Roundstart suiciding in "non-important" roles

[Perakp]

We currently do not have a policy on roundstart suiciding, other than for important roles such as heads of staff, AI or antagonist (Rule 6).

Why roundstart suiciding is a problem from gameplay perspective:
- Suiciders are a security threat because they make it easier to steal a false identity. Taking an ID off a suicider is a no-risk way of obtaining access. This is a balance issue.
- Suiciders take up jobs slots, making it more difficult to assess if a department is understaffed.
- Suiciders can be assasination targets, a traitor could effectively have one less objective.

A code solution for this problem would be to add a "roll-for-antag" button, but for the time being, a revised policy might be needed. Is this behaviour something I should be adminhelping about?

For reference, this was just merged: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/5240

[Saegrimr]

I've been watching and confronting engineers who do that shit at roundstart. Nobody likes a single dead engineer with no singulo set up.

[QuartzCrystal]

For me, if you have to log off or whatever, just fucking space yourself or make up a way that you kill yourself by accident. It breaks my immersions so much when you walk into chemistry to find a guy lying there dead by suicide.

[Saegrimr]

Because that wont always be "my grandma died" or "dog threw up in floor"

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Reason for suicide is pointless. Just adminhelp.

Tracking could be implemented, but there would always be a way to avoid it and it would potentially harm someone who has a legitimate reason to leave. I think it's fine to leave it up to admins. May be some simple tracking for the past 5-10 rounds should also be a thing, but we shouldn't rely on it too much.

[Saegrimr]

We do have some tracking for it, its just not really an actionable thing unless its an important role like silicons/heads. And in some other edge cases like people suiciding to avoid being culted.
Although with more people going engineer/cargo for the maint access to fuck around, its starting to get some attention.

[paprika]

The temptation to remove suicide like baystation is extremely high, since we have ghosting and deathgasping in crit anyway.

[Saegrimr]

Its more beneficial to have it anyway. People will still toolbox, space, ignite, or find other ways to kill themselves. Suicide at least lets medbay and people who find them know to not bother cloning them.

[paprika]

Also roundstart mass greyshirt suicide is rather funny

[oranges]

This is probably part of a more general trend of people taking a job and then not playing it. Like the people spawning as cargo techs and being maint batmen instead.

[tolstovskiy]

I think we should finally start using dorms. No, not only for cult meetings. Instead of suiciding or going braindead in some random place just pick yourself a room, lock it and go to sleep(or kill yourself whatever). Bonus points for handing over your id to hop if you're planning to leave round for good. Downside is that everyone will know where to steal id cards but I don't think we should go full bay with "don't touch anything on braindeads", security will finally learn to patrol around dorms(poor cultists). Also roundstart suicides should be ban worthy after 3-5 warning.

[Subtle]

It does start seeming to become an issue when it's about "antag-rolling," or as Saegrimr and Oranges state, abandoning SE and similar jobs because you rolled badly.

Asking people to go braindead/suicide in a specific place or way does seem excessive, but at the same time I'd like to be able to question a greyrainbowshirt who spent the last five rounds joining, dying, then going AFK until they get them sweet-sweet antags or the exact job they want. (Which in all honesty is something we do already) Perhaps a more realistic approach would be to identify those players and keep a tally of their roundstart suicide habits via notes. A few warnings sound good too.

An antagonist ban, or perhaps merely stepping in and saying "we can just ban you from X job if you never want to get it again" would easily resolve these issues.

[paprika]

Admins should now be able to edit the crew manifest, AKA open/close job slots from the admin panel, thus they can just remove people who suicide at roundstart in important roles and open their slot up again.

[Ikarrus]

Admins should now be able to edit the crew manifest, AKA open/close job slots from the admin panel, thus they can just remove people who suicide at roundstart in important roles and open their slot up again.

They already could if they know how to debug the jobs controller.

Git gud.

[QuartzCrystal]

Back on track, there are roles (detective, QM, etc) that people do like to play but if someone disconnects or suicides at round start they are preventing someone playing that role. I personally would like this job-bannable.

[MrGlasses]

Guys, if you see someone has a habit of suiciding, DCing or ghosting at roundstart as a certain job, adminhelp it, or make a note to tell an admin. If it's something that happens on a regular basis, action might be taken.

[miggles]

assistants should be the only role allowed to do it without punishment
nobody cares about a dead assistant
other roles should at least hand off their stuff or go braindead in the dorms or something

[Erbbu]

Nobody really cares about dead assistants now that they don't even mean free maint access.

