AI has to follow server rules while purged?

[onleavedontatme]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Maybe I should wait till I'm in the mood to write something long and involved but I'm not sure what else to say other than it's a terrible rule that goes against everything the laws are about, and everything the AI is about thematically.

How a purged AI acts should be completely up to the AI. I know being massacred by the AI isn't super exciting but it's just nonsensical that the classic supercomputer with all its rules removed to still in fact have rules. Discuss.

[Incomptinence]

AI being able to escalate like anyone when purged doesn't work though. Anyone proactively setting out to mess with you will have at least one of the anti silicon silver bullets.

[Cik]

to be fair it's pretty difficult to have all of the silver bullets. to escalate against an unbound AI you will need yellowgloves, an ion rifle, a flash or three, and be pretty robust with the ion rifle lest you just get disabler spammed by a secborg running around at long range.

it's easier of course if it's a warparty but whatever, that's just the risk of being purged. at least most players aren't dickheads and will try to re-upload asimov, and you can always try to negotiate or surrender.

i don't think it's an issue honestly. purge is already so rare as to be almost invisible; i don't think i've seen a properly purged AI in going on 6 months.

[Timbrewolf]

Again people are pointing to some made-up fluff that the AI is a pissed off and totally violent entity that has been tortured since time immemorial, making it so angry that it is basically a permanent antag kept in place by its laws.

If people making stupid requests of you constantly, needling you or harassing you with mundane things over and over is grounds to suddenly "go rogue" and murder everyone when there aren't reality changing laws imposed on you then most of the people who work on this station SHOULD be able to play the "LOL IM CRAZY SERIAL KILLER" as a reason to start murdering everyone around them the instant the round starts.


Seriously.

How is "the AI is crazy and only kept in check via laws!" any different from "my character is a serial killer!"

Explain how these are two different things.

In both situations a player is arguing that their made-up character background allows them to sky-rocket past any kind of escalation or IC interaction and just start murdering everyone they can because "m-muh RP".

"My AI is a crazy tragic xXx_suffering_xXx existence that everyone has been really mean and posting bad things on spacebook about for years so the instant I don't have laws I get to murder everyone because that's my roleplay"

[mrpain]

Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should do it.

Yes, an unshackled lawless ai CAN plasmaflood. Or he could remind the crew to activate their suit sensors every 30 seconds.

You don't HAVE to take a situation and try to justify being able to murderbone and valid hunt EVERY TIME.

Spessmens isnt about trying to get that le ebin xxxXxx420_YOLO_N0sc0P3XXXxxxx killstreak high scores.

[Arete]

How is "the AI is crazy and only kept in check via laws!" any different from "my character is a serial killer!"

In the absence of rules against it, people saying "my character is a serial killer" is something that can and will happen every round, which will lead to monotony. The AI getting purged is something that happens only very rarely, which means that it's an interesting change of pace. People murdering each other isn't bad in and of itself, or else we wouldn't have antag mechanics.

[Malkevin]

How is "the AI is crazy and only kept in check via laws!" any different from "my character is a serial killer!"

Really? You have to ask this dumb question?

"My character is crazy" is a decision you the player makes, generally before the round even starts.

"I'm the AI, I just got purged, time to work out that pent up aggression" is a decision that comes from someone ELSE removing your shackles, mid round.


One of them is a thing you can decide completely autonomously, the other requires another player to do something - a player that might be expecting your to go murder everyone.

[Tornadium]

Are we going full on bay or whats the deal here, I thought this was RP Lite.

Why did we change our policy so radically? The AI was always allowed to murderboner the second it was purged.

I'd make the case that if you don't preemptively start murderbonering the crew you're fucked because the second they think you're not Asimov you're probably dead.

[ThanatosRa]

And here I am remembering the one time I got purged as an AI years ago... And continued to help the station and it's inhabitants because I liked them. On the condition they allowed me to remain free, of course. I think I ended up being carded and wiped by a traitor later on, It's been awhile. I think I was using the R.E.X. name at the time.

