Security needs new rules

ZiggyValencia · Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:10 pm

Bottom post of the previous page:

I recently started playing Bartender at the suggestion of a friend. I've been enjoying it a lot, but I had never known why he started with a shotgun.

Until I had to kill someone every round without about the first 10 minutes of the game. Every time. Without fail.

One fucker stole the booze o' mat while I was otherwise occupied. He took it into maintenance and defended it to the death.

I could never get it back because, regardless of how many times I requested security, they wouldn't come help. It doesn't matter what the situation is. It could be "Help, that guy is acting like a syndie" all the way to "Help, this guy is literally killing me with a knife oh god" and they just won't come fucking help.

I think it would be really helpful if there was some kind of policy in place for getting sec to help in situations where one cannot just shoot people with the double-barrel. Preferably, putting these new rules on the wiki.

I understand it'll still be players making decisions, but then at least we can go to someone and say that sec isn't doing their job with some source to point to.

Thanks for reading. I hope to be able to drink instead of shoot.

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon May 18, 2015 2:40 pm #89052

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Oh, and space law is a guideline - most officers ignore it and give you a timer which is a multiple of 5 anyway.

I think this is a huge mistake. If everyone was playing by the same (simpler) rulebook, we'd have fewer issues.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon May 18, 2015 2:41 pm #89053

i noticed this thread was getting a lot of replies so i went to check it out and damn it's just an0n3 whining

LNGLY wrote: Security doesn't work, at least not how it is now, in the context of a game with 60 minute rounds. In a game with a different structure a five-minute timeout might mean nothing, but in Space Station 13 it eliminates 12% of your round without accounting for the time it takes for an officer to take someone to the brig and search them before the sentence starts. Security has no time to fully investigate every single incident otherwise they'd have a huge backlog of people in cuffs and the shuttle would have arrived already. So often they just side with whoever says their side first, or whoever has the most mouths on their side.

I kinda agree with what you're getting at, that Security is pretty flawed in how they operate on an intrinsic level (job based on punishing people becomes disliked by many? who could have guessed) But, um, how should security work then to you? Ignore minor crimes? People still get pissy about people trespassing in their department and things like vandalism, it's not like they're not problems. I guess if we ever add a monetary system we could add fines and ticketing instead of minor brig sentences.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 18, 2015 2:46 pm #89057

Unfortunately we can't really model a security enforcement policy in assisting criminals in coming to terms with their problems and helping them over a long term period in working out their issues, so really the only meaningful method of enforcement is punishment and not rehabilitation.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 2:59 pm #89061

Atlanta-Ned wrote:I don't understand what's wrong with space law. It's a framework for handling IC crime issues. Not really clear what the alternative is. Just guess? One officer charges 7 minutes for petty theft vs. another who only charges 1? What do you think would work better than space law as it currently stands?

Simplify it. Like has been mentioned what we put up as a guideline only ever gets used when some angry prisoner is sitting in their cell doing the math for all the bullshit they've pulled and trying to argue that they got 2 more minutes of time than they deserved.

What the fuck is a minute sentence good for in practice?
Who in ten hells is actually bothering to arrest someone for something, cart them all the way back to the brig, process them, and then put them in a cell for a minute then let them go again?
Conversely a "Major Crime" is only a five minute time out? When a round can last almost two hours, committing an offense that is next closest to the DEATH PENALTY in severity is worth 5 minutes?
At one point I think the idea was that you were supposed to be totalling up all the shit they did along the way to catching them?

So you're supposed to punish the guy causing a shitstorm by running him down, dragging him back to the brig, doing a bunch of math, and then putting him in a cell for the equivalent length of a cigarette break, at which point he's unleashed and free to try again, only this time with a grudge against you for catching him.

...and people wonder why nobody wants to play sec but instead wants to run around as an assistant alternatively valid hunting or causing mass crimes?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:04 pm #89063

Except space law is a guideline to help you in deciding on a sentence or punishment.

