You can be a good guy antag if you are implanted

[Scott]

But you can't willingly be implanted. Being implanted is automatic red text unless you lose the implant.

[Saegrimr]

You can already do this, there's no policy to stop antags from siding with security.
However this also means they don't have to follow their loyalty implant unless its rev or cult, something I personally wouldn't mind seeing change in some way.

[Scott]

This would imply you cannot be a friendly antag.

[QuartzCrystal]

Sometimes I purposefully try to be a good guy antag, usually if I roll traitor as clown (The Owl).

[Scott]

As long as you don't side with Security. Being a crazed vigilante is fine, purge crime with death.

[leibniz]

Giving loyalty implants more use is a bad idea.

[QuartzCrystal]

The point is though, antags can do whatever they want, including helping security if they so wish. Hell, helping security catch a few traitors is a great way to not be suspected of being one yourself.

[Scott]

Yawn

[Random Players]

I would honestly like it if the 'loyalty' part of loyalty implant was a bit more enforced. It would also give not-quite-traitor-or-rev people more of a excuse to cry murder at sec trying to implant them and thus excuse to said traitors and revs.

Just rules that you can't deliberatly act against the interests of the station and, if it doesn't already exist, admins getting notified when someone with a loyalty implant is having removal surgery. (Which wouldn't be allowed to knowingly undergo, though i'm sure that's the case already.)

[cedarbridge]

You can already do this, there's no policy to stop antags from siding with security.
However this also means they don't have to follow their loyalty implant unless its rev or cult, something I personally wouldn't mind seeing change in some way.

Fun fact: Implants only stop cult conversion and do not actually deconvert.

[callanrockslol]

You can already do this, there's no policy to stop antags from siding with security.
However this also means they don't have to follow their loyalty implant unless its rev or cult, something I personally wouldn't mind seeing change in some way.

Fun fact: Implants only stop cult conversion and do not actually deconvert.

You are now aware that the admins dont really know that much about the intricities of this game when it comes down to it

[Saegrimr]

You are now aware that the admins dont really know that much about the intricities of this game when it comes down to it

Do I really have to spell out the intricacies of things when making offhand comments about them, or are you just here for the snarky comments?

[cedarbridge]

You can already do this, there's no policy to stop antags from siding with security.
However this also means they don't have to follow their loyalty implant unless its rev or cult, something I personally wouldn't mind seeing change in some way.

Fun fact: Implants only stop cult conversion and do not actually deconvert.

You are now aware that the admins dont really know that much about the intricities of this game when it comes down to it

That was more of a general FYI aided by a quote about the subject. Nothing was implied there.

[callanrockslol]

You are now aware that the admins dont really know that much about the intricities of this game when it comes down to it

Do I really have to spell out the intricacies of things when making offhand comments about them, or are you just here for the snarky comments?

Both.

[Timbrewolf]

I mistakenly voted yes because I didn't quite understand what OP actually means here.

I voted "yes" because an antag could already cooperate with security and assumed that's what you meant. He could hang out and run alongside them if he really wanted to helping them arrest people or whatever.

If you mean that a regular traitor should be able to be implanted by sec, and still run around killing whoever they feel like as an accessory to sec ("it's okay because he's an antag") and get their greentext or whatever then no.

No 1000 times no.

Because if you do that, than you're suggesting a friendly antagonist basically becomes an always valid execution machine for shitcurity to use and it circumvents a whole lot of ruling and policy about how people are expected to be treated by security. Imagine this:

Clown made a sec officer slip and fall on his PDA as a joke?
If you REALLY care you could brig him for a short sentence on a charge of maybe assaulting an officer or something.

But if you had a friendly antagonist you could just tell him to kill the clown on the spot. You would assume it was valid because an antagonist did it, completely ignoring the fact that you're assisting and directing an execution that doesn't meet the crime.

There's already a precedent for this involving changelings. That you can't just feed everyone who gets arrested to the changeling and say "Well I didn't do it, the changeling did!"

If an antagonist is running alongside sec and they're chasing a normal criminal for a nominal charge, and the traitor busts out a revolver and blows the guy away they can't just pat him on the back and say job well done. Now they're all helping one antagonist run around the station and kill people. That's no good. If he wants to use his cool traitor items to help them apprehend criminals and stuff that's his business, but if he commits crimes in doing so they should be arresting him too. If you slap the cuffs on someone and he slaps C4 on them afterward, don't high-five the guy for a job well done.

