Security,Greytiding and You

[Tornadium]

Going from this thread : https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3915

I feel like there needs to be some kind of discussion on how officers should react to the wave of greytide shitlords that seem to be infesting the server at the moment. In all honesty people who randomly fuck with sec have far too much protection.

Not going to wall of text this but I feel like there needs to be a slight change to the protection that the rest of the crew get if they're intentionally going out of their way to make security's life difficult.

[Scones]

If a mob of crew members swarms the brig, you are free to use lethal force.
A person that is intentionally fucking with security is to be brigged.
Should the brigging fail, he is to be permabrigged.
Should that fail, he is to be executed.
If an individual repeatedly does this, or you suspect him of doing so, you should adminhelp.
If a person is intentionally fucking with security is yelling "rogue sec" or something similar, adminhelp it. This can be punished with a rule 1 violation ban.

Current rules about greytide/sec interaction for easy reference

[Cik]

what protection? if there are a few of them smashing up the brig you can shoot to kill

[Falamazeer]

what protection? if there are a few of them smashing up the brig you can shoot to kill

You go try that, we'll talk about it in your appeal.

[Cik]

i'm tempted but i'm sure they would think badly of me for shooting greyshirts to prove a point.

[Tornadium]

i'm tempted but i'm sure they would think badly of me for shooting greyshirts to prove a point.

Proving a point has also been grounds in other bans as part of the reason.

[Falamazeer]

Exactly, You don't wanna be bant.

Those rules are useless if the admins take actions against people who follow them, Lethaling up as sec will net you a ban, note, or at the very least a ^stern talking to.
Regardless of the circumstances or how bad the upper limits of your patience is tested going lethal will put you in intimate contact with the administration team, and then it's a roll of the dice for how sympathetic to the plight of the thin red line they are.


I'm not saying you should go shoot a random douche to test this, I'm saying play security on the reg, and only break out lethal force for the ones that these rules allow, and watch it fuck you anyways.

[NikNakFlak]

You actually made a thread in policy based around a single prod. Welp

[onleavedontatme]

Permabrig them, throw them in the gulag, forceborg them so they're actually useful, etc. In extreme situations just kill them.

>b-but admins will ban me

And I'll unban you.

I fully support greytiding being an IC issue, but that means the assistants in question have to suck it up and not bitch in adminhelp when security administrates an IC solution in the form of a harm baton to the skull.

Disclaimer: If you start executing the clown for climbing onto the HoP table or an assistant for running into the open brig doors you're still going to get in trouble. I mean genuine cases of greytide like assistants walling off the brig, breaking into places en masse, stealing security weapons, etc.

[Falamazeer]

A prod is most often a failed attempt at a stun, You're deluded if you think otherwise, If someone took my baton while I was slipped/disarmed and poked me with it, I'd assume he was trying to and failed at fucking my day due to not turning it on, or it being without charge.

Not sure I'd have lasered, but I definitely would have treated him as a threat.

[lumipharon]

I still remember that time I went to secure the disk as HoS, and got mobbed by like 12 greyshirts (including admins). Literally ran out of weapons because I was getting disarm spammed by 5 people at once.
Ended up just suiciding after getting chain pushed and stripped by the horde, because fuck that.

[Tornadium]

A prod is most often a failed attempt at a stun, You're deluded if you think otherwise, If someone took my baton while I was slipped/disarmed and poked me with it, I'd assume he was trying to and failed at fucking my day due to not turning it on, or it being without charge.

Not sure I'd have lasered, but I definitely would have treated him as a threat.

Especially when a single stun in SS13 means if someone wants you dead, then you're dead unless you get outside help.

There is fucking nothing you can do about it if you're stunned without something like a flashbang already ticking down.

[Falamazeer]

Flashbang ticking down actually hurts more, sec gear no longer protects you, it's based on location, they stun you, you drop it, you get the full dose for being on top of it, and they get up with more than enough time to restun you

[Steelpoint]

If people are greytiding to a extreme level just pull out the laser guns and preform a on the spot execution, that's always worked for me and I've never gotten in trouble from that. However be prepared to answer a bunch of questions from admins when said greytiders cry to the admins about them dying.

So long as they were actually greytiding and the situation escalated you'll be fine.

[Xhagi]

I think this thread is a bit of a repeat with the current 'Security policy' thread. That said, I'm just going to repeat what was said over there.

But my opinion is that if you choose to be a dick to someone with the tools to fuck your shit up and they choose to fuck your shit up you only have yourself to blame.