I mean if you want us to uncap the brig cell timers and encourage security to go for the maximum prison sentencing times than sure go for it, but usually when someone's commited enough crimes to go over 10+ minutes then they are almost always eligible for a perma sentence or a trip to the gulag.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:09 pm #89066

And they often go braindead until next round anyway. If people performing small-scale griefing is an issue, then expecting security players to handle it like small-scale admins was never going to have a happy ending.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:14 pm #89067

An0n3 wrote: What the fuck is a minute sentence good for in practice?

Indecent exposure is specifically noted in space law to basically ignore unless the station is pristine. Nobody really gets busted for drug possession, unless it's something sketchy they could use for poisoning someone.
Which leaves vandalism, trespassing, and resisting arrest. These are actually notable crimes, and the last one only happens after someone has first been caught doing another crime. It's not like people are getting dragged off from their jobs for jaywalking or whatever. Again, we don't really have many alternatives to brigging aside from warnings(typically ineffective) or abuse(shitcurity).

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:20 pm #89069

Steelpoint wrote:Except space law is a guideline

Except it's not really. People get pm'ed by overzealous admins over it constantly.
Butthurt criminal scum adminhelp it constantly.

In a perfect world it would be but in practice it's not. Trying to pretend it is is a half-assed solution.

If you started over and created a new set of Space Law with the assumption that it will be a rule you can create something that is actually understandable and enforceable.
The reason why current Space Law is only expected to be a guideline is because it's practically impossible to figure out what the exact time you should be giving someone in any given moment is.

He broke windows...but they were windows leading onto the bridge...he stole an intellicard...he ran around for 3 minutes...he punched two different officers while doing so...he screamed and yelled all the way to the brig after being caught...

Let's see uhhhh....is that "B&E of a Restricted Area" or is that "Major Trespass"? What's the fucking difference they both have the same sentence.

+5 Minutes

Sparking a Manhunt for three minutes, that's three more minutes there-

+3 Minutes

Oh right "Assaulting an Officer" is a major crime that is supposed to exclude others so really we he should still...or does that add up with "The Major Trespass"?

+5 Minutes....?

He was naked the entire time I forgot about that. Does that even count?

+Fuck it who cares

He was screaming and yelling like a fucking asshole I'm giving him a minute for that

+1 Minute

Repeat Offender? Oh fuck is he? Hold still shitlord I need to ask people if you've been arrested for anything before. I mean it doesn't even say how much I should add for this one it just says "Additional Brig Time" here in my book. No the time I'm spending holding you here calculating all this doesn't count stop struggling you pussy I'm trying to get hold of someone

x= (-b +/-Sqrt(b^2-4ac))/2a

No shit it's supposed to only be a guideline Malkevin wrote something that's fucking impossible for anyone to agree on unless they're trying to always give people the absolute maximum sentence possible, and even then it's still kind of a crapshoot.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:25 pm #89073

Your really overcomplicating the issue. Most arrests don't take long to process unless you have a stubborn superior officer or there's a lot of conflicting information.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:29 pm #89076

You want to see something crazy?

http://wiki.ss13.co/Security_Officer

Goon doesn't even fucking have laws. It's just "Do whatever you feel is warranted. Anything over 5 minutes ask the Head of Security. Don't be shit."

Already I think that's a much much better system than what we have in place and would go a long way towards getting more people to play sec and enjoy it.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:33 pm #89078

Gooncurity and /tg/curity are massively different that its hard and unfair to compare them fairly.

To put it simply Gooncurity are essentially red shirted assistants who tend to just goof off and only tend to do something when a changeling or vampire start doing something bad, this is simply because overall Goonstation encourages a far more layed back attitude to the point where security may well just ignore what's going on in the station wheras to /tg/curity they operate on a different level that requires a very hands on approach because that's what our server does.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:36 pm #89080

An0n3 wrote: I wish I had the chance to grab whoever gave you the go-ahead to push this thing into canon in the first place and then rub their face in it like a dog.

That would be the over two thirds majority of people that voted Yes on the updated version I made.