[paprika]

Sort of unrelated but please ban people from DA if they reveal themselves as a double agent and their target at roundstart or for immediate sec protection it's funny once and I've even done it but yeah no that's not what double agent is for untick if you don't want to be hunted thanks

[callanrockslol]

Sort of unrelated but please ban people from DA if they reveal themselves as a double agent and their target at roundstart or for immediate sec protection it's funny once and I've even done it but yeah no that's not what double agent is for untick if you don't want to be hunted thanks

Yes holy shit this fuck anyone that does that.

Double agents shouldn't even get full antag privilege they're so fucking annoying.

[Scott]

I mistakenly voted yes because I didn't quite understand what OP actually means here.

I voted "yes" because an antag could already cooperate with security and assumed that's what you meant. He could hang out and run alongside them if he really wanted to helping them arrest people or whatever.

If you mean that a regular traitor should be able to be implanted by sec, and still run around killing whoever they feel like as an accessory to sec ("it's okay because he's an antag") and get their greentext or whatever then no.

No 1000 times no.

Because if you do that, than you're suggesting a friendly antagonist basically becomes an always valid execution machine for shitcurity to use and it circumvents a whole lot of ruling and policy about how people are expected to be treated by security. Imagine this:

Clown made a sec officer slip and fall on his PDA as a joke?
If you REALLY care you could brig him for a short sentence on a charge of maybe assaulting an officer or something.

But if you had a friendly antagonist you could just tell him to kill the clown on the spot. You would assume it was valid because an antagonist did it, completely ignoring the fact that you're assisting and directing an execution that doesn't meet the crime.

There's already a precedent for this involving changelings. That you can't just feed everyone who gets arrested to the changeling and say "Well I didn't do it, the changeling did!"

If an antagonist is running alongside sec and they're chasing a normal criminal for a nominal charge, and the traitor busts out a revolver and blows the guy away they can't just pat him on the back and say job well done. Now they're all helping one antagonist run around the station and kill people. That's no good. If he wants to use his cool traitor items to help them apprehend criminals and stuff that's his business, but if he commits crimes in doing so they should be arresting him too. If you slap the cuffs on someone and he slaps C4 on them afterward, don't high-five the guy for a job well done.

For the implanted antag not be able to do antag things would imply he would lose antag status, and Security could just implant every person brought into the brig and rid the round of antagonists. I don't like that.

I do agree that Security using an antag buddy to get away with things is also terrible. You present a problem with my suggestion and I don't have any solutions for it.

The only thing I can think of to approach this is allowing the implanted antag to kill other obvious antags, but Security already does that anyways. Policy would have to change to not allow Security to use lethal force and that's not a good change, I think.

[cedarbridge]

For the implanted antag not be able to do antag things would imply he would lose antag status, and Security could just implant every person brought into the brig and rid the round of antagonists. I don't like that.

I do agree that Security using an antag buddy to get away with things is also terrible. You present a problem with my suggestion and I don't have any solutions for it.

The only thing I can think of to approach this is allowing the implanted antag to kill other obvious antags, but Security already does that anyways. Policy would have to change to not allow Security to use lethal force and that's not a good change, I think.

I don't think that's the argument here. The implanted antag can do whatever he wants as an antag because implants don't obligate them to do anything anyway. That said, sec cannot simply look the other way to that same antag doing obviously illegal things just because they're implanted. Similarly, I'd brig/demote any officer doing clearly illegal things worthy of punishment while implanted.

[Pandarsenic]

I was going to post but An0n3 summed it up for me.

[youngbuckliontiger]

I always side with security when I'm changeling because they usually treat me for humanified monkey,criminals to be executed and suicidees for dinner if I use my power for the public good.Sometimes the Captain makes me his personal bodyguard and gives me all access for it. I usually get greentext as changeling with over 20 absorbs because of this. Some people call me a bad ling because of this but it is just my strategy and i love doing it.

I vote for No because I don't wanna get redtext when I ally with security every time I get implanted by them when I am a traitor or changeling.

[Timbrewolf]

Your post is an incredibly compelling argument to implement automatic redtext for any antag with an implant in them.

You're not really trying to antag and you're actively making the game more difficult than our balance intends it to be by aiding the rest of the station in combating/executing everyone else.

You've forgone the intent of the antagonist role in order to simply pick the easiest way to "win" the game.
This is bad.

[youngbuckliontiger]

Well the greentext is an added bonus but it's fun to side with security.
I've been bored with just murderboning people and absorbing them so im trying soemthing new and i find it fun.