Don't make an antag of yourself by antagonizing security and you won't find yourself against the long arm of THE LAW and your body dragged to perma to spend the rest of the round.

And add that a stun, no matter how little, can and most likely will be treated as a lethal threat in this game because it most often is.

[bandit]

This is what the gulag is for. Give them a sentence, and if they are truly shit then they'll not do any of the work, making it effectively a permabrigging without the actual permabrigging. The only potential downside is that if you have multiple grayshits in the gulag they might try to mob you, but in that case you are fully within your rights to shut down their shit.

[TheNightingale]

As a side note, as Security I've found it's best to be proactive and stop these crimes before they happen.
... no, really. If someone's consistently antagonistic between rounds, start saving logs, then ahelp or ban request with all you've got. Failing that...

If you pick up a shining example of humanity with a stunprod, it's possession of a restricted weapon.
If you pick up a notorious greytider with a stunprod, it's possession of a restricted weapon, possession of contraband, probably resisting arrest (did they run from Beepsky?), and enemy of the corporation.

"Enemy of the corporation", a capital/perma crime, is horrifyingly vague for its possible punishments. You can nail just about anyone with this if you try hard enough, and still be able to justify it. The greyshirt with the stunprod is clearly planning on ambushing somebody with it, and was therefore hired by an enemy corporation (because no loyal NanoTrasen worker would dare do such a thing!) -- why else would they carry a 10,000W-power incapacitation tool to work?

"I-it's for self-defence!" Sure. Looks to me like you were looking for trouble... well, it found you, criminal scum.

--

The short version: finagle regular greytiders into perma charges. He's not drawing anti-lizard graffiti, he's inciting a riot for the purposes of racial tension.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

As a side note, as Security I've found it's best to be proactive and stop these crimes before they happen.
... no, really. If someone's consistently antagonistic between rounds, start saving logs, then ahelp or ban request with all you've got. Failing that...

If you pick up a shining example of humanity with a stunprod, it's possession of a restricted weapon.
If you pick up a notorious greytider with a stunprod, it's possession of a restricted weapon, possession of contraband, probably resisting arrest (did they run from Beepsky?), and enemy of the corporation.

"Enemy of the corporation", a capital/perma crime, is horrifyingly vague for its possible punishments. You can nail just about anyone with this if you try hard enough, and still be able to justify it. The greyshirt with the stunprod is clearly planning on ambushing somebody with it, and was therefore hired by an enemy corporation (because no loyal NanoTrasen worker would dare do such a thing!) -- why else would they carry a 10,000W-power incapacitation tool to work?

"I-it's for self-defence!" Sure. Looks to me like you were looking for trouble... well, it found you, criminal scum.

--

The short version: finagle regular greytiders into perma charges. He's not drawing anti-lizard graffiti, he's inciting a riot for the purposes of racial tension.

This. This is how you deal with shitlers. Slip an officer as a clown when he tries to random search you, cuff him, say some witty oneliner about "Now YOU're under arrest!" and run off? Yeah, you're getting a brig sentence. Slip all the officers and take their shit? Assault of officers + theft + possession of lethal weapons + enemy of the corp + resisting arrest.

Knowing how to apply spacelaw appropriately is the second most important part of being an officer.

[Scones]

Kill people who are being problematic.

Sanitarium has valuable shitter-stopping tools.

Prisoner Transfer is a good place for bad people to take a long nap.

[Tornadium]

The issue is that it is extremely difficult in a chaotic round to know who did exactly what. When you have a bunch of people outside the brig for example attacking officers or trying to break in there are always going to be people who are essentially innocent bystanders.

Logs will show they did nothing and those people can run around and push officers or get in the way and you have nothing in the logs to prove they actually did anything in the first place.

Like for example say 8 guys are attacking an officer and I start lasering into the crowd. If I accidentally kill one of the dudes who was just sorta there and not taking part in the attack am I going to get bwoinked for that? It seems pretty easy to ban bait if thats the case with absolutely no way to prove otherwise.

[CPTANT]

The issue is that it is extremely difficult in a chaotic round to know who did exactly what. When you have a bunch of people outside the brig for example attacking officers or trying to break in there are always going to be people who are essentially innocent bystanders.

Logs will show they did nothing and those people can run around and push officers or get in the way and you have nothing in the logs to prove they actually did anything in the first place.

