Security needs new rules

[ZiggyValencia]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I recently started playing Bartender at the suggestion of a friend. I've been enjoying it a lot, but I had never known why he started with a shotgun.

Until I had to kill someone every round without about the first 10 minutes of the game. Every time. Without fail.

One fucker stole the booze o' mat while I was otherwise occupied. He took it into maintenance and defended it to the death.

I could never get it back because, regardless of how many times I requested security, they wouldn't come help. It doesn't matter what the situation is. It could be "Help, that guy is acting like a syndie" all the way to "Help, this guy is literally killing me with a knife oh god" and they just won't come fucking help.

I think it would be really helpful if there was some kind of policy in place for getting sec to help in situations where one cannot just shoot people with the double-barrel. Preferably, putting these new rules on the wiki.

I understand it'll still be players making decisions, but then at least we can go to someone and say that sec isn't doing their job with some source to point to.

Thanks for reading. I hope to be able to drink instead of shoot.

[Wyzack]

Asspained greyshirt detected

[Falamazeer]

and 90% of the time you waste your time arresting people who are not doing anything particularly harmful, instead of traitors/lings/cultists etc, pissing off everyone, turning otherwise friendly crew against security and slowly ruining its image from round to round

face it, you're a power tripper and you only ever pick security not because you want to protect crew from harm but because you want to shoot tazorz everywhere trololo and get away with it, probably because it's the only amount of power and control you experience in your life



honk!

Nope, I rarely arrest for stupid shit, I'm brave enough to put a name to my actions, Ham Sammich, How about you pumpkin?
Or do all you have is merit-less vague claims about how security wronged you and hurt your very special feelings?

Maybe try manning up and taking responsibility for the shit you do to bring problems on yourself. Because frankly trying to get personal and acting like a little bitch about it isn't helping your case, I am one of the oldest sec veterans still playing the role consistently, and I've only been jobbanned ONCE, Let any admin show otherwise and embarrass me in public if he wishes, I am not the gestapo, Nor a jackbooted thug, I am neither the hero this station deserves, nor the one it wants, I'm your average officer trying to hold the brig together against the tide of poo-flinging shitcrew who wants to tear it apart.

[ShadowDimentio]

You broke an IC law and were punished accordingly. Ok, you waltzed in and made yourself some mutagen. Now imagine how that looks to the chemists, MDs and security. The only way anyone would know is if they managed to shift+click the beaker in the microsecond between when you ejected it from the machine and when you picked it up. They have no idea what you made and they reacted accordingly.

It looks like a botanist trying to get some work done. It's not like I broke in, whipped up a beaker of zombie powder, and then proceeded to loom around the captain for ten minutes. No. I walked straight back to botany and did my fucking job.

And, hell. Even a quick, two second search that checked the beaker would tell those idiots that it was a beaker of mutagen, and everyone's rounds could go on.

But no, if a situation could potentially be interpreted as malicious, BRIG FOR TEN MINUTES, JUSTICE SERVED.

[Scones]

i fail to see an issue with someone getting brigged over breaking and entering

[Arete]

It looks like a botanist trying to get some work done. It's not like I broke in, whipped up a beaker of zombie powder, and then proceeded to loom around the captain for ten minutes. No. I walked straight back to botany and did my fucking job.

And, hell. Even a quick, two second search that checked the beaker would tell those idiots that it was a beaker of mutagen, and everyone's rounds could go on.

But no, if a situation could potentially be interpreted as malicious, BRIG FOR TEN MINUTES, JUSTICE SERVED.

Hey, don't be too hard on security, they were just trying to get their work done.

[Amelius]

--Fala "I tase everyone on sight" Mazeer

top kek

You say that like it's a bad thing.
I'll adopt a "shoot questions first and ask bullets later" approach when people stop running the moment I try to talk to them.
Or continuing the brawl well after I've screamed at them to stop.

I'm not robust enough to stop people consistently after they know I'm on to them, So ninety percent of my arrests are done through stealth and back shots. Otherwise I'd spend every round ever yackity saxing, which I kinda do already.

