Yet another policy thread: Allowable non antag crime

[damiac]

Sorry for all the threads, but it seems like this needs to be discussed:

What crimes are currently allowed OOC for a non antag?

These are all assuming that these things aren't happening constantly, just once in a while.

Non-harmful assault: E.g. pushing someone over(or slipping them), cuffing them, dragging them around. At what point does this sort of behavior become admin-helpable?
Non-critical burglary: E.G. taking the insulated gloves off the guy I just pushed over. Basically stealing non-dangerous, non-greentext items.
Non-critical B&E: E.G. breaking into engineering to steal the insulated gloves, but fixing the door behind myself. Not counting the brig/captain's office/armoury here.
Non-harmful vandalism: basically, the same as above, but I don't fix the door.
Non-burglary captain's office B&E: Where I break into the captain's office (fixing all doors behind me), use the ID and console to give myself all access, but leave the ID where I found it.

Semi-harmful assault: E.G. beating a guy up, but not into crit.
Semi-harmful vandalism: E.G. forcing open the engineering door, and bolting it.
More semi-harmful vandalism: E.G. releasing a small amount of nitrous somewhere, only enough to cause laughing, and not passing out.
Silly non-harmful AI law uploads: E.G. 'The clown is hilarious, not laughing at the clown's jokes is harmful to humans'

As clown on other servers I've played on, I usually like to try to get all access, as listed above, then do various pranks, like stealing runtime, disguising myself, and basically being a non-harmful nuisance (Meaning, I like to get sec to chase me around, but not actually mess up people's round). I don't want to get myself in trouble though, so I'm trying to get clarification on where the line is drawn between IC and OOC crime.

Also, are the rules any different for Assistants vs clowns vs regular crew?

[Raven776]

There are three things to think about when committing a crime as a non-antag.

1: Did you roleplay/escalate properly?

If it comes to beating someone up, things need to meet a natural progression. Pushes to punches to toolboxes to bottles with both sides involved in escalating. This shows that not only you on an OOC level approve of the fight but the person you're fighting as well. If someone just sits there as you punch them, you're going to get bwoinked. If you get knocked down harmlessly, cuffed, and thrown out and you keep coming back for more into this guy's workplace, there's a good chance you'll get bwoinked too.

2: Does it ruin someone else's time?

This is the big one, and it's also the hardest to figure out. Releasing nitrous randomly might seem harmless if you do it in moderation, but that is a bitch to clean up and can get an atmos tech lynched. Beating someone into crit and leaving them in the medbay might seem non-harmful but you don't know what this other person might be doing. If you leave a shocked door/grill/machine exposed, you're going to have an especially bad time before that's fixed. Demoting someone can be an example of this if they actually didn't do anything, and stealing someone's ID card can be a HUGE example of this.

3: Were you a dick?

Rule 1, don't be a dick. This extends from IC interactions to ahelps to forum ban appeals. Explain what you were doing, why you were doing it, what you could have done better, and how you had expected/hoped things to play out. If at any point you start insulting admins who are just trying to get the best grasp on the situation or anything like that, you're going from 'Hijinks' to 'appeal on the forums.'

There is no black and white 'what is and isn't allowed' here because the game allows for too many options for anything to be pinned down.

[Psyentific]

There is no black and white 'what is and isn't allowed' here because the game allows for too many options for anything to be pinned down.

See above, basically.

Mutual escalation is the gateway to pretty much everything, though non-antag murder is usually pretty bad.

[imblyings]

are you causing severe impairment to someones enjoyment of a round

examples include,

killing someone
straitjacket muzzling someone and leaving them in maint
bombing a place as a non-antag
continuously and seriously harassing (eg. attacking them, stealing from them, damaging their workplace) someone for no raisin
taking comms or the gravgen offline, shitty tcomms scripts seem to be handled IC via lynching

not-examples include,

any theft
most break-ins, apart from the armoury or AI chamber, although the armoury one is handled IC because sec can kill anyone who enters it no questions asked.
minor sabotage like bolting open a door

no differences between clowns, assistants, regular crew

knowing the state of our current administration though, it might be extended to any time you don't act like a perfect stepford spessmen

[bandit]

There are three things to think about when committing a crime as a non-antag.

1: Did you roleplay/escalate properly?

If it comes to beating someone up, things need to meet a natural progression. Pushes to punches to toolboxes to bottles with both sides involved in escalating. This shows that not only you on an OOC level approve of the fight but the person you're fighting as well. If someone just sits there as you punch them, you're going to get bwoinked. If you get knocked down harmlessly, cuffed, and thrown out and you keep coming back for more into this guy's workplace, there's a good chance you'll get bwoinked too.