[Spacemanspark]

The point of antags are what their objectives tell them to do.
However you go about doing those objectives are up to you.
There should also be many ways to fail at this. It's not SUPPOSED to be easy, it's not SUPPOSED to be given to you.
Siding with security is really no fun for others, really, and it's cheap. If adding the addition of loyalty implants would help prevent people who want to take the cheap route from doing so, the please do it. While they can still choose to assist security, they are now FAILURES. They have FAILED to do their task properly. There are many, MANY other ways to accomplish your roles. Whether you RP it out, just silently stealth it, or just go all out on it.
This addition might also allow players back into the game. If they were loyalty implanted, they would be free to go, because they can't cause more harm to the station. Works better instead of permabrigging, borging, and execution, which is, as I understand, an angle we're trying to go for? Keeping players in the game?
And no, you can't go get the damn implant removed, that would be acting against the loyalty implant.

[Saegrimr]

Honestly, most people would just want to run around and be a prick with their antag status and not care about greentext anyway. If we're going to go any route it should remove their traitor status entirely so they can't go on killsprees in the name of security. Changelings excluded, of course. That's a whole different set of problems.

[oranges]

If people want to friendly antag thats fine, just don't complain if you get dunked by powergamer #100

[MMMiracles]

Whole concept of loyality implants causing instant red text seems really, really abusable. I don't like the idea of potential mass implanting, followed by force implants if you refuse to willingly get one, because, "why else would you deny an implant? Must be a dirty traitor". Unless there's heavy observation with implanting during rounds, this will almost guaranteed to be abused.

[Steelpoint]

What Miracles said, unless Loyalty Implant usages was heavily monitored this would be a easily abusable thing Security can do.

Not to mention this could get Security in trouble if they suspect there is a revolution going on, if they implant someone and they are wrong they could get in big trouble because "Why are you implanting people?".

I can't really agree with this idea.

[Timbrewolf]

People who run around randomly implanting people outside of confirmed cult/rev already get questioned.
We wouldn't have to change anything on that end because it's already something we discourage.

If any badmins see a friendly antag doing this it's as easy as adding a custom objective "Remain free of any loyalty implants" while informing the Captain/HoS that they need to get that guy implanted if they want to keep powergaming it up. Remember to manually toggle the objective pass/fail as they are implanted or find a way to get rid of it.

[paprika]

The AI doesn't know what the captain is uploading until it's already been uploaded. Unless the captain actually says what he's uploading, and that's like breaking the #1 rule of uploading new laws.

[Spacemanspark]

Killing yourself (Unless you use the suicide command.) would also be against it, since, when you're cloned, you lose the implant.

[Timbrewolf]

I don't think there's any source material for what the IC effects of a loyalty implant are.

OOC we know they prevent people from being converted into antagonists, and in some cases remove antagonist status. We have a precedent that getting deconverted as a cultist or rev and then purposely running back to rejoin the group is ubadgitbanned behavior by itself, going the extra mile to get a loyalty implant removed to make that happen is just going the extra mile to be shit.

But what are we saying then, that any antagonist who gets loyalty implanted is automatic instafail redtext? That doesn't seem very sporting either. I think from a perspective of trying to keep the gameplay balanced it would be alright for a traitor or changeling to later attempt to get the implant removed somehow.

[paprika]

Here I'll make up headcanon lore that I'm pretty sure has already been written down before.

- Loyalty implants brainwash to keep high-risk NT employees in line so NT can trust them with weapons/etc.
- Traitors and double agents are already pre-implanted with syndicate implants that allow them to be 'sleeper agents' and activate once the shift starts.
- Revolutionary leaders also have this, as they are syndicate agents staging a mutiny to capture the station. They use flash devices to convert people temporarily but this men-in-black style brainwashing isn't as effective as the loyalty implants and can easily be overpowered by something physically implanted into your head. This is why the loyalty implants do not work on rev heads, also for gameplay reasons.
- Changelings aren't affected by loyalty implants because they are designed for humans and changelings occupy their hosts anyway.
- Wizards have powerful majjyks and have sworn themselves to a life of powerful sexless spell casting but why would you put a loyalty implant into a wizard anyway.
- Cult brainwashing is literally in your blood, the only thing that can neutralize that kind of powerful blood magic is holy water. Loyalty implants can prevent your weak mind from succumbing to the cult magics through the power of good ol fashion brainwashing.
- Nuke ops follow the same thing as traitors.
- Blobs are, uh, why would you loyalty implant a blob, if you do that congrats you win the security peace prize

There now they have IC reasoning to be complete bullshit for gameplay purposes.

I also think admins should ban traitors/DAs who go straight to sec and tell them they're traitors, because while it doesn't happen very often, the syndicate probably spends a lot of money training and teleporting gear to their agents and it makes less sense than any other avenue of roleplay I've seen from traitors. Just untick them if you don't want to play them, you're wasting antag slots.

[oranges]

Remove implants

[ExplosiveCrate]

Remove rev and cult first

[Cipher3]

Also remove nuke ops, traitor, changeling, and blob.