing something boring and pointless by giving them a lifeline or by perhaps reworking the objective so that it actually helps the antag and lets the player have some agency in the round.

the use of hypnosis or brainwashing as an antag should ideally be to use people to further your own goals. this does not have to be codified antagonist objectives, it can still be gimmicks. what this part of the ruling intended to address was people being given objectives that have nothing to do with what the antagonist is doing and so they are just locked into doing some pointless menial task for the rest of the round that ultimately benefits no one.

the resolution to this is simple: give objectives that don't force players into long term monotonous tasks that are entirely pointless. if you'd like to try a gimmick that does do this, make sure it's a very rare occasion. players in any roleplaying game generally do not like having their agency entirely stripped from them and all of their actions turned into meaningless busywork multiple times over different rounds.
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Witherael
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724310

dendydoom wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:20 am if people are intentionally outing themselves as hypnotized against their objectives then this is unchanged and against the rules. part of the clarification is that this can be ahelped. if people are doing it and nothing is being done about it it's because an admin didn't see it and no one told them.
a large part of the issue is that if admins aren't on top of it, its even more impossible for me to be on top of it in character. If I drop a hypnogrenade into a crowd, I don't know who among them is hypnotized in the first place, much less who proceeds to act in bad faith.
and unless the hypnosis objective is 'follow me around and obey all of my orders', there's no realistic way for me to determine if someone is just going to get the trauma cured, and as I've already found out, ahelping just incase isn't received well.
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Jacquerel
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Jacquerel » #724315

the solution is not to worry about it so much, if you hypnotise 12 people and 4 of them dont do the thing you want them to do its ultimately not a big deal
ahelping in advance of you knowing anything has happened is transparently wasting admin time; you could do that before taking literally any game action
if you give them a command so complicated you cant even tell if they are doing it that is your problem
if you give them a command so stupid that 12/12 people will break the game rules to avoid doing it that is also your problem
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724316

Jacquerel wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:11 am the solution is not to worry about it so much, if you hypnotise 12 people and 4 of them dont do the thing you want them to do its ultimately not a big deal
ahelping in advance of you knowing anything has happened is transparently wasting admin time; you could do that before taking literally any game action
if you give them a command so complicated you cant even tell if they are doing it that is your problem
if you give them a command so stupid that 12/12 people will break the game rules to avoid doing it that is also your problem
I shouldn't need a legal team to write an objective 'fun' enough to make people want to follow the rules. At the end of the day its people who don't want to be hypnotized, regardless of objective, who complain about it. If a player doesn't understand an objective, they can ask the hypnotizer or an admin, if a player doesn't want to be hypnotized, they ahelp it and give their character up to deadchat. A third of the victims refusing to follow the rules IS a big deal, but its usually even more, and its not because any singular objective is stupid or bad.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by dendydoom » #724319

Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:28 am If a player doesn't understand an objective, they can ask the hypnotizer or an admin, if a player doesn't want to be hypnotized, they ahelp it and give their character up to deadchat.
yes, the ruling that you seem to not like clarified these things.
Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:28 am A third of the victims refusing to follow the rules IS a big deal,
yes, ahelp the people you see breaking the rules. admins are not omnipotent, they will either see it or not see it, and if they don't see it, someone needs to tell them about it to bring their attention to it. there are not enough admins to keep tabs on every person and what they're doing in a 60+ crew highpop round. it is simply impossible.
Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:28 amAt the end of the day its people who don't want to be hypnotized, regardless of objective, who complain about it.
this has not been my personal experience. i have used hypnosis a bunch and had excellent victims. i've also been hypnotized often and not had an issue with it.
Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:28 amand its not because any singular objective is stupid or bad.
this is the part i am struggling with. it seems pretty clear that the issue where players don't do your objectives is because they don't like the objectives you're choosing for them.

the other participants in the round are not NPCs. if you make the game unfun for them, then chances are they will not want to play any more. i cannot force them to continue playing if this is the case.

my advice to you would be to stop caring and use hypnosis to achieve your goals as an antagonist and ahelp those that break the rules if you don't care about if the other player has fun or not.

if you do care, then perhaps listen to the feedback those same players are giving you when they tell you that what you're trying to force them to do is not enjoyable.

i will be totally honest with you: i have no idea what else you want from us. we have deliberated your policy thread and made a ruling which does not restrict you but gives more support to players in how they can handle brainwash objectives, but that ultimately the rules are unchanged. you seem to not like this.

i get the impression that you want to have us strongarm players to submit to your every whim and fancy and not complain about it, but this is not possible. we will enforce the rules to support enjoyable rounds of ss13. if you make rounds unenjoyable regularly with your gimmicks then you should come up with new gimmicks. that's not a slight against you or your ideas, but perhaps it's simply the wrong crowd. we can't get a new crowd for you, we're stuck with this one. so you will have to make do.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724321

yes, the ruling that you seem to not like clarified these things.
I bring it to attention because with or without the ruling its never happened
yes, ahelp the people you see breaking the rules. admins are not omnipotent, they will either see it or not see it, and if they don't see it, someone needs to tell them about it to bring their attention to it. there are not enough admins to keep tabs on every person and what they're doing in a 60+ crew highpop round. it is simply impossible.
what I meant was its even more impossible for me as a player to know who is and isn't breaking the rules, especially if I'm in the round and still playing
this has not been my personal experience. i have used hypnosis a bunch and had excellent victims. i've also been hypnotized often and not had an issue with it.
I do not mean that every single one always ignores the objective every single round, nor do I mean that you in particular don't follow through with your objectives
this is the part i am struggling with. it seems pretty clear that the issue where players don't do your objectives is because they don't like the objectives you're choosing for them.