2: Does it ruin someone else's time?

This is the big one, and it's also the hardest to figure out. Releasing nitrous randomly might seem harmless if you do it in moderation, but that is a bitch to clean up and can get an atmos tech lynched. Beating someone into crit and leaving them in the medbay might seem non-harmful but you don't know what this other person might be doing. If you leave a shocked door/grill/machine exposed, you're going to have an especially bad time before that's fixed. Demoting someone can be an example of this if they actually didn't do anything, and stealing someone's ID card can be a HUGE example of this.

3: Were you a dick?

Rule 1, don't be a dick. This extends from IC interactions to ahelps to forum ban appeals. Explain what you were doing, why you were doing it, what you could have done better, and how you had expected/hoped things to play out. If at any point you start insulting admins who are just trying to get the best grasp on the situation or anything like that, you're going from 'Hijinks' to 'appeal on the forums.'

There is no black and white 'what is and isn't allowed' here because the game allows for too many options for anything to be pinned down.

We can lock this thread now. (Also, this should be common sense.)

[Timbrewolf]

You're asking people to quantify the infinite here.

"What is the list of all things that I can do without getting in trouble?"

We'll be here for the rest of eternity and fill up all the space on every server describing every permutation of infinity+1. Nobody can really provide you with the list you're asking for, and anyone who starts listing single actions as okay to do is going to be here for the rest of their life.

[QuartzCrystal]

It should go without saying, but if you break the rules (or regularly come very close to breaking them i.e. “toeing the line”), you will be warned, muted, banned, or talked about rudely.

The reason a lot of things are explicitly made clear of what is allowed and not allowed is that if some players know which line they cannot cross absolutely, they will toe it incessantly and when bwoinked respond with "BUT I HAVEN'T BROKEN THE RULES!!!".

[damiac]

No, I didn't mean to ask what I can do without getting in trouble, to be honest, I think my questions have been answered pretty well. I just wanted to make sure it was ok to be a petty criminal, I certainly don't think it's ok to beat people into crit or mess up anyone's round

[Timbrewolf]

Ohhhh I see.

Check spacelaw and look for things that aren't capital crimes. Prettymuch all of those should be resolved IC unless there's extenuating circumstances. Some of the Capital crimes are still IC situations as well, depending on the circumstances.

Of all the "crimes" randomly murdering another players is an action that'll very likely result in an admin contacting you. And like Quartz said, if all you do is accrue a laundry list of offenses every single round you play without doing anything else you'll probably end up getting booted for being a griffin.

[Raven776]

It's good to note that I've been allowed to steal all of the capitol offense items and start a black market trade in maint before, admins said it was okay so long as I understood just how fucked I would be if/when security caught me.

[Psyentific]

It's good to note that I've been allowed to steal all of the capitol offense items and start a black market trade in maint before, admins said it was okay so long as I understood just how fucked I would be if/when security caught me.

You can steal every single item on the station, high value or not. You can roll assistant, steal the entire robotics/R&D setup, steal all the boards from tech storage, steal cloning, steal cryo and the sleepers, steal botany, kitchen, bar, chemistry, and the all access to work it all. Admins probably won't give a shit unless or until you murder someone 4nr, or use that stealing and resulting escalation to murder someone. They also probably won't give a shit unless you make it a habit; Try not to make high crime for its own sake a habit. Nobody likes that one guy that goes for the spare ID at round start every time.

Standing rules is that breakins are valid for everything short of murder.

Breaking in is fine.
Stealing things is fine.
Breaking in and stealing everything is fine.
Breaking in and stealing everything, then stuncuffdisposal'ing the guy when he gets mad is also fine, looking at you Bryce Pax ban.
Breaking in and stealing everything again, then murderspacing the guy because he's mad that you dunked him is bad; That falls under killbaiting.

Breaking in to the brig with no provocation is bad - This falls under greytiding, and makes you valid salad for whatever security wants to do and will probably net you a ban.
Breaking in to the brig with prior provocation is a bad idea, but probably not bannable.
Deliberately sabotaging the brig is probably also a bad idea - Odds are whatever grievances you have are with one member of security, not the whole department and whoever else wanders in.

Bombing, virus releases, singularity releases, disposals to space, plasma fires, gas floods, and other acts of grand high fuckery are absolutely no-go as non-antag.
Special cases: bombing and multiple nuke ops in the blast, bombing and rogue/malf AI; Both of these are usually okay, but you're still going to be on the hook, so to speak.

Sabotage as non-antag, in general, is a bad idea. Shockbolting the main hallway doors might get you bwoinked, might not, but it'll definitely get you lynched, brigged, or shat upon.