Recently as security, detective especially, I've been stopping suspects in the halls/etc. for logical confrontations, leaving them uncuffed and unstunned, while providing an argument that would logically lead to their guilt, rather than tazing them outright. If they bolt or make any funny moves (start running toward me, start motioning to leave, etc.), then I'll shoot, cuff, and search (at least) anyway.

Thus far, I don't think I've, in recent thought, been robusted by surprise in this manner. Even then, I tend to tell the warden, AI, or a trustworthy security member (someone who isn't being a shit/braindead/fucking off) where I'm headed and my intention as insurance.

It's actually quite fun though, from both an RP and a mindgame perspective (often, if I'm missing information that would justify an arrest [e.g. we found engineer fibres on a door in maintenance leading to the dead CE, but there are 3 engineers], I'll lie through my teeth about finding particular evidence, or so on to each of the engineers individually, starting with the most suspect one (based on behaviour, collegue opinions/MIA status, etc.), simply to elicit a response and/or an admission of guilt, and thus, create justification for arrest while also reaching truth of the matter). There are, obviously, other techniques to get someone to fuck themselves over, since often I don't even have enough evidence for a straight-up search, but only vaguities like intuition, rumour, and maybe a fibre here or there.

On the flipside, as antagonist I believe it's more fun to be accosted with the opportunity to defend yourself and see it coming, instead of a detective/officer randomly stripsearching you.(unless you're asking for it, like by wearing the wrong backpack/wearing the wrong ID/unknown/etc.). Conversely, as security, it's more fun to be involved in a fight based on skill, quick-reaction, and preparedness, rather than solely using the element of surprise, or, by god, Boopsky to fuck them over (barring out-of-control circumstances). Furthermore, because the AI is usually used to locate the antagonist in the first place, they can often get fucked over by bolted doors everywhere / borgs too, so at least, I figure, granting them the one mercy of trying to talk/bribe/fight their way out of it, it's the least I can do.

Speaking of bribery, I wish that people would bribe me for once to leave them alone for once, instead of instantly whipping out the boring syndicate revolver/esword/ebow and getting robusted for it.

[Lumbermancer]

Recently as security, detective especially, I've been stopping suspects in the halls/etc. for logical confrontations, leaving them uncuffed and unstunned, while providing an argument that would logically lead to their guilt, rather than tazing them outright. If they bolt or make any funny moves (start running toward me, start motioning to leave, etc.), then I'll shoot, cuff, and search (at least) anyway.

The problem I have with this, is that if he manages to kill you or get away, any death or destruction he causes is on you. All because you were too proud to tase&cuff a confirmed suspect, as if SOP was beneath you.

As a Detective you shouldn't be making arrests anyway, just pointing Sec in the right direction.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Speaking of bribery, I wish that people would bribe me for once to leave them alone for once, instead of instantly whipping out the boring syndicate revolver/esword/ebow and getting robusted for it.

I got bribed for AA recently as a HoP. It was great.

[Cheimon]

Honestly, if you're detective half the time you're the only one who cares about the arrests you're pushing for. I know I've spent rounds where suspects I talked about and updated records for were totally ignored by security until I did something about it myself.

Anyway, there's a place for the nice chat and there's a place for 'shoot first'. You can save talking to people when you don't have anything to actually be certain about their guilt, and so you want to see their reaction. If they stop and talk, and allow you to search them, it's rare to have them stun you.

But sometimes you really do have to shoot first. I was patrolling maint with another officer looking for reports at a cult at one point when two people approached quickly. If we hadn't immediately tased them both, they would have stunned us with the papers in their hands, which weren't really possible to see on the sprite. Sometimes being quick on your gun is the appropriate response.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Times when I'll tase first ask questions later as sec:
-> In maint
-> When sec has less than 3 alive beat officers
-> When there are lings/mindswappers/cults/revs/gangs
-> During red alert
-> If you're a scientist more than 30 minutes in (Because you're almost guaranteed to be packing more heat than the HOS)
-> If you have a weapon on you
-> If you're bloody
-> If I'm having a bad day
Situations I tase first ask questions never:
->You're a greyshirt Unknown with a red [W] covered in blood wearing a sec backpack and you just walked past beepsky without it arresting you
-> You're a clown.
->You're a nuke op (seriously why would you not)

[mosquitoman]

Recently as security, detective especially, I've been stopping suspects in the halls/etc. for logical confrontations, leaving them uncuffed and unstunned, while providing an argument that would logically lead to their guilt, rather than tazing them outright. If they bolt or make any funny moves (start running toward me, start motioning to leave, etc.), then I'll shoot, cuff, and search (at least) anyway.

