Banned for ghosting as an antag

[oranges]

So I was sitting in #banbus minding my own business when a player comes in complaining about being banned for ghosting as an antag after being caught?

Admin PM from-Tedward1337:
The round isnt over. The shuttle hasnt been called. You
ended your own round because you got taken into cuffs.
This is awfuly behavour, and Im banning you from antag,
and the game for a while.


I'm as confused as SOS, since when have we been placing bans on people for this behaviour? I don't think it's fair to remove a persons right to leave the round if they don't like how it's playing.

03:17 <@scaredofshadows> I wouldn't normally place such a ban unless this was
repeat behavior
03:17 < tedward1337> Well SoS
03:17 < tedward1337> its not suicide
03:17 < tedward1337> he ghosted in cuffs
03:17 < tedward1337> while sec was dealing with it.


Am I reading too much into this, or is this a new policy that has sprung up, and if so, can we have some discussion on it?

[Intigracy]

Suicide is functionally the same as ghosting except with suicide you can get back in the round if they debrain you.

Banning him for ghosting after being caught doing antag stuff is stupid.

[Spacemanspark]

While it's annoying when they do it, this shouldn't be bannable.

[Fatal]

Question?

Was he a team based antag, such as cult or rev that could have been converted? Or simply another kind of antag who simply ended his own round after rage quitting over being caught?

[lumipharon]

That is the big question. If you ghost out as a captured rev/cultists, you're essentially saying fuck you to sec, as they are possibly wasting implants/holy water on a comatose person, as wel as denying them an extra loyal person, and whatever info they might have. Any other antag doesn't matter, although ghosting instead of gibbing as an op would be pretty retarded.

[Intigracy]

That actually is relevant to discussion.

If it's something like being caught trying to kill someone as traitor, that's one thing.

If it's ghosting to prevent from helping sec during rev, that's complete bullshit.
You can't deconvert cultists.

[Spacemanspark]

That actually is relevant to discussion.

If it's something like being caught trying to kill someone as traitor, that's one thing.

If it's ghosting to prevent from helping sec during rev, that's complete bullshit.
You can't deconvert cultists.

Holy water deconverts cultists.

[lumipharon]

The other time when ghosting is pretty gay, is when someone wants to sac/shard/malfborg you, as it's just dicking over the person that killed/caught you.
Also yeah, cultists have been deconvertable for ages now.

[Intigracy]

Learn something new every day.

[Timbrewolf]

Suiciding/ghosting when caught is goofy. I don't think it should be against the rules but we should try to discourage it since it's a light roleplaying game and it's very spoil-sport behavior. It's mildly annoying to everyone else when you slap the cuffs on someone and they immediately break immersions by saying "FUCK THIS", or somesuch, and going catatonic. But still, unless it's something they do all the time every time it shouldn't be a huge deal.

Even in a teambased antag role I don't think it really ruins anything for your teammates, Nuke Ops spawn(ed) with cyanide pills explicitly so they could quickly kill themselves if it looked like they were going to be captured.

I don't think tedward made a good call in immediately jumping to PM him.

There's extenuating circumstances here in that in the conversation that followed talking about the potential ban he was incredibly belligerent in PM's and on IRC, ultimately ending the conversation by saying:

<hatman> no way, I explained the situation and if you make poor admin decisions again, not going to entertain this anymore, I just made a new byond account and connected on sybil. Screw this.

...which was obviously quickly caught ban evading and perma'd.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Admin-helping

Spells it out. Even if you're right about something, if you can't communicate that without being hostile or antagonistic you're likely going to get in some sort of trouble. We make it a point to maintain a professional attitude in PM's and official channels. If you can't manage to do the same and start pushing the conversation into shittalk territory and making wild accusations about conspiracies or whatever we're just going to turn you out. At the end of the day we're people too.

In summary

Tedward goofed pm'ing a player
That player went overboard, as they tend to do
Rather than continue to hash it out they decided they'd just evade the ban
They got caught evading the ban.