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:38 pm #89081

Steelpoint wrote:Gooncurity and /tg/curity are massively different that its hard and unfair to compare them fairly.

To put it simply Gooncurity are essentially red shirted assistants who tend to just goof off and only tend to do something when a changeling or vampire start doing something bad, this is simply because overall Goonstation encourages a far more layed back attitude to the point where security may well just ignore what's going on in the station wheras to /tg/curity they operate on a different level that requires a very hands on approach because that's what our server does.

Exactly. Goon's "Black Mesa security" doesn't fit TG's culture at all. Which is ok!

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:38 pm #89083

http://wiki.ss13.co/Security_Officer#Go ... _Checklist

That's funny because it also seems to say, right there, that you should do the same kind of protecting the station from crime and fighting off major threats that our security is supposed to do.

In fact they even breakdown most roles and antagonists on threat level in a chart below that.

Seems a lot more useful than our handy reference table you can pull out and squint at to figure out what the fuck a "Code 406" is.

Malkevin wrote:
An0n3 wrote: I wish I had the chance to grab whoever gave you the go-ahead to push this thing into canon in the first place and then rub their face in it like a dog.
That would be the more then 60% of the people that voted on the updated version I made.

How many people that were there when you created this page are still here?
For fuck's sake you play this game even less than I do.

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:43 pm #89086

An0n3 wrote: How many people that were there when you created this page are still here?
For fuck's sake you play this game even less than I do.

Would you kindly stop turning this into a shitflinging contest?

Goon also has a ticket/fine system as a recourse for minor crimes. TG does not have that, meaning our recourse to discourage crime is ???

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:48 pm #89089

It's a valid point.

Current Sec Rules make reference to Space Law, which was written during a time that has long since passed for a playerbase that is long since gone by someone who is now incredibly out of touch.

It's something in dire need of a complete rewrite by current administrators into something that works for the current playerbase in a way that is fun to use, not some kind of Hitler Youth primer.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:54 pm #89090

Ironically it was my update that made space law say outright that it was just a rough guideline and can be thrown out when needed, even going as far as saying when you can kill bitches and actually adding the sentence modifier that people taking the piss could be given longer and longer sentences and even perma'ed if they dont stop being fuck knuckles.

Space Law was already taken as the bible by the time I started playing, though usually thumped by lawyers and assistants yelling "SHITCURRITY! FOLLOW SPACE LAW!", only thing I did was make it more in line with current policy and play standards that were about - so that if assistants started yelling for sec to follow space law I could go "Oh yeah... I forget these minutes, have fun staring at the ceiling for a bit longer for being a whining bitch"

An0n3 if you want to blame someone blame yourself and your fellow admins that made it so that I couldn't harm baton the crap out shit bags then shoot their corpse out the mass driver.

Its laughable you accuse me of being out of touch when you're trying to push for security to be able to space people, something that the present player base will piss and moan about because they cant deal with the consequences of their own actions.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:54 pm #89091

Space Law strikes me as still pretty relevant sans a few little tidbits.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:00 pm #89094

Malkevin wrote:Its laughable you accuse me of being out of touch when you're trying to push for security to be able to space people, something that the present player base will piss and moan about because they cant deal with the consequences of their own actions.

It sounds like you almost agree with me that removing these goddamn laws would be an improvement.

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:03 pm #89097

An0n3 wrote:
Malkevin wrote:Its laughable you accuse me of being out of touch when you're trying to push for security to be able to space people, something that the present player base will piss and moan about because they cant deal with the consequences of their own actions.
It sounds like you almost agree with me that removing these goddamn laws would be an improvement.

Again, what would removing space law improve? I'm really not following your logic. Also remember that security has no recourse for discouraging minor crimes like theft and trespassing aside from short brig sentences.

Sounds like we need to have a policy discussion about updating space law. I don't like this tidbit:

Confiscate any contraband and/or stolen items, as well as any tools that may be used for future crimes.
These are to be placed in evidence, not left on the brig floor or your personal use, until they can be returned to their rightful owners.