Thus far, I don't think I've, in recent thought, been robusted by surprise in this manner. Even then, I tend to tell the warden, AI, or a trustworthy security member (someone who isn't being a shit/braindead/fucking off) where I'm headed and my intention as insurance.

It's actually quite fun though, from both an RP and a mindgame perspective (often, if I'm missing information that would justify an arrest [e.g. we found engineer fibres on a door in maintenance leading to the dead CE, but there are 3 engineers], I'll lie through my teeth about finding particular evidence, or so on to each of the engineers individually, starting with the most suspect one (based on behaviour, collegue opinions/MIA status, etc.), simply to elicit a response and/or an admission of guilt, and thus, create justification for arrest while also reaching truth of the matter). There are, obviously, other techniques to get someone to fuck themselves over, since often I don't even have enough evidence for a straight-up search, but only vaguities like intuition, rumour, and maybe a fibre here or there.

On the flipside, as antagonist I believe it's more fun to be accosted with the opportunity to defend yourself and see it coming, instead of a detective/officer randomly stripsearching you.(unless you're asking for it, like by wearing the wrong backpack/wearing the wrong ID/unknown/etc.). Conversely, as security, it's more fun to be involved in a fight based on skill, quick-reaction, and preparedness, rather than solely using the element of surprise, or, by god, Boopsky to fuck them over (barring out-of-control circumstances). Furthermore, because the AI is usually used to locate the antagonist in the first place, they can often get fucked over by bolted doors everywhere / borgs too, so at least, I figure, granting them the one mercy of trying to talk/bribe/fight their way out of it, it's the least I can do.

that's how you play security, bravo

i would personally never be actively hostile to a player who does all this, unless he was my assassination target of course

another great security player I've seen recently is someone named "Catherine Smith", probably someone from another server as she mentioned not being familiar with the station layout. here are some really cool things I've noticed her doing:

- when assigned to a department, informs department's head about it, asks where she can help and what to look out for
- helps people working in the department with various tasks if things are calm
- always informs people what they're being arrested for and what's going to happen to them (after cuffing etc)

and most importantly: acts and talks politely and respectfully

I wonder if we're gonna see more of that player

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I give it a week of encountering shitlord "HALP AI SEC KILLING ME" assistants and having traitors unzip their revolver on her, before she stuns and cuffs on sight and drags to a secure area before even speaking to them.

On the other hand, out-quickdrawing a traitor with a revolver is about as satisfying as sec gets.

[Falamazeer]

I do try from time to time.
It's just rarely works, And when I run them down and ask them why they wouldn't respond, people like to claim I drew a gun, or baton or whatnot so they ran, or they refuse to engage in any real dialogue.
Just keep spouting how I'm killing them or they are innocent, or demanding to know why I arrested them.

And outdrawing a traitor isn't as satisfying as it gets, People demanding a lawyer and trial over stupid small shit an locking them in that tiny defendants booth with a radio and wishing them the best of luck is. After all, I have no obligation to make sure they get their wish, And I'm not hanging around for the next ten minutes trying to get the right people to respond either.

[Malkevin]

When someone asks for a trial: grab three other sec officers, or just random bums off the street (not assistants or lawyers or clowns/mimes though, they are scum always).
Have a tribunal.

There is no formal SOP for holding trials; you don't need a judge, a prosecutor lawyer, a defence lawyer, and a jury.
Never involve lawyers in trials, it is in their best interest to extend them for as long as possible in order to validate their existence.
Assistants and clowns and mimes are usually always turds, who have nothing better to do than mess with security.
Grab someone that has it in their best interest to get the trial over with as soon as possible.

And always remember: trials for timed sentences is forbidden under Space Law.