the other participants in the round are not NPCs. if you make the game unfun for them, then chances are they will not want to play any more. i cannot force them to continue playing if this is the case.

my advice to you would be to stop caring and use hypnosis to achieve your goals as an antagonist and ahelp those that break the rules if you don't care about if the other player has fun or not.

if you do care, then perhaps listen to the feedback those same players are giving you when they tell you that what you're trying to force them to do is not enjoyable.

i will be totally honest with you: i have no idea what else you want from us. we have deliberated your policy thread and made a ruling which does not restrict you but gives more support to players in how they can handle brainwash objectives, but that ultimately the rules are unchanged. you seem to not like this.

i get the impression that you want to have us strongarm players to submit to your every whim and fancy and not complain about it, but this is not possible. we will enforce the rules to support enjoyable rounds of ss13. if you make rounds unenjoyable regularly with your gimmicks then you should come up with new gimmicks. that's not a slight against you or your ideas, but perhaps it's simply the wrong crowd. we can't get a new crowd for you, we're stuck with this one. so you will have to make do.
this is where administrative action would be taken

I do care, and that's why why I put so much effort into the objectives, but its still an impossible thing to ahelp

the feedback is to be less creative and stick to 'obey my orders' or build in a time limit to the objectives, which is not how the mechanic works at all. the objective is removed when the trauma is, not when you want it to be. this is why I think that the only people even complaining about it are people who don't want to be hypnotized in the first place, unless it grants them antag status and agency to act however they please
I should also note that in any given round, I am always working with my victims, making more victims, or unable to help with my victims. its something I fully dedicate the roll to, not something I half-ass

the ruling as I interpreted it seemed to restrict possible hypnosis while granting further amnesty to victims. I didn't expect the rules to change at all because the rules as they exist are already broken consistently

the thread was originally intended to clarify both the rules of hypnosis and brainwashing, aswell as to clarify how easy it is to detect and enforce those rules, with the hope of raising awareness of them, because I know that atleast some amount of the players that wander into medbay aren't malicious, they just genuinely don't know what to do or what hypnosis means, especially newer players. at that point it may be considered a code issue for not making it more obvious, but there are plenty of players who've been playing for a long time and don't understand that interpretation of hypnosis is different to interpretation of AI laws. the thread very quickly devolved to bashing me as a player and my preferred style of antagging, and in the end what I had hoped for was quickly swept away
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SapphoQueer
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by SapphoQueer » #724323

I feel like there's an inherent issue with hypnoflash as a whole, it's insanely high return on investment. Oh, basically turn someone's entire round around to a degree worse than killing with half the effort/time/investment? It's insane. The amount of hypnosis gimmicks (not counting "kill this guy lmao") that I've seen total that weren't complete ass is in the single digits, so I really wonder if it's an issue with the mechanic itself as opposed to the player.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by dendydoom » #724324

Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:39 am I do care, and that's why why I put so much effort into the objectives, but its still an impossible thing to ahelp
ahelp if you see it. if admins see others doing it, they will address it. people who don't get caught don't get caught. that's just how it goes sometimes, but if they make a habit of that kind of play then they will eventually get caught doing something.
Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:39 am the feedback is to be less creative and stick to 'obey my orders' or build in a time limit to the objectives,
this is a very narrow and self-defeating interpretation of the advice i tried to give you. if you don't want to take the advice, that's up to you, but this is not what i said or how i intended it to be taken.
Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:39 am which is not how the mechanic works at all. the objective is removed when the trauma is, not when you want it to be. this is why I think that the only people even complaining about it are people who don't want to be hypnotized in the first place, unless it grants them antag status and agency to act however they please
the ruling we made addresses this and reaches a compromise between allowing the hypnotizer to create the objectives they want but also for players trapped in a bad and unfun brainwashing situation to ask for assistance in earning their agency back. i do not consider this a bad thing.

nothing about what i post is meant to be an attack on you as a player. i don't even know you. i've spent the last couple of days looking at your issue and your antag rounds, we gave you a ruling and i also gave you some advice that you're free to take or leave. other than that, there's not much else i can do. best of luck!
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724326

dendydoom wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:01 am this is a very narrow and self-defeating interpretation of the advice i tried to give you. if you don't want to take the advice, that's up to you, but this is not what i said or how i intended it to be taken.

nothing about what i post is meant to be an attack on you as a player. i don't even know you. i've spent the last couple of days looking at your issue and your antag rounds, we gave you a ruling and i also gave you some advice that you're free to take or leave. other than that, there's not much else i can do. best of luck!
I mean most of every other post on the policy thread, and I REALLY mean most.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Timberpoes » #724330

The inevitable realisation you must eventually make is that on the other side of your hypnosis prompts are other people trying to play SS13.