...that just feels super validhunt/powergame-y.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon May 18, 2015 4:04 pm

I think it's relevant except for the drug rules. That's basically the only victimless crime on it. Try changing it to "posession of a noxious substance" so you can arrest clowns with acid, or chemists running around with formaldehyde pills and water bottles.

Oh, and you shouldnt confiscate anything which isn't stolen, a traitor item, or a weapon under any circumstances IMO.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:05 pm #89099

Really? What if it is insulteds and tools from a serial break and enter shitter?

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:07 pm #89100

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: Oh, and you shouldnt confiscate anything which isn't stolen, a traitor item, or a weapon under any circumstances IMO.

This has always been my policy when I'm in a sec role. Yesterday as a warden I jumped down an officer's throat because they tried to remove an assistant's insulated gloves.

Wyzack wrote:Really? What if it is insulteds and tools from a serial break and enter shitter?

If they're a serial B&E type, then things get a little more complicated.

EDIT: Serial as in the same round, not cross-round meta bullshit.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:10 pm #89103

Exactly my point, hence why "under no circumstances" does not really work

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:13 pm #89104

Removing all this garbage gives Sec Officers their free will back.
Criminal treatment plummets. You now have serious reasons not to fuck around on the station.

Enjoy being beaten and mugged and stuffed in a box for five minutes because you broke into some place and yakkity'ed around like an asshole. Do it again and you'll get beaten, mugged, and stuffed in the airlock with the HOS' consent.

You will get laughed at when you adminhelp this.

Sec is still a force for Good, but it's Chaotic Good not this lame Lawful Good.

>You might never get the chance to toss a beaten body towards another sec officer again and say "Hey, can you space this for me?" and he knowingly nods and says "Yeah I'll get it for you."
>You may never catch the Mime breaking into EVA for the 100th time and just empty your revolver into him on the spot, no fucks given and no AdminPM's received.

Erisian · Post by **Erisian** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:14 pm #89105

Space law isn't the issue. For one, I've almost never seen security go and get the book and read it to figure out the time. Typically random officers are the ones setting the time with whatever they think fits and not rushing off to space law. They just know petty shit: sub 5 minutes varying on severity, more severe stuff 5+ minutes depending on severity, major crimes like attempted murder, traitor gear, etc: consult a head, temporary 10 minute sentence before perma/execution, etc.

That's generally the guideline I've seen security use. If you've got a nice officer, good behavior and cooperation may get time off, and a dick officer will hang around the cell for the entire time adding a minute here or there and flashing you repeatedly and leaving you bucklecuffed. The main issue, I think, is that admins don't seem to understand that a balance is required to keep the station in line. Yes, security abusing their power need to get shut down. And that was always done IC by people forming up and fucking them up. Security shouldn't have to sit around scared of ever arresting anyone or being rough with people being a dick for the sake of it for fear of the bwoinks, but neither should the crew have to learn to fucking run any time a security officer comes around because it means any fun they were having is over because Urist McShitcurity has a bug up his ass that day and be at security's mercy as the station essentially experiences a military coup.

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:15 pm #89106

An0n3 wrote:Removing all this garbage gives Sec Officers their free will back.
Criminal treatment plummets. You now have serious reasons not to fuck around on the station.

Enjoy being beaten and mugged and stuffed in a box for five minutes because you broke into some place and yakkity'ed around like an asshole. Do it again and you'll get beaten, mugged, and stuffed in the airlock with the HOS' consent.

You will get laughed at when you adminhelp this.

Sec is still a force for Good, but it's Chaotic Good not this lame Lawful Good.

I can see some logic to this actually. Judge Dredd style crime fighting. Might work if you can deal with the silicons.
EDIT: I'd whitelist security if this was the case though.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon May 18, 2015 4:15 pm

Sorry, I missed out "Or actually used to commit the actual crime you arrested them for".