[mosquitoman]

another great example:

I was playing MD, doing the typical MD stuff. Out of the blue a security guy approaches me near botany, says hi. I say hi to him, another one tases me, detective and another guy appear, they cuff me, harmbaton me, throw my shit on the ground, then after a few seconds remove the cuffs and walk away like nothing happened.

transcript if you're interested:

Spoiler:

Luck Surname says, "Hey lad"
Luck Surname says, "How're you doing"
Max Killmenn says, "Hey"
Max Killmenn says, "Okay"
Frank Ocelot fires the hybrid taser!
Luck Surname says, "What were you doin on the morgue"
Max Killmenn is hit by an electrode in the head!
Frank Ocelot puts the hybrid taser into the backpack.
Maxim Vasilyev coughs!
Luck Surname says, "Okay that works too"
Max Killmenn slurs, "W'haat the 'fuck"
Maxim Vasilyev coughs!
Frank Ocelot is trying to put handcuffs on Max Killmenn!
Potato McTayto coughs!
Maxim Vasilyev sneezes.
Max Killmenn slurs, "Whaaat's wro'ng w'i'tth yyooo?"
Potato McTayto coughs!
Potato McTayto has stunned you with the stunbaton!
Frank Ocelot tries to remove Max Killmenn's medical backpack.
Luck Surname says, "I was having a talk"
Frank Ocelot tries to remove Max Killmenn's medical backpack.
[Common] PTO states, "Jason Poehl has signed up as Assistant."
Frank Ocelot says, "Bitch ass"
Luck Surname exclaims, "MY CONVERSATION RUINED!"
Max Killmenn says, "Why are you hurting me"
Maxim Vasilyev asks, "Anything?"
Maxim Vasilyev has attacked Max Killmenn in the chest with the emergency oxygen tank!
Frank Ocelot says, "Nothing"
Frank Ocelot puts the box into the medical backpack.
Frank Ocelot says, "The guy was lying"
Luck Surname says, "WELP"
Maxim Vasilyev says, "Free to go, negro."

[Durkel]

le snip

It sounds like someone either framed you or simply lied to security about what you were doing. You were searched, hit once by a oxygen tank and let go. I don't really see a problem with how that played out and the whole transaction should have only taken about a minute..

[Malkevin]

That sounds like an interesting backstory.
I'd like to hear what they thought they wanted him for.

[Falamazeer]

You tell it one way, like they just silently fucked you over, But your logs are completely different, they could have been more specific, but they made it obvious you were falsely accused of shenanigans in the morgue.

Maybe work on your victim complex.

[mosquitoman]

i was simply given no chance to reply, as soon as the guy finished asking me how i am i was assaulted, no explanation given
i was a doctor so simply exiting the morgue is not nearly a reason to do all this

see as far as I can tell the first guy wanted to be civil but his buddies were typical shitcurity thugs

on the other hand, also very recently, i was suspected of emagging doors. security guy approached me, told me that, i calmly and politely responded that i'm sad to hear that but he can search me
he did so, apologized for unnecessary problem, i told him that if he needs any more info he can always contact me, and he was on his way - that's how you play security

[Falamazeer]

You just want people to bow and scrape and beg for the ability to do their job, now who is on a power trip?

Asking for permission to search and talking shit out doesn't work, people either just run off, Or ignore you from the start.
Your expectations are unrealistic, and Most people punish the fuck out of security for employing the tactics you want employed.

Get a frame of referance, actually try to do the things you want done and see how out of touch with the realities this server offers you are.

[mosquitoman]

if you don't stop acting like shits then this vicious circle will never be broken js

[Cheimon]

Yeah, it's quite reasonable to arrest and search someone without stopping to give them a chance to run away if you believe you've got good intelligence on them having something (or you know they've committed a crime, or whatever). Half the time if you ask someone to search, they'll run. Even some players that have nothing will do it. Why do that if you've got a good reason to search in the first place?

Potato McTayto coughs!
Potato McTayto has stunned you with the stunbaton!
Frank Ocelot tries to remove Max Killmenn's medical backpack.
Luck Surname says, "I was having a talk"
Frank Ocelot tries to remove Max Killmenn's medical backpack.