Like for example say 8 guys are attacking an officer and I start lasering into the crowd. If I accidentally kill one of the dudes who was just sorta there and not taking part in the attack am I going to get bwoinked for that? It seems pretty easy to ban bait if thats the case with absolutely no way to prove otherwise.

I always try to give at least a warning like: "LEAVE THIS AREA OR LETHAL FORCE WILL BE USED" in riot situations, if they stick around after that they are just idiots. But that is not always applicable if an officer is getting lynched I see nothing wrong with firing into the crowd and collateral damage is just an acceptable risk in those situations.

[Tornadium]

The issue is that it is extremely difficult in a chaotic round to know who did exactly what. When you have a bunch of people outside the brig for example attacking officers or trying to break in there are always going to be people who are essentially innocent bystanders.

Logs will show they did nothing and those people can run around and push officers or get in the way and you have nothing in the logs to prove they actually did anything in the first place.

Like for example say 8 guys are attacking an officer and I start lasering into the crowd. If I accidentally kill one of the dudes who was just sorta there and not taking part in the attack am I going to get bwoinked for that? It seems pretty easy to ban bait if thats the case with absolutely no way to prove otherwise.

I always try to give at least a warning like: "LEAVE THIS AREA OR LETHAL FORCE WILL BE USED" in riot situations, if they stick around after that they are just idiots. But that is not always applicable if an officer is getting lynched I see nothing wrong with firing into the crowd and collateral damage is just an acceptable risk in those situations.

Yeah but then you have the "I was out of range to hear the warning" argument.

If you think about it, ban-baiting in byond is excessively easy. There is a big difference of course between lasering some dude to death who literally was just standing there and not involved and lasering one of the dudes murdering an officer. You can't really just execute because you're in proximity. That said, that really isn't the biggest issue. It's the people who for example drag prisoners while you're transporting them to the brig, the people who slip you and grab shit or purposely wait around when you're trying to detain people and grab your shit and bolt as soon as you go down.

Not only does this kind of shit cause a massive fucking headache for security because not only does it get in the way of you doing your job it actively prevents you from doing your job because you've just lost a bunch of gear that is now in the hands of grey tiding shitlords who can and will get involved in any arrests you make.

The trouble I see is that it is literally down to admin interpretation which in some cases I do not trust. Shitheads that fuck with security as a non-antag without any escalation or contact prior just need protection voided to be completely honest. Again big difference between some dude breaking into say medbay to steal something and someone slipping or disarming officers.

[Hibbles]

The trouble I see is that it is literally down to admin interpretation which in some cases I do not trust.

I have no way to say this without sounding insulting, so please forgive me, but welcome to dealing with a human system created and enforced by human beings. What you're asking for is a system of enforcing the rules for one of the most complex video games ever, in a totally social people-driven environment, that is not affected by the judgement of people.

And then your very next sentence is asking for a thing that could only possibly be enforced by the very same admins you don't trust. Or we could throw out half or more of the admin team and just like, start over, maybe scoop up some random people from the server.

I'd love to get me some specific citations of people who have been banned for following Sec policy, I'm sure they exist but some links would help this thread a lot among people who have the capability to do what you want.

My final grumpy thought for the thead is that being expected to explain yourslef after busting out the lethal force is not an unreasonable demand. Being bwoinked is not a punishment, being talked to is not some odious thing. It is a critical and necessary part of running this place. The final straw for Brotemis was when I banned him, explicitly to force him to explain himself. Not to change his beliefs, not to reverse a thing, just to explain himself to either SoS or Dueryn. Not even to me. And he couldn't ever bring himself to suffer the indignity.

Of explaining himself.

It's absurd. If an admin pokes you and you're busy with shit because >Sec, tell them 'please give me a minute to do x and y'. They will respect that, and if they don't and you show me logs of them pressuring you, I'll fuck up that admin on the spot. Feel free to quote this. You're allowed to get to safety or at least the end of a crisis before having to paragraph at us, but you simply must explain yourself.

How would you feel if you got involved in some incident with a dude, ended up dead, and we straight up told you 'we won't even speak to the other person to get their side of the story''?

[Lumbermancer]

Here's a case for you to study from 2 days ago:

I'm the Captain. I go to brig, because Warden (and acting HoS) is yelling on security channel at AI to not let people in because they don't want to leave. I arrive to see 4 or 5 people sitting in chairs they crafted in front of Warden's office. "Fuck the police" is being thrown around. They do not follow orders. I go to armory and grab tear gas, then chuck it into the crowd, Warden immediately follows suit and throws flashbangs. People don't move. More people get in, either asking Ai to open doors or sneaking past careless officers. People are running around the brig. Officers try to baton and remove them, but it's futile they mostly manage to get away or run back in.