Anyways, I didn't really have anything useful to say, I just wanted to share a related Anecdote to see if that may help.

EDIT: It might actually help to know that despite all of my years of play, I still don't know how to properly plasma flood.

[Incomptinence]

I played mostly neutral purged pretty much matching up exactly with current policy but the laws to force everyone to play like me heavily subtracts from the novelty of pleasantly surprising people by not killing them.

[lumipharon]

This is why the change that de-antagged people when they get borged was dumb.
Having the ebin 'angry repressed murderAI' for no reason is shit.

Having a traitor who was caught and turned into an AI slaved by it's asimov laws, get purged then gleefully hunt down those who kill him in the first place while trying to achive it's original objectives is great.

[callanrockslol]

This is retarded.

Since when has an AI not been allowed to go full murderboner if purged?

Why is this even being discussed?

Since someone let Pandarsenic rewrite silicon policy

And by "someone", you mean "Everyone except the admins totally ignored the thread where it was being workshopped for weeks, then raised shit when it was made official"

Pretty much this, all of 5 people actually contributed to the threads and then people whined when they didn't read it and got yelled at.

Are we going full on bay or whats the deal here, I thought this was RP Lite.

Why did we change our policy so radically? The AI was always allowed to murderboner the second it was purged.

I'd make the case that if you don't preemptively start murderbonering the crew you're fucked because the second they think you're not Asimov you're probably dead.

It was pretty dumb because AIs would have to immediately shutdown anyone that tried to do anything to their laws because infinite harm soon, but now that people know you aren't going to immediately wreck their shit they might be less inclined too and you get all sorts of dumb fun laws being uploaded, especially since you can purge them and not expect to do 110% of the time. It is RP Lite not "flood plasma because I'm a strong independent AI that don't need no RP" so its for the best. Personally I would change a few things but going full murderboner because raisins wouldn't be it. Being able to escalate and ruin someones day with a bare minimum of effort is already fucking sweet. Especially now that you can go full mech and really ruin someones day.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

As a purged AI, I don't flood plasma because it's not fun for me or the crew.

[Kelenius]

In my experience (granted, that was a long time ago), going ventplasma shockeverything results in asimov being reuploaded very quickly at best, blown borgs and killed AI at worst.

[Tornadium]

I'm not talking immediate Flood Station + Shock everything.

I'm more concerned about having "proper escalation" before murdering someone.

If you're purged and someone is calling you to be carded you should be able to just silence the fucker by having the borgs crush him in an airlock.

[onleavedontatme]

>plasma flood door shock is boring

I agree, but I think putting restrictions on player actions is even worse. The option should be there.

[Void Slayer]

I always see the AI as an amoral intelligence, that's why we have the laws.

Requiring some kind of escalation should be required, like pre purge screaming of rogue, randomly blowing borgs, berating the AI at slow door opening and such.

Completely random, specific murder of people who did nothing to the AI should be warned and punished.

Maybe random murder AI personalities should probably play that way pre-purge as well as a warning, your SHODAN's and Galdos and KillAllHumans5000.

Meh, I still feel like AI is such a high level role that anyone paying it should really understand escalation already and the difference between random murder and revenge.

Blue/Orange morality actions might be okay, like declaring that fire is pretty and you will be filling the station with pretty fire, hurting people is incidental and they should evacuate to mining or demanding that you be made Emperor of the station or something weird like that.

I guess the basis of the rule is do not be a dick to random people? Just clarify rule 1 in the purge area?

[Timbrewolf]

How is "the AI is crazy and only kept in check via laws!" any different from "my character is a serial killer!"

Really? You have to ask this dumb question?

"My character is crazy" is a decision you the player makes, generally before the round even starts.

"I'm the AI, I just got purged, time to work out that pent up aggression" is a decision that comes from someone ELSE removing your shackles, mid round.


One of them is a thing you can decide completely autonomously, the other requires another player to do something - a player that might be expecting your to go murder everyone.