Also, this isn't harmbatoning. Harmbatoning is when you're beaten with the baton as well as stunned by it. Standard batoning someone you've recently tased is entirely reasonable, as if you've been slow to get the cuffs out the stun from a taser will wear off before the cuffs are securely on. Hitting you with an oxygen tank was the rude thing there.

[Falamazeer]

Hitting you with an oxygen tank was the rude thing there.

He was searching the box, it's entirely possible that wasn't deliberate. Or he's an ass 50/50

if you don't stop acting like shits then this vicious circle will never be broken js

This server has 60+ pop rounds consistently, Are you seriously going to blame the 10% or less that actually play security?
And I'm being generous, six officer in a 60+ round is a little rare honestly.

Laying all these problems at the feet of the shitlers isn't gonna cut it, Because even some of the more popular players that get along with everyone shit on security players as a matter of course.

[LNGLY]

I'm sick of the game's fundamental problems being blamed on players. You aren't going to get anywhere that way. People behave a certain way in accordance with human nature, they won't change. The correct thing to do is to design the game with that constraint in mind, just like you would any other constraint.

Security doesn't work, at least not how it is now, in the context of a game with 60 minute rounds. In a game with a different structure a five-minute timeout might mean nothing, but in Space Station 13 it eliminates 12% of your round without accounting for the time it takes for an officer to take someone to the brig and search them before the sentence starts. Security has no time to fully investigate every single incident otherwise they'd have a huge backlog of people in cuffs and the shuttle would have arrived already. So often they just side with whoever says their side first, or whoever has the most mouths on their side.

Being brigged throws off the entire flow of a person's round, and because you all insist on having people arrested for idiotic 'roleplay' reasons, we end up with shit like people having 5-minute brig sentences because they broke into chemistry to get the mutagen for their plants that no one was around to make for them. Which is another symptom of the 60-minute-round thing, by the way: no one is willing to follow the 'correct' channels to get stuff done (like going to the captain to ask him to come open chemistry or whatever) because it takes forever and there's a finite amount of time before the tidal wave that is 'The escape shuttle has been called.' comes and washes away their sandcastles.

So, in the absence of a revamp to how security works, the players have decided to make security unfun to play. People don't enjoy having their round ruined by this inherently flawed job, so they've through careful mayhem-making conditioned everyone sane into never playing it.

[Wyzack]

> Greytiding is the sane response

Is this how people justify being shitters in their own mind?

[bandit]

Being brigged throws off the entire flow of a person's round, and because you all insist on having people arrested for idiotic 'roleplay' reasons, we end up with shit like people having 5-minute brig sentences because they broke into chemistry to get the mutagen for their plants that no one was around to make for them. Which is another symptom of the 60-minute-round thing, by the way: no one is willing to follow the 'correct' channels to get stuff done (like going to the captain to ask him to come open chemistry or whatever) because it takes forever and there's a finite amount of time before the tidal wave that is 'The escape shuttle has been called.' comes and washes away their sandcastles.

I play botanist a lot and I regularly have to get the AI to let me into chemistry. I have never been brigged for this. Less strawman pls

[Erisian]

> Greytiding is the sane response

Is this how people justify being shitters in their own mind?

Well, to be fair, when security is being shit (whether it's justified or just due to the chaos of a round) people aren't just going to be dragged off to perma quietly. They won't sit there, have their shit looted, and pretty much be treated like a ragdoll and do nothing about it. They will fight back and others will join in because they don't want to suffer the same fate. If security doesn't want to get greytided, they need to not redtide. And it's important to have that balance. If security steps out of line and start power tripping, they need to get smacked down. Just like if some guy greytides for no reason he should get smacked down by security. It keeps everyone in check. Wannabe Shitlers will think twice before being an ass, because they know if they act like a dick they're disappearing into maint, and greytiders know that if they act up they'll go to the "prisoner transfer room" and never return.

There's been times I've just flat out let other security officers get dragged off and fucked over by tiders because I saw they had been shit and let people work it out of their system by kicking his shit in. Or come down hard on other security officers for abusing power. The fact that there's conflict between the two shows problems. People very rarely greytide for no reason. It happens when security starts antagonizing the crew. If they start doing that, they need to get beat down like security would do to needless greytiders. And if it's being done for legitimate reasons, the officer, warden, HoS, or someone else needs to COMMUNICATE with the person and let them know the score. Not silently strip searching them and leaving them bucklecuffed to the bed. That just lets the animosity fester and then security wonders why there's an angry horde attacking them.