I proceed to HoS office, and announce through coms that attempts at Mutiny will be met with bodily harm according to Space Law code 406, and ask again for people to clear brig. People start yelling "harm harm help ai" "murder" and such over common channel. I get back to Warden office and are informed that they released n2o (an act of grand sabotage): indeed Brig is filling with white mist. I proceed to Bridge. I authorize use of lethal force if rioters attack or try to get back into Brig (they mostly cleared it at that point because of n2o) over sec channel, and change AI laws to Robocop. From Captains office I inform over announcement that lethal force has been authorized and ask people once again to stand down.

I go back to Brig, and find a large crowd (5-6 people) gathered in front of it with officers on the sides, now armed by Warden. I come closer to mutineers and ask them for their grievances, that I want to negotiate. I am grabbed and tabbled at Brig entrance post instantly. I yell for help. Chaos ensues, Officers are hesitant, there's some pushing and shoving around. Attacker starts to remove my PDA and Sidearm. I yell "Shoot". Security opens fire. I start to wrestle with attacker, and with the help of friendly Engineer (who were there to scrub the n2o) manage to get my laser gun back. I empty the laser gun into the attacker, killing him (attacker later gets cloned and leaves station in escape shuttle free). At least 2 people are dead on the scene, few wounded, but area is cleared. I order Security to not obstruct removal of dead bodies and wounded. Security puts in perma few other instigators (including one that is caught later with my my PDA) at their own discretion.

Tensions remain high, among both sec personnel and station employees. Many officers suggest I should call ERT so they can handle it. I send request but it's unanswered.

And while all this happened, the real antagonists exploited the situation. HoP, a Changeling, attempted to murder me when I tried to retrieve my spare ID. And Atmos traitor filled the station with plasma, that forced a shuttle call and evacuation.

Fin.

[Falamazeer]

>Making the fight about simple questions.

Nobody is denying the right or need to investigate claims against security, But it doesn't end there, Roadhogs example is a decent one, got banned for spacing a geneticist who interfered in his duties, got him mobbed in medbay, resisted arrest, and tried to monkey him, Was even told yes by sticky who then banned him for taking him at his word and going through with his plan.

There's more, I've been sternly talked to for lighting a man on fire as the detective, bare bones it looks pretty bad, But the devil is in the details,Let's watch:

Spoiler:

-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-SubtleGraces: Hey there, can I ask you about what happened with Ben Shekelstein?
Click on the administrator's name to reply.
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-SubtleGraces: Hello, you there?
Click on the administrator's name to reply.
PM to-Admins: yo wassup??
Admin PM from-SubtleGraces: What happened with Ben Shekelstein?
PM to-Admins: Ah, one sec, long story
PM to-Admins: I go to the bar and do my thing, drinking and goofing off as per detective handbook, Bartender and chef are having a disagreement and the bartender brings the chef down, I shoot the chef as he seems to be the aggressor, he was in the bar where he has no access,
PM to-Admins: as he is stunned bartender flushes him in disposal, and he screams bloody murder about a rogue detective, getting me rushed by some assistant who ended up stealing my gun and shooting me with it, then I think he spaced it
Admin PM from-SubtleGraces: Alright, sounds like you were quite right to arrest him. But setting him on fire and lasering him to death?
PM to-Admins: Then I get my ass handed to me by two assistants, arrested because people keep screaming I'm rogue and demoted, So I went a little rogue disarmed the captain for his Egun stole his laser and took my vengeance
Admin PM from-SubtleGraces: Hrm.
PM to-Admins: He pretty much fucked my round because I shot him because he ran in on the bartender
PM to-Admins: Also, should mention, but I forgot, I did infact set him on fire with a zippo, Not too classy but by then I was no longer a detective, I'd been brigged and dicked by warden
PM to-Admins: In my defense I didn't know the bartender was going to flush him, and he had no right to get me mobbed like that most of my disasters happened while he was getting his way out of disposals but still, radio crying gets results, especially against sec types
PM to-Admins: Also, Last bit of my defense, setting a man on fire and disarming the captain for the means to shoot that man to death may deserve a ban, but I got my ass kicked, spent most my round in red from all the punching, spent another good chunk in the brig, and was in fact demoted by the time I stepped out of line, So I accept your judgement on a difficult case
Admin PM from-SubtleGraces: I'm leaning towards leniency, but I'm consulting on it. Thanks for your time, I'll get back to you in a tick.
PM to-Admins: it's all good, too far is too far and this is borderline, perhaps if I had failed this never would have mattered , but a luck spree got the guns in my hand, and I ran into the chef before I got tased in response. ban or non, this does make a good story, also he's been cloned and suchlike so at least there is that
Admin PM from-SubtleGraces: Alright. All things considered, it seems like an IC case. Can I just ask you not to take it to that point as a member of security in the future? He's got a bit of a history, and I'd believe this was pure malic in getting you lynched. Don't worry about it. Appreciate your time.
PM to-Admins: it's all good. I usually play the name Ham Sammich, sec officer. so lynching isn't completely new to me.