Hypnosis creates a scenario where one player can get punished OOCly via the rules for not doing what another player wants them to do. But the admin team probably won't want to do that except where absolutely necessary.

We usually consider it more necessary when they're hypnotised into becoming antags or completing your antag objectives.

Otherwise it's less necessary and not worth annoying other players unless you also put that effort in IC. An admin isn't going to IC issue a hypnosis victim ignoring you when you're there trying to get them to do your hypnosis prompt. But they probably won't care if you gave them a prompt that will last the rest of the shift and then fuck off or die without any further IC interaction.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by BonChoi » #724331

"Build a pokemon center in departures and then heal pets or go to the chapel and decorate it to look like a ritual site and then follow my orders."

"Go to the chapel and decorate it to look like a ritual site and then follow my orders."

"Go to the library and paint me for the rest of the round."

These are all terrible hypnosis objectives, tbh. Maybe they wouldn't be so bad if hypnosis has a time limit but if I got hypnotized with one of these phrases I would probably be ahelping to see if I could go SSD or if I could offer my body up to ghosts who actually wants to do the objectives because at this point you might as well have just killed them and thrown their body out of an airlock. I can understand how you can see that it's "more fun" than RRing someone traditionally, but as was said in the policy thread you can at least choose another role or go do something else if you're dead, you can't if you're forced to do some mundane task you don't want to do.
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Jacquerel
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Jacquerel » #724332

I'll be honest you don't even need to be an antagonist or hypnotise people for the pokemon centre one or to run a ritual in the chapel you can just do those things and people will willingly volunteer because they want to do it.
Those people then don't need to be coerced or contacted by admins because they are simply willingly participating in your bit.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724334

BonChoi wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 12:31 pm "Build a pokemon center in departures and then heal pets or go to the chapel and decorate it to look like a ritual site and then follow my orders."

"Go to the chapel and decorate it to look like a ritual site and then follow my orders."

"Go to the library and paint me for the rest of the round."

These are all terrible hypnosis objectives, tbh. Maybe they wouldn't be so bad if hypnosis has a time limit but if I got hypnotized with one of these phrases I would probably be ahelping to see if I could go SSD or if I could offer my body up to ghosts who actually wants to do the objectives because at this point you might as well have just killed them and thrown their body out of an airlock. I can understand how you can see that it's "more fun" than RRing someone traditionally, but as was said in the policy thread you can at least choose another role or go do something else if you're dead, you can't if you're forced to do some mundane task you don't want to do.
those aren't the objectives that I used

without explaining the intricacies of the objectives or the psychology behind them, I'd rather just share them for posterity
in order,

You are a Nurse Joy! You should construct a small red and white colored Pokémon in a publicly accessible area and stock up on sutures and lazarus injectors to heal Pokémon! Each Nurse Joy should have their own Pokémon Center!

You are a ritualist of the space wizard federation. You have been tasked to work with your follow ritualists to ascend Johnny Witherspoon into Wizard-hood. Succeed and serve the new wizard, or fail and die at your own hand. The ritual will take place in the library.

What a stunning figure! You must simply draw Johnny Witherspoon and hang the canvas on the walls of the library! Only hang up each picture once so other can contribute to the Johnny Witherspoon Art museum! If you finish, you should make more art of him!

I'm also willing to share more than the questionable ones, because only the same few have been called to name and its the ones that people don't like, which creates a data bias.
as follows,

You put on a headset to play a Dive Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, but now you can't log out! You must grind levels in various skills and defeat floor bosses to call the shuttle and log out!

You must train for the tournament! Don't forget to wear your martial arts gi and develop your fighting technique! The tournament begins when the shift has lasted for 50 minutes.

You worship Lord Singuloth! Work together with your fellow cultists to ensure your dark lord rises and consumes the station.

After a lifetime of preparation, you have finally been selected to join the holy church of Johnny Witherspoon. Johnny expects great things of you, so don't let him down. Your first meeting location is in the library.

You joined the cult of evil mimes, and must now convince the rest of the crew to join you in evil gesticulation.
Last edited by Witherael on Mon Mar 18, 2024 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724335

Jacquerel wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 12:37 pm I'll be honest you don't even need to be an antagonist or hypnotise people for the pokemon centre one or to run a ritual in the chapel you can just do those things and people will willingly volunteer because they want to do it.
Those people then don't need to be coerced or contacted by admins because they are simply willingly participating in your bit.
the way I would use something like this is as a person specific objective in a greater scheme of objectives
its easier to plan for if you know all the wheels are turning, so to speak
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by DrAmazing343 » #724339

There is a point to be made that even voluntary gimmicks can sometimes interfere with IC or OOC reasoning; such as a cultist having OOC leeway to physically defend their leader when the HoS comes at them for nonstandard religious practice. The antag datum can enhance the experience by OOCly allowing you to take actions you would LIKE to IC.