[cedarbridge]

Nobody really cares about dead assistants now that they don't even mean free maint access.

Basically this. Unsurprisingly, removing assistant maint cut down the number of "rollan for antag" assistants.

[mrpain]

If admins notice a pattern of someone heavily, and I mean HEAVILY doing it, they should be free to antag ban them for a short amount of time. If you don't want the job, why did you enable it? That being said, someone shouldn't be forced to play a round they dont want to/can't play.

[Timbrewolf]

I think it might be beneficial to expand our head jobban rule to any job for which there is only a single one of on the station.

Like has been said, especially now that we're averaging such high numbers per round, there's a demand for prettymuch everything. If you're going to take up that slot and then immediately be a wet blanket and kill yourself, some kind of weeklong "cooldown" before you can be that job again might make you either reconsider having it in your prefs, or capitalize on chances to play it.

[Hibbles]

Sounds reasonable.

[cedarbridge]

I think it might be beneficial to expand our head jobban rule to any job for which there is only a single one of on the station.

Like has been said, especially now that we're averaging such high numbers per round, there's a demand for prettymuch everything. If you're going to take up that slot and then immediately be a wet blanket and kill yourself, some kind of weeklong "cooldown" before you can be that job again might make you either reconsider having it in your prefs, or capitalize on chances to play it.

This is the tangible effect of suiciding in high or "capacity" sized rounds. Two chemist slots, one suicides at roundstart, now the other guy who actually wanted to roll chemist for the sake of being chemist is stuck either elsewhere or as an assistant. It really does affect way more than just the guy removing them self from the round.

[paprika]

Kind of like CS:GO matchmaking. It makes you value the times you spend in the jobs more when leaving or fucking around instead of capitalizing on them means you get increasingly longer bans from them. 100% agree with that.

[hanshansenhansson]

Why not introduce an "antag-token" system. Every time you escape on the shuttle, you get a token. You use a token when you roll-antag. No token, no antag. Normal players should be unable to really use up their tokens and would see no limitations.

Has the bonus effect of encouraging people to survive, too.

[Erbbu]

Honestly I would like to see some other way to roll antag than just by having some lucky dice. Like perhaps have the RNG roll plus a token system that guarantees that you will get it in a reasonable time even if unlucky.

[Steelpoint]

I do recall some Trouble in Terrorist Town gmod servers (Essentially a Traitor game) have a "karma" system where as you play the game you gain points to spend on minor things, usually they are minor cosmetic items but at a large point sum you could guarantee a Traitor slot, though if even then you did not get it (too many people buying antag) you would get refunded. That did mean that even if you did get on a long streak of not playing as a traitor, you could eventually guarantee being able to play as one.

I'm personally not decided if such a system is a good or bad thing, there would have to be a upper cap on the amount of points you could get though.

[fleure]

Karma systems have been discussed before (and perhaps even implemented at some point?) but it's mostly considered a failure, granted these systems were based off players doling out karma to each other rather than an automated input.

Personally I like an0n3's reasoning and idea.

[Erbbu]

An automated 1 week job ban for rolling an important job, checking for antag and suiciding when you didn't get it? I know some people would just choose to take the ban just have a roll at that sweet engi/atmos/scientist/etc. antag.

[Aurx]

An automated 1 week job ban for rolling an important job, checking for antag and suiciding when you didn't get it? I know some people would just choose to take the ban just have a roll at that sweet engi/atmos/scientist/etc. antag.

Great idea!

By what algorithm do we decide if somebody was checking for antag and ditching? Please remember that it will need to account properly for suicides, logging out, simply going inactive, fucking off to spess/maint/the bar/security to fuck around/grief/die "accidentally", and failure to preform. Given that it will have to be open source, how do we prevent it from being gamed by anyone who bothers to read the code? How should we handle appeals resulting from jobbans the automated system places? How do we prevent false positives caused by genuine need-to-leave, network failures, genuine early deaths, or legitimate cause to suicide?

[Erbbu]

No I was referring to Anon3's idea, seeing if I understood it right.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Automated system is pretty much out of question. Closest we could get is dead/suicide/ghost/logoff/afk list popping up for admins to investigate like the one that's currently for heads only.

[Cheridan]

The temptation to remove suicide like baystation is extremely high, since we have ghosting and deathgasping in crit anyway.

This wa the plan at one point, which was why ghosting was implemented and "fun" suicide_acts like hanging yourself with wire on stools were added.