As a blanket rule, Space Law is an IC issue while server rules are an OOC issue; Security handles one, Admins handle the other. You already know that it's considered very poor form to mix IC and OOC.
As general advice, try and let people do their job. If you need healing, breaking in to a fully-staffed medbay is not the answer. If someone's gunning for you, PDA'ing a few security goons is never a bad idea.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

It's a very bad idea to discuss something like this. When people know they can do something bad and get away with it, boy they're gonna do it a lot.

[damiac]

I know, people knowing the rules is likely to cause them to act within those rules! THE HORROR!

Anyway, what I was asking has been answered pretty well, although it'd be nice if an admin would confirm the answers.

Essentially, you can occasionally be a pretty bad criminal, stealing, hassling people, and everything, but no killing, and as long as it really is only once in a while, it's considered IC.

For more regular behavior, you can do pretty much all the non harmful crime you want, so long as you're not negatively impacting anyone's round.

So, it's fine at any point to go breaking and entering into anywhere but AI upload and brig, so long as you're not making a big mess for anyone.

You cannot in any way imply other people should do any of this stuff IC though, that's greytiding and bannable.

Do I pretty much have that right?

[Kuraudo]

You can steal every single item on the station, high value or not. You can roll assistant, steal the entire robotics/R&D setup, steal all the boards from tech storage, steal cloning, steal cryo and the sleepers, steal botany, kitchen, bar, chemistry, and the all access to work it all. Admins probably won't give a shit unless or until you murder someone 4nr, or use that stealing and resulting escalation to murder someone. They also probably won't give a shit unless you make it a habit; Try not to make high crime for its own sake a habit. Nobody likes that one guy that goes for the spare ID at round start every time.

Standing rules is that breakins are valid for everything short of murder.

Breaking in is fine.
Stealing things is fine.
Breaking in and stealing everything is fine.
Breaking in and stealing everything, then stuncuffdisposal'ing the guy when he gets mad is also fine, looking at you Bryce Pax ban.
Breaking in and stealing everything again, then murderspacing the guy because he's mad that you dunked him is bad; That falls under killbaiting.

Not true. From the recents events, you can get banned for: Stripping the Captain of his ID, murderboning as a traitor, B&E as an assistant in the bridge to recarpet the area, and many other things that will make you go; "Wait, what ?!"

[Konork]

Not true. From the recents events, you can get banned for: Stripping the Captain of his ID, murderboning as a traitor, B&E as an assistant in the bridge to recarpet the area, and many other things that will make you go; "Wait, what ?!"

In order, stripping the Captain of his ID close to him joining the game while he was having connection issues, excessive murderboning that pissed the host off and got removed pretty quickly anyway, and breaking and entering the bridge to recarpet it as an assistant with two other assistants after getting bwoinked for what looked like inciting greytide also not a ban.

[Psyentific]

You cannot in any way imply other people should do any of this stuff IC though, that's greytiding and bannable.

Do I pretty much have that right?

Not precisely. It's perfectly okay to conspire to commit crimes. When those same crimes cross other boundaries is a no-go.
Breaking into Medical to steal medicine, or breaking into chemistry to make space lube will probably get the CMO/Chemist to aggro you, but the admins won't care.
Getting your buddy to help you break into chemistry to make space lube will probably get the chemist to aggro you, but the admins will only care if you violence him or if it's a problem over multiple rounds.
More clearly, if you make it a habit to form an angry mob, expect to get banned. We have an entire game mode dedicated to forming an angry lynch mob, so try and keep it there.
As general policy, Space Law is entirely in-character; Admins don't enforce it.

Part of the reason grey tide is so hard to nail down is that it's hard to define; It's a pattern of behavior and/or a personal playstyle, rather than a specific event. Good rule of thumb to follow is try not to screw other people over, and, when you inevitably do, realize how it happened and try not to do it again.

[Kuraudo]

Not true. From the recents events, you can get banned for: Stripping the Captain of his ID, murderboning as a traitor, B&E as an assistant in the bridge to recarpet the area, and many other things that will make you go; "Wait, what ?!"

In order, stripping the Captain of his ID close to him joining the game while he was having connection issues, excessive murderboning that pissed the host off and got removed pretty quickly anyway, and breaking and entering the bridge to recarpet it as an assistant with two other assistants after getting bwoinked for what looked like inciting greytide also not a ban.

And ? Still not rule breaking behaviour.

[Konork]

Not true. From the recents events, you can get banned for: Stripping the Captain of his ID, murderboning as a traitor, B&E as an assistant in the bridge to recarpet the area, and many other things that will make you go; "Wait, what ?!"