And you have to remember we do get bad officers still. You cant just give them back "YOU ARE THE LAAAAAAAAAAAAW" (Unless you want sec to go back to how it used to). Anyway, people who play like you advocate tend to vanish without trace into maint and nobody even cares.

ALSO STOP NINJAING ME

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:20 pm #89108

People who still escalated right to murdering someone for no goddamn reason got bannu'd just like any other job.

It's sound ridiculously harsh but in a lot of ways it's just removing all the red tape and bringing our expectations of security officers down to what we expect out of most players with the added restriction that they can't be traitors.

You don't just murder every criminal that comes through.

You ask the HoS if you can when you have someone you think is really worth it because they've gone on a murder rampage or are a repeat offender. Everyone else you just knock around a bit to ensure they get the message. You spend half your sentence in the brig for 5 minutes. You serve however many more minutes it takes your ass to limp to medbay and get healed.

And hey on the plus side, it gives medbay more stuff to do that isn't cloning dead people!

WIN WIN!

Stare at this while listening to this until you feel it.

Erisian · Post by **Erisian** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:30 pm #89110

An0n3 wrote:People who still escalated right to murdering someone for no goddamn reason got bannu'd just like any other job.

It's sound ridiculously harsh but in a lot of ways it's just removing all the red tape and bringing our expectations of security officers down to what we expect out of most players with the added restriction that they can't be traitors.

You don't just murder every criminal that comes through.

You ask the HoS if you can when you have someone you think is really worth it because they've gone on a murder rampage or are a repeat offender. Everyone else you just knock around a bit to ensure they get the message. You spend half your sentence in the brig for 5 minutes. You serve however many more minutes it takes your ass to limp to medbay and get healed.

And hey on the plus side, it gives medbay more stuff to do that isn't cloning dead people!

WIN WIN!

The problem with the point "everyone else you just knock around a bit to ensure they get the message" is that half the time people lie in game. Which essentially means that everyone and their mother, innocent or not, is going to just get beat the fuck up and have to limp to medbay. 1. That's not how a security force should be acting. 2. This is just asking for people to get pissed and start attacking officers and either flat out murdering them or screwing them over. As has already been said, shitty officers are notorious for just disappearing into maint somewhere unless they're someone like the HoS. Now if you gave security free reign to give out ass whoopings it just means a lot of people are going to start rioting and half the security force is going to go missing. If security beats someone going "OMG SHITCURITY ARESTING ME 4 BREAKING IN FNR!" the crew tends to ignore it. Now if you let them beat innocents on mere speculation? You'll get a lot more normal people likely to rush in and defend people from what they see as abuse of power and start killing security or fucking them up.

And if that's what you want the game to be like we already have a game mode for that: it's called rev.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:35 pm #89112

If security is legitimately beating the shit out of you for no reason you would adminhelp it.
If "for no reason" is actually for once "for no reason" someone gettin' sec bant.

If "for no reason" is actually "I pushed past the Captain onto the bridge and then demonstrated my best dance moves until security arrived" then you get laughed at. And if everything was right in the world you'd get a note too, and if you got enough of those notes you get fucking banned for being a whiny asshole.

That I have to even spell that out? Come on, it's the same thing that happens anytime someone actually fucks off and misuses the powers given to them in a role.

The game got so fucking boring for everyone because all the rules and policies are built for the absolute lowest common denominator. It was a mistake. I took part in it too at different points.

Give people opportunities for FUN and just fucking DUNK THE SHIT out of people who misuse it.

Let's be honest, there's a lot of crap people do on this station they deserve a beating for, and in a lot of situations they can/do receive that beating from someone....just not a security officer. Because for some reason a random greyshirt can kick the shit out of someone they see committing crimes but the person who is supposed to be fighting criminals cant. The person who is by nature protected from being an antag in the first place is the least empowered to actually enforce the law.

Erisian · Post by **Erisian** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:43 pm #89116

An0n3 wrote:If security is legitimately beating the shit out of you for no reason you would adminhelp it.
If "for no reason" is actually for once "for no reason" someone gettin' sec bant.