I can't help but think that if Tedward hadn't PM'ed them in the first place none of this would've happened.
Unfortunately now we're in a situation where Hatman went beyond the situation and broke bigger rules.

[miggles]

since when has there been any sort of ruling against killing yourself as antag, in any situation?
its unfortunate and not fun for anyone, but as an antag you're given the right to do pretty much whatever the hell you want. i've seen wizards kill themselves at roundstart just to fuck with people and get away with it. ghosting while in cuffs is only bad to the people who arrested them, and that's only because it's less satisfying to beat them later.
like, what? is this antag going to contribute significantly to the round after being stuck in perma to the point that removing that possibility is worth a ban?
i don't think this behavior (on tedward's part) should be overlooked just because the player later evaded the ban. it was a horrible ban in the first place. when has there ever been a precedent for bans like this? what is the reason behind it, even?

[Saegrimr]

People seem to keep leaving out that he ghosted out of being de-converted as a rev. Nobody wants to waste holy water/implants on people who are just gonna ghost out of spite anyway.

This is also 100% the best way to get me to not permaban you. This was on his second account while already evading.

Reply PM from-***: Ok lets do it this way, you people drop that silly antag ban I got today (for not breaking any rules btw) or I make another account, this time with VPN tunnel, which gets around the IP ban.

[mrpain]

What's wrong with wanting to see the rest of the round play out while in perma? Some people want to play while in perma, some dont. Staying in the same place for upwards of 30-60 minutes for many people is boring. Banning people for wanting to observe the round while in perma is terrible and needs to stop right now.

[kosmos]

Suiciding/ghosting when caught is goofy. I don't think it should be against the rules but we should try to discourage it since it's a light roleplaying game and it's very spoil-sport behavior. It's mildly annoying to everyone else when you slap the cuffs on someone and they immediately break immersions by saying "FUCK THIS", or somesuch, and going catatonic. But still, unless it's something they do all the time every time it shouldn't be a huge deal.

How else do we discourage that kind of behavior other than bans? If we want to discourage it, we handle it like we handle shitlers; give them a warning, let them know that's poor sportsmanship and harsher punishments if that doesn't work.

[paprika]

I agree with the antag ban.

Here's the skinny: Admins should never force people to play when they aren't having fun, but fuck you if you're going to be a rev and cause chaos and kill sec and then not want to play as a de-converted/implanted rev. That's half the gamemode. Fuck ghosting shitters. Saegrimr is completely right here, it upsets the balance of the gamemode.

Also oranges is complaining about nothing, he doesn't play security and admitted this. Nobody should be allowed to share their opinion on this unless they play security regularly because the ONLY people this dicks over is security.

[Steelpoint]

Loyalty Implants/Holy Water are generally very limited in numbers thus they are a rare resource.

Using your rare resource on someone you've captured, which is a large task onto itself depending on the skill of the rev/cultist, only for them to ghost when they've lost their antag status, is extremely annoying at the best of times and crippling (if not game ending) at the worst.

I don't mind if a traitor or another non-team based antag ghosts, that actually saves my time. It's when you deconvert someone to bring them onto the station's side is where a problem arises.

Kill yourself before you get captured, not after.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

It's mildly annoying to everyone else when you slap the cuffs on someone and they immediately break immersions by saying "FUCK THIS", or somesuch, and going catatonic.

I never understood this attitude. They basically apply capital punishment to themselves (even worse, they cannot break out of perma/get cloned, there is no way for them to go back).

Even in a teambased antag role I don't think it really ruins anything for your teammates, Nuke Ops spawn(ed) with cyanide pills explicitly so they could quickly kill themselves if it looked like they were going to be captured.

This got me thinking. Do be actually need the ability for players to immediately ghost? It essentially prevents anything where you keep your victim alive for fun. Suicide is still an option, but it doesn't work when restrained. I guess there would be a problem of continuous knockout from some chemical or something, or straight jacket, but still. Or put ghosts who ghosted while still alive (and not in crit) in the end of a queue for anything that requires a random ghost, like wizard apprentice, syndieborg or aliens.