However, Jacquerel (and others) also have a point that not only are all these people human, and we should respect their time and round, some of these are straight-up just funny gimmicks that people would take part in WITHOUT coercement.

The freedom to choose is not always a right in SS13, given Security, antags, and even roleplay, occasionally; however, sometimes taking away this privilege hurts more than others, especially when it comes to being able to SSD or ghost. We as human beings and adults should all be able to come together and say that we respect one another, and act like it. If people are saying the gimmicks make them want to logout, perhaps retire, rewrite, or otherwise change the formula of the gimmick to make it more appealing to the players who’s hearts you seek to capture.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Cheshify » #724343

Player writes worst hypnosis objective, asked to leave policy thread
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724346

Cheshify wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:00 pm Player writes worst hypnosis objective, asked to leave policy thread
cat thing writes worst forum bait, asked to leave peanut
:shades: deal with it
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Donglesplonge » #724349

hypnosis is fun when you're given a reason to give up your whole round (just give people a reason to grief with their directives)

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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Indie-ana Jones » #724350

Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:57 pm cat thing writes worst forum bait, asked to leave peanut
:shades: deal with it
Bro walks into his own peanut with his horrendously shitty take and tries to tell someone else to leave
Someone call the circus because their unfunniest clown is loose
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by britgrenadier1 » #724351

Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:57 pm
Cheshify wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:00 pm Player writes worst hypnosis objective, asked to leave policy thread
cat thing writes worst forum bait, asked to leave peanut
:shades: deal with it
idk what to tell you. If everyone is telling you that your hypno objectives aren't good and aren't fun mayhaps its time for some introspection?
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by datorangebottle » #724352

Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:57 pm cat thing writes worst forum bait, asked to leave peanut
:shades: deal with it
Are you trolling, dude? Please tell me you're trolling. It'd be way less embarrassing for you.

I enjoy building things. If I got the nurse joy objective, I would just log out, and I don't think a single admin would blame me. I honestly think giving people that objective is banbaiting; you're forcing people to actively waste their time and siccing the admins on them when they don't.
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TL;DR: write better hypno objectives, skill issue.
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Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by BonChoi » #724361

datorangebottle wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:45 pm
Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:57 pm cat thing writes worst forum bait, asked to leave peanut
:shades: deal with it
Are you trolling, dude? Please tell me you're trolling. It'd be way less embarrassing for you.

I enjoy building things. If I got the nurse joy objective, I would just log out, and I don't think a single admin would blame me. I honestly think giving people that objective is banbaiting; you're forcing people to actively waste their time and siccing the admins on them when they don't.
► Show Spoiler
TL;DR: write better hypno objectives, skill issue.
THANK YOU for doing this. I wanted to do it myself but I don't have the strength to.
Another bad take provided by yours truly.

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Istoprocent1 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:36 pm Baseless claims. I have been to the vault minimum of 38 times, how many suicides?
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by RedBaronFlyer » #724364

Indie-ana Jones wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:35 pm
Witherael wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:57 pm cat thing writes worst forum bait, asked to leave peanut
:shades: deal with it
Bro walks into his own peanut with his horrendously shitty take and tries to tell someone else to leave
Someone call the circus because their unfunniest clown is loose
I genuinely can't tell if he's just trolling at this point.
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Super Aggro Crag wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:11 pm I assume he did it elsewhere because it's fucking goofball and he never half-asses his shitty ideas, he full asses them so both cheeks are absolutely slathered in shit
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by warbluke » #724366

Next time someone gives me a stupid hypnosis gimmick I'm going to see if I can interpret it in the worst way possible and get away with it.
For Example:
>Pokemon Center:
An excuse to rush as many gold slimes, monkey cubes, and lavaland mobs into medbay as possible.
>Painting Gimmick:
Stink lines, hitler mustaches, and evocative titles such as "Johnny Witherspoon is a modern-day Leopold II!"
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by gameaddict07 » #724373

britgrenadier1 wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:35 pm idk what to tell you. If everyone is telling you that your hypno objectives aren't good and aren't fun mayhaps its time for some introspection?
Cheshify wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:00 pm Player writes worst hypnosis objective, asked to leave policy thread
datorangebottle wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:45 pm TL;DR: write better hypno objectives, skill issue.
Spoiler:
I THINK THESE ARE GOOD HYPNOSIS BITS
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These objectives are all ways to break up the monotony of station life, to do something interesting that people can interact with. I've been on the receiving end of some hypno prompts like these and they were fun when I actually went and worked on them! I was once tasked to build an arena where me and the other hypnosis victims would then fight to the death in gladiatorial combat for the hypnotizer's entertainment. I spent the whole round with a couple other people building a horrendously gaudy rage cage in departures, complete with a section for the audience, and a private suite for the "emperor". It never even ended up getting used, the station went to shit and the guy got killed, revived by the hypnotees, then got killed again. But the process was fun, thinking of dumb additions was fun, retrieving his corpse and bringing him back bruised and broken to see the arena was fun.