I have solved so many fucking issues as a security officer by just remembering everyone is here to have fun and play a game. I ask myself "is it really serious enough of a crime to make them take a time out from playing?" and if the answer is no, then don't bother arresting them. Simple punches, minor theft, etc., aren't even worth brigging over. Just go talk to them about it or let them sort it out on their own. Most people will be amicable, at least they have been in my experience when I've played security and didn't go I AM THE LAW and then instantly shoot at them and cart them off to the brig for their 10 minute sentence. Half of the problem is people powertripping and half of the "hardcore" roleplayers who just feel the need to fuck everybody in the ass for every disarm. And you wonder why people get mad of sitting in a cell for 20 minutes consecutively for minor things and want to make your round shit in retaliation?

Take a guy like Deckard Ford as an example. He plays a tough security officer who will shoot and cuff first, but you know what? He fucking communicates with you. He'll listen to your side of the story and then even uncuff you if he feels he has the situation under control. He's not going to just be some anonymous redshirt whose sole intent seems to fuck your fun over.

[Falamazeer]

People very rarely greytide for no reason. It happens when security starts antagonizing the crew.

Right here is the fatal flaw in your reasoning.
And with it, the rest of your crew favoring argument falls to shit too.

Shitcurity is not nearly so much a problem as it used to be, most complaints about shitcurity I see and hear these days are from over entitled asshats, With obvious exceptions that are quickly mopped up by the admin crew. People bitching about bucklecuffing are just parroting from the old days when you literately could not resist out of it, nor take any single action because you were bucklecuffed.

most people claiming to have been beaten mean being stunned by the baton, Way back when Shitcurity was a really bad thing, Officers had absolutely no choice but to repeatedly baton all the way to the brig with their prisoners, because one fucker touches you, and your prisoner runs away wearing his brand new bracelets, which he'll gladly give back after he finishes making his stungloves.
Stungloves which were infinitely more useful than any iteration of the stun baton because it was harder to disarm.

And when was the last time one of you whining assholes was literately blinded by repeated flashes from the cell doors or a hand held flash?

These incidents of real honest to god abuse are handled OOC by an admin Bwoink, and jobbans galore, But security has no such comfort, You're allowed to rage against the system until it breaks round after round and not a fuck is given except for the most dire of greytiding, I was stripped down to my BONES by an assistant, and was then told it was an IC incident, But god help me if I don't give you back your fire-axe after your timer goes off, And heaven forbid I don't give you every opportunity to run off mid-sentence before an arrest, or read your fucking minds to figure out who threw the first punch, Because then I'm shitcurity.

More rules don't need to be in place to prevent shitcurity, more rules need to be in place to protect goodcurity, and promote growth of the job, We have the shitcurity well in hand And no amount of 'horror stories' about the admins not banning officers for doing their job when you didn't want it done is going to change that.I know this because I'm not the only officer to complain about the excessive bwoinkings they get when they act responsibly. Security is already being held to a high standard, Now maybe the crew needs to meet it halfway and stop fucking the whole department when one detective unloads his gun at a guy.

[Atlanta-Ned]

More rules don't need to be in place to prevent shitcurity, more rules need to be in place to protect goodcurity, and promote growth of the job, We have the shitcurity well in hand And no amount of 'horror stories' about the admins not banning officers for doing their job when you didn't want it done is going to change that.I know this because I'm not the only officer to complain about the excessive bwoinkings they get when they act responsibly. Security is already being held to a high standard, Now maybe the crew needs to meet it halfway and stop fucking the whole department when one detective unloads his gun at a guy.

Empty quoting for emphasis.

