So this is how LRP dies... with thunderous applause.
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:08 amThe way this used to be enforced on antags to counter this being enforced on security, was that admins had free roam to do some tasteful button presses to make the antag's round more challenging. If you're gonna play to win as tator, so will the gods.
Could you elaborate on exactly what kinds of button presses would be allowed here? Can any random admin just gib or BSA you for playing in a way that they personally feel is "lame"? Can they drop pod in an inquisitorial ERT that hard counters your wizard build by being immune to all of your spells and being able to kill you in seconds?
Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:12 pm
If people don't like it there's a ton of downstreams they can murderfuck on
Such as? Name one /tg/ downstream that A. speaks English, B. is still LRP, and C. has a double digit popcount.
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
You can fuck around and find out, you just wouldn't be able to minmax your gear before doing so.
But preparation is half of the mechanical depth of this game's combat and interactions. If you do not prepare, you die to one syringe from a syringe gun, you get trapped alone for 15+ minutes when the station loses power, you can't save the guy who's dying on the floor in front of you, you can't make a new uniform on the spot for someone whose uniform burned off, and you can't cuff a guy who's being lynched to get the mob to leave his critted body alone. Power (and thus preparation) is a key part of playing to win, but it's also a key part of playing to
not lose and in playing to
affect the story.
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
and had mainly only ever *heard* of these bad things happening at other stations
God forbid we let players demonstrate their ability to learn from past encounters and adapt to them. No, we need to force them to pretend to start back at square one every shift, fuck the people who are interested in and want to get better at the mechanical parts of the game.
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
it is play to win to prep before hand,
and it is also play to win to build an optimized load out you always pull out when x antag is announced, especially when it involves optimizing for meta knowledge like armor values, hp, force, and such.
So it's wrong to get better at the game? It's wrong to plan out counters to enemy capabilities and to build a meta? We should just charge knowingly into traps that we've fallen for before? We should do the exact same fucking thing over and over again, because we're only allowed to improve by learning how to click faster/more accurately, and not on a strategic level?
You know what sucks more than being ganked by an antag because you didn't rush gear at roundstart? Being ganked by an antag because you didn't have tools that you wanted to get but arbitrarily couldn't because nobody reported X antag type over comms.
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
also security's (and to a lesser degree any valid hunting crew) job (at the ooc level)
is to give the antag a challenge to winning, that if they can met, will make said win more satisfying.
if you have a strat that basically guarantees they lose, always, every time, its play2win and powergaming. You aren't supposed to make them lose, just make them
earn their green text. This is what it means to act in good faith towards the game and enjoyment of it. Like, if you are the hos, you are their final boss. The final boss is not suppose to be unbeatable, just really hard, (and in our case with no saves or chance to try again when you fail)
No, that's a balance issue that should be fixed via code, not an admin smite. We should not be forcing security players to "let" antags win. Both sides should be trying their hardest, because that's what makes victory actually feel earned instead of hollow and what makes defeat a learning experience instead of "welp, I guess I die here due to factors outside of my control".
Who the fuck is gonna sign up for a game where their job is to feed someone else's ego?
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
reactive or proactive lane leaving? If the chemist is getting mutagen and going to botany or ass-garden to make some overpowered bullshit, and blue alert only just barely triggered, and there is no antagonistic shit going on, why would that be allowed? technically its already against the rules.
This kind of shit is why cross-departmental interactions and mechanically deep projects are so rarely seen- people like you lose their shit when you grab or invest in something from another department that synergizes or does something cool with something from your own. Only being able to use items from your department is a cyborg limitation, not a human one.
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
Hacking into doors is an ic issue on its own (depending somewhat on the door and what you do afterwards). Somebody who wants to hack into doors, has an ic justification for wanting insuls.
As does someone who doesn't want to instantly get owned by a malf or subverted AI revealing itself later into the shift.
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
Pre-prepping at round start and waiting for something to use your toys on, is shallow game play
But under your system, you'd still be waiting for something to use your toys on, because you need to wait for something to use your toys on to start making said toys (which I'm sure will work out great for the botanists who need to suddenly pull holy melons out of their asses after someone reports cult halos).
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
, reacting to events and coms traffic and chatter, is more deep, interactive, fun, and makes time-of-execution a meaningful factor that can influence how well an antag does, given that it starts a race between everybody reacting to the antag existing, and prepping for it, and the antag trying to do their thing.
Personally, I don't find starting the 10 minute process of creating a weapon to stop an antag in the 6 seconds I have between said antag c4ing through my wall and me being gunned down by their hand cannon very deep, interactive, or fun, but maybe that's just a me thing. I'd also argue that being unable to adapt to or prepare for an antag's capabilities until they use them makes fighting them a painfully shallow experience that mostly consists of "going through the motions", the very thing you (and I) despise.
Why can't that race start at roundstart? And that dynamic already exists somewhat, seeing as how you don't really have the bag space to fully prepare for all given antag types/attack methods at once. You choose the generalist tools that you think will be relevant (and/or specific tools against things you despise dying to), then adapt your loadout as the round goes on and specific threats get confirmed.
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
It makes comms the proper target it should always be, as currently why would any antag try to avoid letting the crew find out whats going on, if half the station is gonna be prepped for you and every other antag at round start anyways.
Because it prevents sec (and validhunters) from being alerted to your location? You might be able to fight anyone on the station individually, but it's hard to fight multiple people at once. And, as mentioned earlier, it lets people tailor their builds specifically to your exact strategy instead of just to commonly seen threats.
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
The only person who is supposed to be minmax equipped to handle nukeops at round start, is the clown, via the slips they have access to. This is a feature, not a bug.
what
so blitz ops are just supposed to auto-win even harder than they already do?
even by your bizarro logic of slips being the only thing that can stop nuke ops at round start, a janitor can start the round with a soap heirloom
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
manuel still expects crew members to do their job, the other servers won't
Even though chemists who decide to perform the heinous cross-departmental act of "growing a combat plant" are supposed to be reprimanded? Will botanists also be punished for growing combat plants or holy melons without an antag callout?
I'd honestly draw the comparison more towards Fulp here than towards Manuel.
mount, err, i mean we wouldn't do that at all ever >=})
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
My round was not ruined by not immediately dunking on the antags (as engi borg this would be by trying to flash them and take them to sec) that i found too early in their process for them to have a chance to respond.
Okay, and? Nobody's screeching at you for "throwing" by deciding to RP a response to those cultists, but nobody (on Sybil, Bagil, or Terry) should be screeching at you for NOT immediately dunking on them either. Both playstyles are equally valid, IMO, but nobody should be forced to react one way or the other on LRP.
MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm
In fact, this ended up being the first round I module swapped to janitor borg, then spent a few rounds after that as janitor borg having fun running around the station and cleaning up messes.
I'm glad you had a good round (and that you didn't get punished for standing still by those cultists stun handing you and then sac'ing you).
Janiborgs have since had their ability to clean nerfed into the ground, by the way, but that's mostly irrelevant, as was you sparing the cultists somehow causing you to discover that the janitor model is pretty neat. You would have discovered it on your own regardless or found something else that was neat.
This response post is long, so I'm gonna end it here, because there's an important point I want to make in the next (hopefully short) one.