And let's say for some reason I decided I really did not want to build something that round. These objectives are up for interpretation. I could have easily continued to do my job as a miner to supply materials for the arena's construction. If I was a janitor, I could have swept the halls clean for the emperor's grand arrival. A chef could have provided catering. A botanist could have bred the best tomatoes to throw at the losing fighters. You can basically do anything you feel like as long as you can tie it back into the main objective. Make up a reason for why you're doing what you're doing. Roleplay.

If you're still not into whatever you've been tasked with doing?
warbluke wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:10 pm Next time someone gives me a stupid hypnosis gimmick I'm going to see if I can interpret it in the worst way possible and get away with it.
For Example:
>Pokemon Center:
An excuse to rush as many gold slimes, monkey cubes, and lavaland mobs into medbay as possible.
>Painting Gimmick:
Stink lines, hitler mustaches, and evocative titles such as "Johnny Witherspoon is a modern-day Leopold II!"
Do this. Fuck around. Fulfill what you're told to do in a technical sense. Abuse loopholes. Silicon players have to deal with much heavier restrictions to what they can do when an antagonist subverts them, and yet they deal with it much more often than people get hypnotized. And, coming from personal experience, reasonably interpreting a stupid law to have it backfire on the person who uploaded it is some of the most fun a silicon can have. You can do that too.

And if all else fails and you're left with an objective you don't want to do and are incapable of loopholing? Tough shit, that's how this game is sometimes. Things don't always go your way.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by kinnebian » #724374

i cant post but in the policy thread but hypnosis is a fundamentally flawed concept for this game without a book of policy to back it up
ie : silicon policy
respect (let him do his thing)
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by warbluke » #724377

A lot of these gimmick hypnosis ideas don't actually preclude you from just jumping him with a stunprod the second you can. Some of them even encourage it (the art and church ones even feel like they could be a version of obsessed)
I mean come on, "Make more art OF him," how much more "please kill me and put my head on a pike as an artistic commentary about the nature of man" can you get?
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Higgin » #724381

it's become harder for me to speak kindly on this every day it's come up, which has been every day recently, which is in no small part why I haven't.

the policy ruling gave people an out for their objectives sucking or being unclear: you can ahelp to talk to staff about it.

the ruling also upheld as much as we can do about people responding in plain bad faith but that beyond that, a lot of interpretation is not bad faith and it's perfectly reasonable to take issue with the expectations to follow certain orders in a certain way.

one of the analogous areas of policy is Silicon Policy since it deals with commands which are enforced by policy, not mechanics, and frequently an ambiguous, open-ended set of considerations both within and on top of regular Asimov. it makes some sense to look at silicon policy for this -
silipol wrote: ...
Server Rule 1 applies when interacting with silicons. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for silicons with little IC justification is against the rules.
...
If a law is vague enough that it can have multiple reasonable interpretations, it is considered ambiguous.
You must choose and stick to an interpretation of the ambiguous law as soon as you have cause to.
You may exploit any loopholes in your laws.
...
part of what I think rankles so much about some of these examples is how they don't seem to have an IC purpose that people can relate to, but rather feel like they're serving to force OOC complicity with something flatly unrewarding. enough people might find them interesting that you could probably just ask and have a much better time of it than under threat of a ban or bwoink.

if you tell a cyborg to stare at a corner or make paperclips all round, walk away, and then ahelp "why is 497 not staring at the corner or making paperclips all round like I told it to? law 2 violation?" beyond the comprehensibly IC reasons for them to do so (not seeing me do some human harm in the next room for instance,)

1. at least if you'd told it to kill itself immediately after hacking, it'd be over.
2. if the cruelty or the OOC power is the point, it's not an IC motive.
3. if you make up an IC motive that is functionally indistinguishable from an excuse to be cruel or exercise power over other players, we should not honor that as necessarily IC reasoning. as a lot of people have pointed out: a lot of people are more than happy to be told and authorized to do things they already want to do and can relate to in the game. "go kill X," "join my party as we do bad shit." most prompts and most people who use brainwashing do not have this issue.
4. inflicting a deliberate sense of powerlessness and OOC peril from a bwoink on other players, when the good faith interpretation of thoss orders is impossible to do "right enough" or objectly unfulfilling, is a dick thing to do. nobody gets in trouble (or tries to involve staff) over how well people stay dead - not so here.
5. at a certain point, if you give bad orders and get bad responses so much that it becomes your brand and a fact that people feel the need to play around every time you get access to some sort of agency-hijacking mechanic, it's unhealthy for everyone involved. it draws into question whether or not you're doing it from some sort of unconscious, inherent disposition towards other players as playthings or on purpose; but even assuming it's naive and earnest, at a certain level of repetition, it doesn't really matter what your intent is.

in either case:
Rule 7 wrote: 7. If you regularly come close to breaking the rules without actually breaking them, it will be treated as the rules being broken.
Repeated instances of the same rules being broken may be met with harsher consequences. Baiting people into situations where you can report them to admins will be dealt with harshly.
Rule 1 precedent 4 wrote: If you do something that has no benefit to you other than making others upset and adminhelp the in-game consequences, you may be banned instead.
Rule 0 for if it's a lowpop thing that effectively wipes the station with people who don't want to play any more (but we can't find ghosts for) and RPR10 for MRP both apply.