So a checklist for the logs, Douche runs in on the bartender and attacks, Detective shoots, Bartender flushes, I have no control of that, He screams over the radio that I'm rogue multiple time, I get mobbed and robbed, During my self defense I'm arrested, I don't blame the officer, Rogue detective on radio, and I'm fist fighting two people, looks bad. I'm completely stripped of everything down to my ID, demoted, and I serve a lengthy sentence. It should be noted at no point did I arrest this guy, that's a mistake by subtlegraces, I set him on fire shortly after running into him in the halls and run off, Shortly after I see the captain with his gun out, I disarm him and run off with the laser before taking my final well deserved vengeance, I accidently shot tim ebow once during the killing of the douche, and he cablecuffs me and leaves me in the dorms locked to a bed, so I ghost out, tired of trying.

That's a completely justified murder, and I stand by it, But I very easily could have been job-banned for it by another admin.
And where are the logs of ben shecklestein getting grilled for screaming his godamn ass off over a detective doing his job?
This happens with borgs, but nobody gives a shit when it's grey tide yelling "Sec rogue, blow the loyalty implant"

Two similar examples, and the inconsistency thereof, Roadhog might have been even more justified than I considering the brig was gone, the HoS had fucked off etc etc. When being PMed as security, the burden of proof is most often on you, and it's a flip of the coin how it all turns out.

[John_Oxford]

Permabrig them, throw them in the gulag, forceborg them so they're actually useful, etc. In extreme situations just kill them.

>b-but admins will ban me

And I'll unban you.

I fully support greytiding being an IC issue, but that means the assistants in question have to suck it up and not bitch in adminhelp when security administrates an IC solution in the form of a harm baton to the skull.

Disclaimer: If you start executing the clown for climbing onto the HoP table or an assistant for running into the open brig doors you're still going to get in trouble. I mean genuine cases of greytide like assistants walling off the brig, breaking into places en masse, stealing security weapons, etc.

Ahem.
You have your prioritys in line.
You deserve a medal.
Kor for petty officer master sergeant of the headmins second glass to the max.

[Malkevin]

Admins asking questions after you've just blown away some guy are as annoying as lawyers pestering you after the same, with the added stress that admins actually do have power over you.

You know after security has blown away a rioter they're probably busy dealing with the ic cluster fuck. The amount of times where I've been the hos where I've had to deploy lethal force and I get admin pmed whilst I'm busy coordinating sec to either deescalate or dominate the conflict is aggravating.


Admins have observation tools for a reason, would it kill you to follow them for a bit, look at the situation they're in, listen to comms traffic.
You'll probably pick up what happened just from that.

If the person that ahelped starts moaning, tell them you are investigating, because that's what you are doing.
Ask them to give more details, you know how many dopes will hang themselves if you give them enough rope?

If you jump to where the incident happened and find there's a riot going on then you don't need to investigate further because rev rules apply

[Steelpoint]

To be fair Malk in all cases where a admin has AdminPMed me they always waited until I had a opportunity to talk to them before we had any conversation, a simple "give me a moment" is usually good enough.

Your correct in your reasoning, but any good admin will see what your doing and will wait for you to secure the area and get somewhere safer to be able to talk to the admin.

[Falamazeer]

that is the case, No admin has demanded immediate attention in a long ass time, I got a "No not one second, now." from errorage once, but that speaks for itself in the timeline, And I'd told him that once already, and then forgot him due to multiple shenanigans going on at once so It looked like stalling.

Every admin I've dealt with is more than reasonable about giving you enough time to get safe and wrap up your buisness, But that's not really the problem as I see it, It's the inconsistency in admins, some have realistic ideas about security policy, and some don't, so it's down to a roll of the dice for who is on for whether or not your permabrigged asshole is gonna be set loose be it from being forced to do it yourself, or given antag to hunt you down and murder you.