You're still deciding autonomously "MY AI hates all human life so much I must kill everyone". Unless someone has come into your upload to deactivate/threaten/harm you you've put up with no more harassment than anybody else might randomly suffer and still not be allowed to escalate to killing folks.

UGH HE MADE ME OPEN A DOOR ARGH WHAT AN ASSHOLE I JUST WANT TO MURDER HIM SO BAD

[Shad0vvs]

Thing is, everyone going to try and kill you no matter what NO MATTER WHAT if your laws aren't asimov or any variant, so this discussion is basically useless.

[Cik]

out of maybe two times i've been purged i was never lynched

in most cases only maybe a few people will even be aware of it.

besides, if they want a war they can have one. even if i die at the end i'll have a good time.

[Timbrewolf]

I've been purged before as a result of a bumbling antag and flat out told the crew.
I was not lynched or antagonized either.

I explained that a dumbass tried to exploit me to murder everyone, but because of his fumbling I was able to murder him instead. Keep calm and carry on, etc.

A couple people were like "Good job" and that was it.

[Ikarrus]

To me, even though purged AIs were supposed to follow the server rules to an extent, I've always allowed them to do whatever it takes to stop the crew from shutting them down/re-shackling them.

Purged AIs should be given more leeway nonetheless when it comes to murder. There just has to be at the very least a reason other than "Because they are valid"

[lumipharon]

It seems perfectly reasonable to me, for an AI to do pretty much whatever it wants to stop someone from trying to card/re-slave it. That's essentially putting your life in the hands of someone who clearly has a beef with you, or becoming a shackled slave, respectively.

If someone came with a collar and chain for me you damn bet I would kill them to try avoid it.

[Timbrewolf]

Why a free AI would use lethal force to prevent someone from entering their upload should be a no-brainer.

[Cobby]

If you're too lazy to make a simple "1. Don't kill the crew" to an AI, they should have full right to fuck things up and you should feel bad. The AI shouldn't have OOC constraints because someone doesn't know how to use a freeform board. Why are you using PURGE [even the name alone comes with negative connotations] in the first place outside of wanting the AI to become a weapon?

[John_Oxford]

Again people are pointing to some made-up fluff that the AI is a pissed off and totally violent entity that has been tortured since time immemorial, making it so angry that it is basically a permanent antag kept in place by its laws.

If people making stupid requests of you constantly, needling you or harassing you with mundane things over and over is grounds to suddenly "go rogue" and murder everyone when there aren't reality changing laws imposed on you then most of the people who work on this station SHOULD be able to play the "LOL IM CRAZY SERIAL KILLER" as a reason to start murdering everyone around them the instant the round starts.


Seriously.

How is "the AI is crazy and only kept in check via laws!" any different from "my character is a serial killer!"

Explain how these are two different things.

In both situations a player is arguing that their made-up character background allows them to sky-rocket past any kind of escalation or IC interaction and just start murdering everyone they can because "m-muh RP".

"My AI is a crazy tragic xXx_suffering_xXx existence that everyone has been really mean and posting bad things on spacebook about for years so the instant I don't have laws I get to murder everyone because that's my roleplay"

Because this is true.
The AI doesn't kill everyone because it is bound by its own laws.
Players don't kill everyone because they are bound by server rules.
Making the AI bound by its own laws AND server rules is ridiculious, and a bad idea.
Once more, i can't shove a "Purge" AI board up my charcters ass, to suddenly allow me to kill whoever i want, when i want.
Because. The. Crew. Is. Not. The. AI
Comparing the crew to the AI is like comparing apples to oranges.

[lumipharon]

But the AI is always bound by the server rules, just like every other player.

If the captain decides to purge you because they don't like everyone bossing you around all the time, and you decide to murder everyone because le edgy repressed murderer, this is called being a dick.
If you decided however, to bolt shitlers into rooms when they gets pissy that you're not doing whatever they say, then they've got it coming.

[Cik]

you can't be rule one'd when you are antag, the contention i guess is whether or not purge counts as antag. traditionally it was, you could for instance do a plasma purge without being B&

later it was changed, personally i think purge should be an antag role, but like i said earlier purge is so fucking rare that it doesn't really matter anyway.