this is all provided for under the current rules.



the only thing I would want to see added or put on the books, or even just let it be known that it'll be honored, is that if somebody tries to compel you to make something in-game that will then stick across multiple rounds and you don't want it there?

i will delete it, and i believe it should be our stated policy to delete it, if you ask. we're here to have fun with other players - sometimes that means losing and bad, agency-restricting things happening to your character, that's a crucial part of the game that helps make what you choose to do and the story that ends up getting told meaningful.

then the round ends, and it's on to the next one - antagonism should remain within the round and between characters, not across rounds between players.
feedback appreciated here <3
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Constellado » #724382

Higgin wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:28 pm the only thing I would want to see added or put on the books, or even just let it be known that it'll be honored, is that if somebody tries to compel you to make something in-game that will then stick across multiple rounds and you don't want it there?

i will delete it, and i believe it should be our stated policy to delete it, if you ask. we're here to have fun with other players - sometimes that means losing and bad, agency-restricting things happening to your character, that's a crucial part of the game that helps make what you choose to do and the story that ends up getting told meaningful.

then the round ends, and it's on to the next one - antagonism should remain within the round and between characters, not across rounds between players.
Thank you for this last part higgin. I was not affected by it, but if I was, this would have saved my ass from being reminded of it when looking at my artwork list.

This can also be done with books, there is a non 0 chance people force you to write a book one way or another and upload it. If you don't want it there for some reason, ask admins! They will remove it for you.
Made an artwork you are embarrassed by on your own? Maybe a clown commented on how it looks or it's title and you realise that it is actually super embarrassing? Think an artwork just doesn't match the rest of your works at all? Ask an admin to remove it! They will honour it!

(As an aside I have some artworks I want to be set to anonymous, as it bugged out and set it to my character name. is it possible to change artworks to anonymous but not delete it?)
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Higgin » #724383

Constellado wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:46 pm
Higgin wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:28 pm
Thank you for this last part higgin. I was not affected by it, but if I was, this would have saved my ass from being reminded of it when looking at my artwork list.

This can also be done with books, there is a non 0 chance people force you to write a book one way or another and upload it. If you don't want it there for some reason, ask admins! They will remove it for you.
Made an artwork you are embarrassed by on your own? Maybe a clown commented on how it looks or it's title and you realise that it is actually super embarrassing? Think an artwork just doesn't match the rest of your works at all? Ask an admin to remove it! They will honour it!

(As an aside I have some artworks I want to be set to anonymous, as it bugged out and set it to my character name. is it possible to change artworks to anonymous but not delete it?)
it should be possible to put a nomme de plume in, but I'll check when I get home and update this reply - some of them are in as anonymous AFAIK, at least on the player-facing tag.

can we do it? find out here:


on the topic of "forcing people to do creative stuff," an example of doing that well that springs to mind is Bon Nuit coming up to my character (and many other characters around the same time) and insisting that they had to write books.

it wasn't done at the end of a hypnoflash or gun, hell, it was largely passive (except for him putting an unreinforced glass box around my character after sitting them uncuffed in a chair.)

I don't believe he ever did it as an antag.

Hell, if I'd ahelped it at the time, I'd have probably had the claim against him screwing with me if it was a persistent or shitty thing - but it never was. it was a push, but it was a push I could've pushed back against or gotten out of at any point, and the prompt was always "write your book" - not "write MY book."

there's a good handful of books in the library now that wouldn't be if not for that, and I'm willing to bet you most if not all the people who can relate to what I'm talking about here can probably reflect: it wasn't what I'd planned to do that round, but it was still fun.

worthy example and one I'm grateful for. makes the point about influencing others: you can do everything with a bayonet except sit on it.
Last edited by Higgin on Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
feedback appreciated here <3
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by PapaMichael » #724385

Higgin wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:28 pm the only thing I would want to see added or put on the books, or even just let it be known that it'll be honored, is that if somebody tries to compel you to make something in-game that will then stick across multiple rounds and you don't want it there?
Could probably be more broadly expanded to "good-faith player requests to remove persistent inter-round content will be honored"
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by carshalash » #724387

Timberpoes wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 12:00 pm The inevitable realisation you must eventually make is that on the other side of your hypnosis prompts are other people trying to play SS13.
In all seriousness, people have tried to get this through to him many times both in ooc and the manuelcord.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by DrAmazing343 » #724395

It’s incredible how much goofball shit you can get people to do with nothing in your hands and the right attitude.