[Steelpoint]

That is the main, and in my opinion only, problem with admin-sec interactions in game.

I remember back when SoS was host where whenever SoS was on the server I would either sit in my office or not play security, my few interactions with SoS as HoS left a sour taste in my mouth and I know from experience that admins have very wildly different opinions on security and how it should operate in game.

Honestly if I had the power I would encourage admins to let security do what it's doing during a round and only take action after the rounds over, judge the officers in question after their actions have been played out and not while they are doing them.

[Tornadium]

It's a symptom of the player base more than anything else, it is worse for security (Significantly) but it applies across the entire game at the moment.

Players actively try to ban bait and get other people dunked because their "fun" got ruined. That's basically what it boils down to. It's infuriating to have to explain your actions every 5 minutes (in some rounds, not all obviously) because shitbagmcgrief didn't like that he got thrown in perma for trying to loot the armory.

Honestly there needs to be a bigger penalty for making shitty adminhelps and complaints.

[rdght91]

Honestly there needs to be a bigger penalty for making shitty adminhelps and complaints.

Please this. People who tide and whine about it rather than take their punishment like an adult should have to start their next round in the gulag with a 300 point card to demonstrate they can contribute.

[Stickymayhem]

>There needs to be fewer rules
>But why doesn't this have a ruling yet

>We need to punish people who adminhelp badly
>But my adminhelps are never ever bad

>We need to just shut down idiots who are just around to shit things up
>Oh my god you rule zeroed someone how could you abuse!!!

When you guys say shit like this it's wishful thinking based on the idea that you or a hundred other people aren't going to immediately abuse it or scream about it or something like that.

[rdght91]

>There needs to be fewer rules
>But why doesn't this have a ruling yet

>We need to punish people who adminhelp badly
>But my adminhelps are never ever bad

>We need to just shut down idiots who are just around to shit things up
>Oh my god you rule zeroed someone how could you abuse!!!

When you guys say shit like this it's wishful thinking based on the idea that you or a hundred other people aren't going to immediately abuse it or scream about it or something like that.

What point are you making? We shouldn't do anything you don't like because there might be SOME controversy?

[Stickymayhem]

No I'm making the point that when people push for things like stomping on people for shit ahelps the backlash is usually so big that it's unreasonable to work with.

And also that no one really considers that they can be shit too and get appalled when they are accused as such, so when these policies come back around to haunt the people who pushed for them they quickly lose any kind of popularity.

[rdght91]

No I'm making the point that when people push for things like stomping on people for shit ahelps the backlash is usually so big that it's unreasonable to work with.

And also that no one really considers that they can be shit too and get appalled when they are accused as such, so when these policies come back around to haunt the people who pushed for them they quickly lose any kind of popularity.

1. So? If it's extreme enough I don't see why not.

2. Is that directed at me?

[Dicksaw McGraw]

>You are playing a game where you are not fully in control of everything. You will be put into situations beyond your control, which will result in some rounds being ruined for you. Man up and deal with it.

So why is Security dunking on a bunch of greytiders something they have to be afraid of doing due to the fear of ding dong bannu? Why not have them be accountable for their actions IC instead? If you're witness to legitimate shitcurity, complain to the HoS, HoP, AI, or Captain. If you get killed by sec, assume they were an antag, you were a colossal shitlord, or that you refused to obey their demands under martial law(re: shitlord), instead of crying about it in ahelp and essentially making it so security don't have any actual power to protect the station due to OOC bullshit.

[DemonFiren]

Excuse me, but "antag sec"? No.

[Falamazeer]

Not as uncommon as you seem to think Demon firen.
Changelings, transferred traitors, etc etc. it's really not all that unheard of.

Not an every day thing but it does happen

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Not as uncommon as you seem to think Demon firen.
Changelings, transferred traitors, etc etc. it's really not all that unheard of.

Not an every day thing but it does happen

It's also the reason that any unrequested fresh officers who walk into the brig unannounced without an implant can expect a stun, cuff, demotion before being lobbed out in cuffs.
And then the same for the HOP.

[Luke Cox]

If they're just being minor shits, I'll brig on the first three offenses, then perma. If they're causing minor to moderate damage, same as before but implants on the second brig. If they're causing irreparable damage (we're talking department-breaking), crit or kill somebody intentionally I'll perma them or if I can get the captain's approval, execute them (Ideally public. Transfer room executions are lame as shit for all parties involved).