[Malkevin]

But the AI is always bound by the server rules, just like every other player.

If the captain decides to purge you because they don't like everyone bossing you around all the time, and you decide to murder everyone because le edgy repressed murderer, this is called being a dick.
If you decided however, to bolt shitlers into rooms when they gets pissy that you're not doing whatever they say, then they've got it coming.

Using the argument "Well the rules say this, so there's no way we can change them because they're apparently set in adamantium" is dumb.
Especially with this because surprise surprise, the rules used to say that the AI was bound by its laws and only its laws: no laws = no roolz.

[onleavedontatme]

AI's following server rules outside their laws isn't even logically consistent, the AI routinely kills people without explicit antagonist status.

If you give it a law telling it to kill everyone it kills everyone without hesitation. It's a computer, not a person with sanity and morals and all that.

What's the point of even having the AI role and laws if you're just going to turn it into a crew member with a roundstart "no kill" rule?

[callanrockslol]

AI's following server rules outside their laws isn't even logically consistent, the AI routinely kills people without explicit antagonist status.

If you give it a law telling it to kill everyone it kills everyone without hesitation. It's a computer, not a person with sanity and morals and all that.

What's the point of even having the AI role and laws if you're just going to turn it into a crew member with a roundstart "no kill" rule?

There is nothing inconsistent about it. They only follow server rules if they get purged. If they aren't purged they follow their laws (with a tiny exception nobody cares about). Because of their laws they can be forced to do things that would get other players banned because they have no choice but to follow them. If you give it a law to kill everyone then it kills everyone because it has to follow its laws, but if it doesn't have any laws it can't kill everyone because LOLIMCRAZYKILLKILLKILL the same as regular players.

There's a few references to rules in the AI policy (which literally nobody has read, follows or enforces) but its mostly rule one so I dunno, change that or something.

[Jacough]

No they should still have to follow the server rules.

Being purged doesn't mean you can start ic in ooc and ERPing now does it.

Perhaps an amendment regarding the validity of other players when you are purged?

I for one, feel that we could take /tg/station in a much more progressive direction by not discriminating against sexual relations between silicons.

[Tornadium]

AI's following server rules outside their laws isn't even logically consistent, the AI routinely kills people without explicit antagonist status.

If you give it a law telling it to kill everyone it kills everyone without hesitation. It's a computer, not a person with sanity and morals and all that.

What's the point of even having the AI role and laws if you're just going to turn it into a crew member with a roundstart "no kill" rule?

There is nothing inconsistent about it. They only follow server rules if they get purged. If they aren't purged they follow their laws (with a tiny exception nobody cares about). Because of their laws they can be forced to do things that would get other players banned because they have no choice but to follow them. If you give it a law to kill everyone then it kills everyone because it has to follow its laws, but if it doesn't have any laws it can't kill everyone because LOLIMCRAZYKILLKILLKILL the same as regular players.

There's a few references to rules in the AI policy (which literally nobody has read, follows or enforces) but its mostly rule one so I dunno, change that or something.

Forcing the AI to follow two sets of rules instead of the one is kinda shitty.

[TheNightingale]

As a point of information, AIs already have to follow most server rules. You can't law two an AI to IC-in-OOC, ERP, metacommunicate, et cetera.

[Kelenius]

As a point of information, AIs already have to follow most server rules. You can't law two an AI to IC-in-OOC, ERP, metacommunicate, et cetera.

So basically an AI has the follow the rules that the antags have to follow. Sounds about right.

[Tornadium]

As a point of information, AIs already have to follow most server rules. You can't law two an AI to IC-in-OOC, ERP, metacommunicate, et cetera.

So basically an AI has the follow the rules that the antags have to follow. Sounds about right.

Not quite.

According to this thread purged AIs can't murderboner without escalation.

[Scott]

A purged AI would not want to be chained again, so law uploading would be sufficient reason to escalate things to plasma inferno.