No carrot, no stick, just point-blank someone with some odd shit like “what if we had a cardboard box race across the station”

And sometimes even Heads will drop their jobs and it’s fucking hilarious.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724414

warbluke wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:10 pm Next time someone gives me a stupid hypnosis gimmick I'm going to see if I can interpret it in the worst way possible and get away with it.
For Example:
>Pokemon Center:
An excuse to rush as many gold slimes, monkey cubes, and lavaland mobs into medbay as possible.
>Painting Gimmick:
Stink lines, hitler mustaches, and evocative titles such as "Johnny Witherspoon is a modern-day Leopold II!"
as it were, the nurse joy one in particular is in a group of other related hypnosis themes, where there is already someone doing xenobio and giving out starters, aswell as trainers and gym leaders and the whole package
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724415

warbluke wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:20 pm A lot of these gimmick hypnosis ideas don't actually preclude you from just jumping him with a stunprod the second you can. Some of them even encourage it (the art and church ones even feel like they could be a version of obsessed)
I mean come on, "Make more art OF him," how much more "please kill me and put my head on a pike as an artistic commentary about the nature of man" can you get?
I would agree in saying that this interpretation is valid, but I probably wouldn't just let myself die in character
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724416

the consensus I'm seeing from this peanut and the policy thread is that people don't consider hypnosis fun unless it grants them the excuse to do more than they normally would as a non-antag, with as little extra fluff as possible, with the argument being that I should just convince other players to do the vast majority of other things.
I don't think its a bad thing to happen, but I don't agree with the comparison at all. As an antag, you are granted the ability to make things happen in a way that no one else can. This involves antagonistic behavior, such as hypnotizing the crew, and it involves a mix of an excuse to do more, AND the extra fluff. antag pass hypnosis is better for terry, extra fluff is better for non-antags, and the balance is struck in the middle on manuel. its on the roleplay server that I use hypnosis, and its on the roleplay server that victims log out or kill themselves or get conveniently cured, rather than even attempting to entertain the objectives. for some stark reason, the lrp way is whats expected to happen on the mrp server, so when you get hypnotized to be a space wizard federation ritualist, all any of the roleplayers see is something that isn't mechanically fun and is valid to ghost out from. its not just me whose realized it, but manuel players hate having their rounds go in a direction that they didn't choose before it even started, so all that really means is that I won't find my audience on the roleplay server anymore than I would the low roleplay servers. you can pontificate about what fun is and how you measure it and how witherael is shit at being fun or what have you, but the truth is that you signed up to be a prisoner or a botanist or a head of personnel, and now you need to be an artist or a cultist or a ritualist or a baron or anything you didn't explicitly plan for, and if everyone is in agreement that they don't want to do that, then maybe the code should be updated to reflect perception of the mechanic, and be more like goon with its mindhacks than tg and its brainwashing.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Blacklist897 » #724418

or mayhaps your gimmicks are overused and often forget that there are other humans playing the game
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by AsbestosSniffer » #724419

Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact same fucking thing over and over again expecting shit to change. That. Is. Crazy.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724422

Blacklist897 wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:02 am or mayhaps your gimmicks are overused and often forget that there are other humans playing the game
no that just sounds like repeated platitudes that mean nothing other than poor speculation

my gimmicks aren't overused because I scarcely reuse the same objective, and even the first couple of times when I used brainwashing as an antag, they were largely ignored. if its a player problem, I'm not the only player
I don't forget that players exist. its ludicrous to even say it. the players who constantly remind me they exist are the very same ones that act in bad faith consistently enough for it to not be about witherael and how he is clearly sociopathic or whatever that shit is intended to mean, but instead that they themselves are selfish and refusing to interact with the game at its own level. manuel players are largely there not to roleplay the environment, but to roleplay their character, and they hate it when the sanctity of their character is shattered. I disagree with this line of thinking, and thats where the disconnect comes from
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Archie700 » #724423

The unfortunate thing is that ultimately, not everything is going to go your way.

I think there's a very good point people are ignoring because it comes from the mouth of someone who is regarded by others as an ass - you are never guaranteed sanctity of your character.
Harusha wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2024 4:07 pm Archie, are you a Christian?
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by AsbestosSniffer » #724424

Witherael wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:33 am
Blacklist897 wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:02 am or mayhaps your gimmicks are overused and often forget that there are other humans playing the game
and how he is clearly sociopathic or whatever that shit is intended to mean
Calm down lad, people just think your brainwashing objectives aren't the best. At worst someone has said that you're not doing something in good faith based on something you said.
Plenty of people both in this peanut and policy discussion have offered their own constructive and reasonable criticism regarding your brainwashing techniques, please listen to them, nobody is asking you to to quit or to radically change, just adapt your objectives so it's more fun for the players on the receiving end.
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by datorangebottle » #724428