Also wanna share an anecdote that perfectly encapsulates my frustrations. Yesterday evening I played a round as Warden. Literally everything went to shit. Towards the end of the round, I noticed an assistant in the brig control office. Assistants aren't supposed to be in the brig control office, so I stun and cuff them. In the subsequent search, I discover that this assistant has an advanced energy gun, the captain's antique laser and a sheaf of double agent documents. I ask the HoS what to do and he says perma. Off they go. All the while, this assistant is screaming bloody murder/shitsec even after I explained why I was arresting them and confiscating the items they should not have had, in a place they should not have been.

...and then I get ahelped asking me to justify why I put this person in perma. I explain what I found on their person, in the brig office, and that matter is resolved. So this assistant somehow manages to break out of perma at some point, prints an electronic crossbow at R&D and promptly returns to perma where they attack and try to kill me.

All because I acted exactly the way a security officer is expected to act when faced with such an encounter. Getting ahelped over that situation was really, really shitty and should not have happened.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Did they get banned?

[Atlanta-Ned]

Did they get banned?

I have no idea, but I wonder what would happen if people started getting punished for escalating IC issues like that to ahelp. Is that even something that happens right now?

EDIT: I didn't ahelp them attacking me because 1. it was an IC issue (to me anyway) and 2. the electronic crossbow + items in their backpack earlier threw me off and I assumed they were an antag. They were not on the round end report though.

EDIT 2: In this same round, I set someone to arrest for shouting greytide as soon as they joined. Security got bitched out (IC) for that one too.

EDIT 3: (Because I'm still :salt:y about that round) We had more than one person go catatonic on us in the brig. That was super fucking uncool too.

[mosquitoman]

That's good actually, don't take shit from no greytider. If someone's here to ruin everyone's round, ruin theirs instead. Never got bwoink'd for horrible abuse towards griefing greytiders and God bless. Especially if said greytider is a double agent, you could've got him borged.

[imblyings]

While I wasn't the one who asked atlanta-ned, I can at least partially explain it.

That was probably a (common) case of someone ahelping with very little info other than 'SEC PERMAING ME FOR NO REASON JOBBAN THIS GUY'. While we do proceed to ask the ahelper for more information, the running assumption is that the we're not getting both sides of the story and unless the admin was being confrontational or accusatory in tone to you, we're simply trying to figure out what's going on by asking for your side of the story. We are absolutely omnipotent and all-knowing in some areas, but there are some areas where asking some questions is inavoidable and it just has to be done otherwise we're not doing our jobs.

If it's any comfort to what happened, admins are generally being asked to first look at how busy someone is before bwoinking them or at least tell them to respond when they're not busy. Admins also are fairly loose with minor IC issues involving sec nowadays, with anything below 10mins or even theft of gear being an IC issue, unless of course, it repeatedly occurs for little reason or if there's some sort of grudge going on.

[Falamazeer]

Theft of gear as a quote there made me think about another example of Not-abuse that's a little harder to pin down, There is a difference between confiscating gloves and belt to wear, and hucking them in evidence.

That's probably something that shouldn't be an IC issue, And as far as I knew, wasn't just IC, I feel no problem with it being obligatory to return tools after the timer runs out, excepting when tools are used as part of the crime. or perhaps antag tools and whatnot being an obvious exception.

I feel like I'd be normally bwoinked if I walked out with someones shit that I had absolutely no legitimate right to. And that's probably for the best.

[imblyings]

It is shitty to confiscate something for no reason but that's apparently an IC issue according to policy.

[Falamazeer]

Wow, Even as a dude who always bitches for the rights of security, I gotta say I disagree with that one.

Hell even from a sec perspective and not a crew perspective, it's liable to get the whole team lynched rather than just the shithead.
Imagine a sec officer running around in stolen gloves and stolen galoshes riding the janicart and fighting crime with the CMOs hypospray, and slipping people with foam grenades. all the while screaming at the top of his lungs on the command channel with a megaphone.

[imblyings]

But that's hilarious.

On a more serious note though, argue for the policy to be changed then, even if all it does is make a few more people aware of the issue. You're not wrong about it affecting the entire team.

[Malkevin]

Space law sops I wrote dictate that confiscated items are not to be used for personal use, I'd brig the officer for theft if they didn't have a damn good reason for their sticky fingers

[Timbrewolf]

Replace brig cells with timed cryo cells

Filled with Impedrizine.