[leibniz]

People seem to keep leaving out that he ghosted out of being de-converted as a rev. Nobody wants to waste holy water/implants on people who are just gonna ghost out of spite anyway.

This is also 100% the best way to get me to not permaban you. This was on his second account while already evading.

Reply PM from-***: Ok lets do it this way, you people drop that silly antag ban I got today (for not breaking any rules btw) or I make another account, this time with VPN tunnel, which gets around the IP ban.

I was told they were a traitor in the round of the ban.

[Wyzack]

Does anyone else think it is kinda shitty to ban this guy, and then make a rule about it after the fact? Like is he still guilty in this case? What he did was shitty, but a simple antag ban should have been enough, considering there is no policy currently that says what he did was wrong

[Intigracy]

Suicide right before conversation or deconversion has always been enough to net you an antag ban.

I was under the impression he was a traitor though from the OP.

[Wyzack]

I thought so too, but Saeg said it was rev, and he ghosted pre deconversion. If an antag ban was already the standard for this infraction, then why the regular ban too? This is not the first time it has been determined that Tedward is a bit too banhappy

[Saegrimr]

There's been some miscommunication, as I was just going off some short comments made in the IRC. He was in fact just a normal traitor and not a rev.
If it WAS rev i'd support this 100% but I really can't get behind this, yeah it sucks for the officer who now has to find something to do with a catatonic after his murderspree but theres really not much left after that.

My end on the involvement is his ban evasion, and i'll stick by that even if the initial ban is crap since he's already made it perfectly clear he's willing to evade bans he doesn't agree with rather than making a thread about it.

[bandit]

What is, practically speaking, the difference between someone ghosting as caught traitor and someone immediately switching the tab and doing something else?

There is none. So are we going to enforce that people "check in" every few minutes that they are still alive and not quasi-braindead as well?

[QuartzCrystal]

Euuuuh. I think it's total shit and I've been one of the voices in adminbus trying to hash out an actual rule about this (like, at least fucking wait until you're thrown into perma or something, as a cop if I arrest a traitor red-handed I always try to have a fun interrogation with them). But we don't actually have a policy hashed out on this except about serial behavior so this ban was out of line.

[NikNakFlak]

Yes, I pulled the logs and investigated this entire thing. It was a regular traitor. Do not get things mixed up here. Also noting, the ban was applied for a rule 1 reason along with a combination of things with sos's permission. Following this, said player evaded and got caught and perma'd. This ban was not 100% specifically for ghosting, it was being a dick as well, that was taken into account. Besides pulling the logs, and finding the second account, everything I got was told to me by ted and scardey. I also personally do not care about ghosting as a traitor. I see it all the time with caught traitors. Not everyone does it, some do, some dont.

[Malkevin]

If it WAS rev i'd support this 100% but I really can't get behind this, yeah it sucks for the officer who now has to find something to do with a catatonic after his murderspree but theres really not much left after that.

I personally like to play the watermelon game on the vegetable's head, and anoint my holy baton in unholy griffen blood.
Then I tie their meat pile to a chair behind the first set of brig doors.

The only problem with ghosting is that Carn implemented it really really badly. I remember we had to basically twist her arm to get her to make catatonics fall over (I'm pretty sure there wasn't even a unique exam description at first), but theres still very little visual feedback that someone has ghosted - especially if they're already stunned or tied to a chair/bed.
The biggest issue that vegies still count as alive humans, so the AI often gets in a tissy if you use them to decorate the brig.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now the question of if someone should be banned for ghosting when caught should be answered by the following process:

Should they get a ban?
1. Is the person an antag or a greytider?
If they are a grey tider they should be banned if they are repeatedly ghosting after getting caught, as they should be banned if they are prolific grey tiders.
If they are an antag go to 2.