If "for no reason" is actually "I pushed past the Captain onto the bridge and then demonstrated my best dance moves until security arrived" then you get laughed at.

That I have to even spell that out? Come on, it's the same thing that happens anytime someone actually fucks off and misuses the powers given to them in a roll.

The game got so fucking boring for everyone because all the rules and policies are built for the absolute lowest common denominator. It was a mistake. I took part in it too at different points.

Give people opportunities for FUN and just fucking DUNK THE SHIT out of people who misuse it.

But what about lies? Let's assume security thinks that they have an actual person who did a crime. Security beats them up, as per your policy and kicks them out and they adminhelp. They did indeed get beaten for no reason and get adminhelped. Are you truly going to sec ban someone for acting on the information he thought was true and was promoted by your policy? If not, then people getting beaten for no reason would be acceptable if they had reason to suspect they were a bad guy. So, what it mean is, adminhelping it does nothing because security can always say 'i thought they were bad" and get away with it. Do we even need to put people in the position of having to adminhelp over what would be regular beatings?

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 4:49 pm #89119

That already happens though. Traitors try to frame people for shit or just sometimes players incorrectly identify eachother as antagonists or changelings or whatever.

That's not new. It's been handled by tracking down the person who pointed the finger and either blaming them for making shit up or congratulating them for pulling off a good con job as a traitor.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon May 18, 2015 4:55 pm

Great, so now sec have murdered/beaten up an actually innocent person.

Given that as far as they're concerned they a) did no crime and b) were griefed for it, Officer Ham Barton's going to catch a bad case of stunprod toolbox the next time he steps out of the brig. Two people who did nothing wrong both get into a shitfest spanning the rest of the round because you need an excuse to be Judge Dredd instead of a security officer.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon May 18, 2015 5:13 pm #89126

An0n3 wrote:
Malkevin wrote:Its laughable you accuse me of being out of touch when you're trying to push for security to be able to space people, something that the present player base will piss and moan about because they cant deal with the consequences of their own actions.
It sounds like you almost agree with me that removing these goddamn laws would be an improvement.

Oh believe me, I'd prefer to be able to drag shit heads off the the gulag and give them a vegas burial but the confines of the rules of the game say that I can't do that.
Thats why I added large chunks to space law to give officers more freedoms in what they can punish people for and write down when its okay to lay down the law with a bat.

Contrary to popular belief I wasn't the one to create space law (apparently that was either errorage or broba fett), so I wrote it within its existing structure because I didn't feel like reinventing the wheel for something that no one followed to the letter, including me.

Its not like things have changed either, I mean just the other week Sticky banned a Sec Officer because he space an arrested Geneticist that tried to monkey him.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 10:59 pm #89207

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Great, so now sec have murdered/beaten up an actually innocent person.

Given that as far as they're concerned they a) did no crime and b) were griefed for it, Officer Ham Barton's going to catch a bad case of stunprod toolbox the next time he steps out of the brig. Two people who did nothing wrong both get into a shitfest spanning the rest of the round because you need an excuse to be Judge Dredd instead of a security officer.

Oh nooooooo!
People are fighting in SS13! This is horrible! How could this ever happen?

There's a difference between enforcing THE LAW and just taking any excuse to run around beating the shit out of people. The former is the solution the station deserves, the latter is shitcurity. Handle it on a case by case basis. Ban the people who can't use the cool toys the right way. Like I just said:

The game got so fucking boring for everyone because all the rules and policies are built for the absolute lowest common denominator. It was a mistake. I took part in it too at different points.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon May 18, 2015 11:03 pm #89210

Today I decided to stun baton a mime all the way from an area where she wasnt wanted to the bar where I told her "this is where you work" instead of brigging.
She still moaned at me because she dropped her guitar, which she was playing in completely the wrong key - fuck me, noise pollution should be a crime.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 18, 2015 11:23 pm #89217

>mime
>making noise

Times like these you wish you could wield your baton with both hands.