Here's a thought:

Give sec officers back the ability to curbstomp people who antagonize them or others. Now that traitorsec is long gone you shouldn't have the murder cascades where every officer is killing everyone who comes in the brig because TATOR HOS SAID I COULD.

If you arrest a greytider stomping the clown into paste, smash him over the head and drag him off in cuffs. If he keeps screaming FUCKING FAGGOT SHITCURITY KIDNAPPING ME CUCK AUTIST CHELPER you smash him over the head until he stops making sounds that aren't gasps, and you quietly deposit him in an airlock somewhere.

The current sec rules exist to protect the station from a security force that was overwhelmingly shitty.

Now the shoes on the other foot. The officers are good and the rest of the station has gone to the dumps.

Just a thought.

Here's another thought:

Space Law doesn't need to be this autistic mess Malkevin created. Scrap it and start over.

If people are actually pointing to SECTION 13 SUB SECTION 4 PARAGRAPH 2 SAYS YOU CAN BEAT A MAN TO DEATH FOR BEING SCOTTISH ON A TUESDAY and they're not just making that up and roleplaying but space law actually is written that way it's a fucking problem. Stop letting Warhammer 40k wankers write this crap.

Seriously close your eyes, take a deep breath, remind yourself this is a videogame people are trying to play, open your eyes, CLICK THIS, and then read.

What.the.fuck?

[Malkevin]

Still salty?

[DemonFiren]

To be honest, Space Law is shit. Compare: JLP.

[Timbrewolf]

It's irritating to watch people flounder about trying to solve the problem of "How do we make sec good?" time and again when a major failure is this hot mess you made.

If people want to keep fucking it up it's no skin off my back. In some weird way it's kind of hilarious.

Kudos to you for getting this autistic defcon spreadsheet so collectively entrenched in everyone's minds that people forget they have the power to just throw this thing out and start over.

I wish I had the chance to grab whoever gave you the go-ahead to push this thing into canon in the first place and then rub their face in it like a dog.

No. Bad. No. Bad.

Everytime you or Steelpoint get an opportunity to create some kind of fluff it's just magical in what a stupid idea that is.

[Steelpoint]

I have never created any security rules or policy ever, contrary to popular belief.

I have my own opinions on security, just like everyone else, the only difference there being that I am a veteran HoS player and as such I have more knowledge about the subject matter as I'm more invested in it, just like how anyone is more invested in their preferd job role.

[Timbrewolf]

I have never created any security rules or policy ever, contrary to popular belief.

I have my own opinions on security, just like everyone else, the only difference there being that I am a veteran HoS player and as such I have more knowledge about the subject matter as I'm more invested in it, just like how anyone is more invested in their preferd job role.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you write this?

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Lizardperson

[Steelpoint]

Half-correct, I wrote the 'history' section, however that's not related to security.

[Timbrewolf]

Half-correct, I wrote the 'history' section, however that's not related to security.

No but it proves my point that whenever you or Malkevin gets a chance to write fluff it's MAGICAL.

I have this fantasy in my head where the two of you someday meet up and form a two person doom metal band called GRIM DARKENER.

[Steelpoint]

Your acting like I went ahead with something against the desires of the community, that historical entry was put to a vote and underwent multiple revisions per feedback. Also honestly the historical section was simply to finally clarify what was common knowledge at the time but simply needed to be written down.

[Timbrewolf]

Just because people voted on it doesn't mean it's not silly.

We're ridiculously off topic now.

[Atlanta-Ned]

I don't understand what's wrong with space law. It's a framework for handling IC crime issues. Not really clear what the alternative is. Just guess? One officer charges 7 minutes for petty theft vs. another who only charges 1? What do you think would work better than space law as it currently stands?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

If security are given free license to smash in the face of any greyshirts who start being annoying, the AI should get free license to murder every lizard officer.

Protection goes both ways, you know.

Oh, and space law is a guideline - most officers ignore it and give you a timer which is a multiple of 5 anyway.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Oh, and space law is a guideline - most officers ignore it and give you a timer which is a multiple of 5 anyway.

I think this is a huge mistake. If everyone was playing by the same (simpler) rulebook, we'd have fewer issues.