2. Is this person a proper antag (traitor/revhead/nukeop/ling/wizard) or are they a converted antag (flashed rev / cultist)?
If proper antag then no
If converted antag go to 3

3. Did they ghost before they were cuffed?
If before - don't ban
If after go to 4

4. Did they ghost whilst cuffed but before being implanted/fed holy water?
If before - don't ban unless it becomes prolific that they do so just as they're about to be deconverted.
If after go to 5

5. Did they ghost after they were implanted/fed holy water? (i.e. deconverted)
If after - ban them, always.

[Malkevin]

As for the ban:

Is it really ban evading when the ban itself was illegitimate?
Theres actually a huge part of Common Law going back as far as the Magna Carta that a person is perfectly in their rights, and bystanders are within their rights to assist, to violently resist a false arrest to the extent of even killing the arresting officer.
Thats murdering another human being because they were oppressing your rights, this is someone evading a shitty ban on spessmens and you lot going "Oh, well well well, looks like we gots ourselves a law breaker after all. Sure does got a purty mouth, bet he even squeals like a pig" and tacking on a perma ban on top

[NikNakFlak]

I brought up that point in adminbus.
Yes.
If you find a ban un-fair, or wrong, appeal it, make a thread. Regardless of anything, you gotta go through the procedure. Evading, whether than ban is just or not, is not allowed. Not to mention once they were caught, they said they were just gonna evade again. Evading a ban, regardless of anything will pretty much always net you a perma.

[miggles]

the only actual offense here is that the dude who got banned is a natural dickhead and evaded his ban
he still shouldnt have had the ban in the first place, solo antags should be allowed to do whatever they want

[NikNakFlak]

Did you not read a thing I said in my post before this?
His ban was not only for ghosting as an antag but also for being a general dick. It was discussed between Tedward and scaredy. The ban was placed under host's permission. Bans are to correct bad behavior. If the ban wasn't agree'd with then make a thread, evading is never ok.

[Malkevin]

To be honest banning someone because "he hurt my feelings" is worse than banning him because he ghosted.

[Saegrimr]

To be honest banning someone because "he hurt my feelings" is worse than banning him because he ghosted.

I agree, but this guy in particular has been a persistent shit. Any time he gets PMed its straight to accusations of meta grudges or something, "I BET YOU'RE THAT HOP I JUST SHOT AND JUST MAD NOW".
Any time he ahelps, its always "THIS GUY IS META-ING ME, HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHAT A VOICE CHANGER IS" or "BEING ARRESTED FOR NO REASON" after doing something very suspect with latex gloves on, got his fingerprints found, and proceeded to throw a bitchfit about how they aren't supposed to know he did the thing. By the way it took untill I got the story from the detective and warden before he even admitted to me that he did the thing, wasting everybody's time here.

I dont think anybody's had a normal PM with this guy, and i'm personally not sad to see him gone.
When scaredy himself logs on to give a dayban for being a shithead (unrelated to this incident), theres definitely something wrong with him. I know this is just gonna come off as me whining though.

[oranges]

Also oranges is complaining about nothing, he doesn't play security and admitted this. Nobody should be allowed to share their opinion on this unless they play security regularly because the ONLY people this dicks over is security.

Yes, I pulled the logs and investigated this entire thing. It was a regular traitor. Do not get things mixed up here.

Apologies first of all for not including all the information, but please wait for the facts before discounting something I say thanks.

edit: I'm not questioning his permaban, he's a shit and his bad behaviour would've got him knocked at some point.

I just wanted clarification for the point of ghosting as antags, since that seems to be answered for now, I will lock this thread at the end of today.

[ThatSlyFox]

It beats ghosting after I processed your ass and put you in perma. The guy did good ghosting beforehand. Ban evading was pretty stupid. Most likely the result of being pissed off at a stupid ban on top of getting caught as a traitor.

[Timbrewolf]

To be honest banning someone because "he hurt my feelings" is worse than banning him because he ghosted.

Playing here is a privilege.