In order, stripping the Captain of his ID close to him joining the game while he was having connection issues, excessive murderboning that pissed the host off and got removed pretty quickly anyway, and breaking and entering the bridge to recarpet it as an assistant with two other assistants after getting bwoinked for what looked like inciting greytide also not a ban.

And ? Still not rule breaking behaviour.

Again, in order, major dickish behavior along with (possibly accidently) abusing an OOC issue in order to do so, actually not against the rules which is why it got removed pretty much right away, and ignoring warnings from the admin to not start shit as an assistant and then getting caught on the bridge after breaking and entering also still not a ban

[damiac]

Being admingibbed is essentially a ban from the round in most circumstances, but that's kind of aside from the point of the thread anyway.

I think I pretty much get what's considered 'acceptable behavior'. I was hoping an admin would come in here and confirm or deny Psyentific's list, but oh well.

Basically, I'm working under the assumption that basically what Psy said is right, and I'll at least get a warning if I'm just doing that kind of stuff before anything bad happens to me.

For example, I was playing a round, and was RPing a Nitrous addicted janitor. I released tiny amounts of nitrous from a tank, making my character laugh and fall down a lot. Later that round the clown came and opened the valve up all the way, creating a big problem. I got a warning from Saeg not to do it anymore, so fine, I won't do that. That's fair, so long as nobody else is allowed to do that either.

[Hornygranny]

You're not going to get written confirmation that specific crimes are fair game. We can't make that kind of judgement in the absence of context, and there are people who capitalize on that kind of ruling. If you want to play on the safe side, don't do anything that will make someone's round worse.

[damiac]

While I think you guys are a bit wacky with refusing to explain what's allowed and what's not, most of the time what I think is OK seems to line up with what the admins think is OK. And so far, when it hasn't, I was informed and allowed to not do that thing anymore.

It's just that I've played on servers where committing any crimes at all while not antag could get you in big trouble. I almost got banned over breaking into the teleporter room as a non-antag.

How about this for a specific example though: I was clown in a round over the weekend, and the mime stole my ID and ran off (This was after he had already attacked me and pushed me over and such). Was the mime allowed to do that? Should I have adminhelped?
Shortly after, he gave it back, so no harm done. I decided to ask the HOP for sec access, and for some crazy reason he gave it to me! GO HONKURITY!
My plan was to gear up, and go take revenge on the mime with retroactive charges of assaulting an officer, and lock him up for 5 minutes, and possibly also steal some of his mime stuff. Would this have been ok? (Unfortunately, I never saw the mime again, and ended up being a somewhat helpful member of security by random chance)

[Hornygranny]

I personally think stealing someone's ID for no reason is a rule 1 violation, and it's been treated that way in the past. Your plan for revenge sounds fair to me.

[damiac]

Good to know, thanks HG.

He returned the ID pretty quick, and in fact, he stole it at HOP line, so it was easy enough to replace, so I'm glad I didn't adminhelp that particular instance of ID theft.

[Timbrewolf]

You're not going to get written confirmation that specific crimes are fair game. We can't make that kind of judgement in the absence of context, and there are people who capitalize on that kind of ruling. If you want to play on the safe side, don't do anything that will make someone's round worse.

This. Anyone says "Yeah running up to people and pickpocketing them isn't bannable" and it's going to cue a spree of everyone fishing in eachother's pockets like it's a handjob convention to the tune of THE ADMINS SAID IT WAS OKAAAAAAAY.

EDIT: Make that a handjob trade show.

Sounds funnier.

[Screemonster]

Another thread linked to Paradise's wiki and they've got a thing to cover this reasonably well:

While petty crimes and theft are acceptable if it fits your character, if you are not an antagonist, actions such as subverting the AI, stealing high value items such as the Captain's ID, mutiny, and other actions that could lead others to believe you are antagonists are not to be done. It is not your job to add to the chaos and treachery of the station - that's the antags and/or GM's job. While there is no absolute way to be clear what is and isn't self antagging, as always, if in doubt, adminhelp, and if an admin tells you to desist, do so at once.

basically don't be that guy who breaks into the cap's office as an assistant round after round for all-access regardless of whether they're antag or not, and if you are looking to run a gimmick or whatever just ahelp it, it's literally a button-press.

[Void Slayer]

The biggest thing about non antag crime is that when people try and stop you, it is not okay for you to use that as justification for escalation. Too often I have seen people break in somewhere then when someone attempts to throw them out they behave as though the guy had attacked them randomly in the hallways.


Stealing the captain's ID as a non antag is shitty. If you want all access, play the HoP or captain. They have access because they have responsibilities.