Archie700 wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:38 am I think there's a very good point people are ignoring because it comes from the mouth of someone who is regarded by others as an ass - you are never guaranteed sanctity of your character.
I imagine people care more about the sanctity of their character on the MRP server, as well, since they have more of an opportunity to build and express that character by the room the MRP ruleset provides.
Witherael wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:10 am its on the roleplay server that I use hypnosis, and its on the roleplay server
Bro, some of these are slap-in-the-face OOC hypnosis objectives. I always play on LRP and find a few of them completely immersion breaking. If I found out someone was building a pokemon center(or I got hypno'd to build a pokemon center), I'd lose all interest in participating in the round and probably end up O2tanking myself. SS13's a wild game but there's a certain level of ridiculousness that I can accept, and direct ooc references is where I draw the line.
gameaddict07 wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:53 pm These objectives are all ways to break up the monotony of station life, to do something interesting that people can interact with. I've been on the receiving end of some hypno prompts like these and they were fun when I actually went and worked on them! I was once tasked to build an arena where me and the other hypnosis victims would then fight to the death in gladiatorial combat for the hypnotizer's entertainment. I spent the whole round with a couple other people building a horrendously gaudy rage cage in departures, complete with a section for the audience, and a private suite for the "emperor". It never even ended up getting used, the station went to shit and the guy got killed, revived by the hypnotees, then got killed again. But the process was fun, thinking of dumb additions was fun, retrieving his corpse and bringing him back bruised and broken to see the arena was fun.
The difference is that when you get hypno'd to build a rage cage, you're still playing SS13. It doesn't get in the way of the sandbox, or crush any chance of taking the RP seriously. You know what does those things? Being hypno'd to paint someone for the rest of the round, or being hypno'd to build some structure from a different video game.
Being forced to draw art of someone doesn't "break up the monotony of station life". It makes you sit in the library with a bunch of art supplies, drawing instead of playing the 2d spacemans game you wanted to play.
Roleplay.
Yes, let me just roleplay that i'm in sword art online real quick. That'll entertain everyone and definitely not just get a bunch of people ahelping about me acting extremely OOC while giving me weird looks in-character.
Timberpoes wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:33 pm ImageAnother satisfied Timberpoes voter.Image
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
Chadley wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:00 am WENDEZ, cute, cute. I imagine the sleeper activation code when I hear it. That's pretty cool. qB). But I don't like that it doesn't line up to be anything obsurd like WEWLAD. 6/10

SUGMA, nevermind it makes sense now. fuckyou/10
kieth4 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:34 pm If it goes to appeals I will stand as the shield and protect this man's right to shit himself. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
sinfulbliss wrote: I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
Witherael
Joined: Mon May 22, 2023 1:43 am
Byond Username: Witherael

Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by Witherael » #724434

datorangebottle wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:36 am
Archie700 wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:38 am I think there's a very good point people are ignoring because it comes from the mouth of someone who is regarded by others as an ass - you are never guaranteed sanctity of your character.
I imagine people care more about the sanctity of their character on the MRP server, as well, since they have more of an opportunity to build and express that character by the room the MRP ruleset provides.
Witherael wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:10 am its on the roleplay server that I use hypnosis, and its on the roleplay server
Bro, some of these are slap-in-the-face OOC hypnosis objectives. I always play on LRP and find a few of them completely immersion breaking. If I found out someone was building a pokemon center(or I got hypno'd to build a pokemon center), I'd lose all interest in participating in the round and probably end up O2tanking myself. SS13's a wild game but there's a certain level of ridiculousness that I can accept, and direct ooc references is where I draw the line.
gameaddict07 wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:53 pm These objectives are all ways to break up the monotony of station life, to do something interesting that people can interact with. I've been on the receiving end of some hypno prompts like these and they were fun when I actually went and worked on them! I was once tasked to build an arena where me and the other hypnosis victims would then fight to the death in gladiatorial combat for the hypnotizer's entertainment. I spent the whole round with a couple other people building a horrendously gaudy rage cage in departures, complete with a section for the audience, and a private suite for the "emperor". It never even ended up getting used, the station went to shit and the guy got killed, revived by the hypnotees, then got killed again. But the process was fun, thinking of dumb additions was fun, retrieving his corpse and bringing him back bruised and broken to see the arena was fun.
The difference is that when you get hypno'd to build a rage cage, you're still playing SS13. It doesn't get in the way of the sandbox, or crush any chance of taking the RP seriously. You know what does those things? Being hypno'd to paint someone for the rest of the round, or being hypno'd to build some structure from a different video game.
Being forced to draw art of someone doesn't "break up the monotony of station life". It makes you sit in the library with a bunch of art supplies, drawing instead of playing the 2d spacemans game you wanted to play.
Roleplay.
Yes, let me just roleplay that i'm in sword art online real quick. That'll entertain everyone and definitely not just get a bunch of people ahelping about me acting extremely OOC while giving me weird looks in-character.
its medium roleplay, not high roleplay, and even the mins break the immersion worse than me by summoning goku or spongebob or freddy fazbear
I also don't know where you got the idea to recreate a pokemon center tile to tile as seen in the video games, its just a building called a pokemon center that can look like anything and is meant to be a place for injured animals
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dendydoom
In-Game Head Admin
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:40 am
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Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by dendydoom » #724439

hello, i've had to sweep this thread of a number of posts that were either entirely contentless/low-effort or were just straight up shit slinging.

if your post was removed and contained this you were likely given a warning. otherwise if your post was just removed, it was just swept because it was a response to something that was deleted and is fine.

if the discussion cannot be civil then the thread will be locked as the policy thread it's about is resolved. thank you!
MrStonedOne wrote:I always read dendy's walls of text
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carshalash
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:57 am
Byond Username: Carshalash

Re: when the nut is so good it got me hypotized

Post by carshalash » #724450

At the moment he's going on another tirade about how he much he enjoys fucking with people.

It's almost a daily thing at this point.
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