What is the HoP's place in the chain of command

[TZK13]

Central Command Update

DL-NT-Security-Retards

Org Chart:

Captain -> HoP -> Other Heads of Staff.

That's what SoS had to say in regards to me telling the HoP that he is not second in command over the issue of him releasing a prisoner if the Captain didn't object while we had an able HoS.

As can be seen on the wiki and what I had viewed as the established order the HoP is only second in command in terms of promotion when the Captain isn't available, he is not second in command in terms of being able to command the departments of other heads of staff.

Also I know it's the host of the server and everything but it's still best to establish this for IC interactions.

[Steelpoint]

Well this is going to be fun.

As far as I know, from my entire time on this server, the Head of Personal has always been a equal to all other heads of staff. However, the Head of Personal is typically seen as the first in the line of succession if the Captain goes missing or dies.

If we want to make the Head of Personal the second in command, he needs to get a job and title change to a Lieutenant.

[TZK13]

He also needs antag protection if he's going to be considered the second in command with power over every department.

[Steelpoint]

My main concern with making the Head of Personal a new Lieutenant and as the acting second in command is essentially turning the HoP role into, what is essentially, a Head of Security who spends all his time guarding the Captain.

It would also mean we would have to create the Lieutenant as a separate role from the Head of Personal, who would still be managing cargo and the ID console.

[Scott]

It's exactly as you said, he's only above the other heads of staff in the absence of a captain. If there's a captain, he's the guy who can use the ID computers and manages cargo and service and he shouldn't try to interfere with other departments if their heads don't want to.

It only seems logical that the HoP should get antag protection, but the meta...

[Aurx]

I'll go ping SoS and direct him here to see if he's making a policy change, but currently the chain-of-command page on the wiki matches the policy I know.

[callanrockslol]

The HoP is in charge of all the shitty civilian jobs nobody cares about when the captain is still alive, but takes over his responsibilities when they stop being alive, until then they are equal with the other heads and shouldn't be barging in to other departments and causing trouble if they don't want to get forcibly demoted by an irritated coworker.

[peoplearestrange]

As far as I know, from my entire time on this server, the Head of Personal has always been a equal to all other heads of staff. However, the Head of Personal is typically seen as the first in the line of succession if the Captain goes missing or dies..

This is how I've always know it as well. They are a head, like all other heads and therefore of equal 'power'. The only difference is, as you say, the HoP can step up as acting captain should the actual Captain not be on station or dead. I saw this mainly as the HoP's office is nearest the captains and also they have the ablitity to give themselves access should they need it.

As far as actual orders in other departments (such as prisoner stuff) the relevant HOD should still be in charage even if the HoP is acting Captain (i.e. the HoS would still deal with prisoner stuff with only the captain themselves ever overruling them).


I have to admit I acted like a superior and a bit asshole to the RD who took over as acting captain before the HoP (me at the time) was on station. I should have not done this (however they were also wearing the captains space helmet and carapace which seems like a dick move for when the captain finally shows up).

[cedarbridge]

As far as I know, from my entire time on this server, the Head of Personal has always been a equal to all other heads of staff. However, the Head of Personal is typically seen as the first in the line of succession if the Captain goes missing or dies..

This is how I've always know it as well. They are a head, like all other heads and therefore of equal 'power'. The only difference is, as you say, the HoP can step up as acting captain should the actual Captain not be on station or dead. I saw this mainly as the HoP's office is nearest the captains and also they have the ablitity to give themselves access should they need it.

As far as actual orders in other departments (such as prisoner stuff) the relevant HOD should still be in charage even if the HoP is acting Captain (i.e. the HoS would still deal with prisoner stuff with only the captain themselves ever overruling them).


I have to admit I acted like a superior and a bit asshole to the RD who took over as acting captain before the HoP (me at the time) was on station. I should have not done this (however they were also wearing the captains space helmet and carapace which seems like a dick move for when the captain finally shows up).

The real only reasons the HoP takes over for the captain in most cases is after the initial job changes and giving the roundstart antags access they shouldn't have, the HoP doesn't really have too much to do. Their departments are mostly self-managing and its very rare to see creative HoPs manage those departments directly (other than cargo I guess.) I have seen RDs and occasionally very ambitious HoSs take over captainship in place of the HoP for various reasons (mostly force of personality) so its not really a "rule" per se that the HoP instantly takes the crown when the king dies.

[Gamarr]

Always tried to follow the hierarchy a certain way myself, with some logic figured out over time. The hop isn't a Second in the sense that he is the literal Right Hand of the Captain, but that in the absence of the Captain, he is the one expected first to step up and fill said position. Now, there is a reason for this, and they are a couple good ones.

He, out of all the other Heads, has the access immediately at his fingertips to resolve the situation. It is expected/demanded that he vet and promote someone to his present position(nobody ever said it can't be a sec officer either but nobody ever seems to think of this) while uplifting himself to the captains position legitimately (this would mean closing the damn captain slot on the ID manifest so a new one doesn't appear like a good paper pusher should) to fulfill the security requirements of being Captain.

Why the hop and not the hos? Well other than the previous stated reason, the Hoss should be the last in line for ascension to cap. The Hoss has a long term goal of maintaining security/brig, which goes is on tier of importance to what the captain does himself if not more so. Matters of security should remain his responsibility for his entire tenure upon the station. There is slight overlap once an emergency is declared obviously with that of the captain, which is another reason why he should not assume Captainship; Too much power in one position.

The CE/CMO/RD likewise, each have important departments, but are all equally qualified to assume captainship in case of emergency and requiring some immediate actions, varying upon circumstances. This should not happen however as the hop should have been available to assume it properly while creating his replacement but things are not ideal. Heads who fight over the rank are demonstrating how unfit they are for said rank. A Captain will either assume command somehow without an argument or be hostile/powerful enough to simple take it without others bitching. The infighting has to be beneath him.

Rank tl;dr
Captain >- HoP >- CE/RD/CMO >- HoS

[cedarbridge]

Always tried to follow the hierarchy a certain way myself, with some logic figured out over time. The hop isn't a Second in the sense that he is the literal Right Hand of the Captain, but that in the absence of the Captain, he is the one expected first to step up and fill said position. Now, there is a reason for this, and they are a couple good ones.

He, out of all the other Heads, has the access immediately at his fingertips to resolve the situation. It is expected/demanded that he vet and promote someone to his present position(nobody ever said it can't be a sec officer either but nobody ever seems to think of this) while uplifting himself to the captains position legitimately (this would mean closing the damn captain slot on the ID manifest so a new one doesn't appear like a good paper pusher should) to fulfill the security requirements of being Captain.

Why the hop and not the hos? Well other than the previous stated reason, the Hoss should be the last in line for ascension to cap. The Hoss has a long term goal of maintaining security/brig, which goes is on tier of importance to what the captain does himself if not more so. Matters of security should remain his responsibility for his entire tenure upon the station. There is slight overlap once an emergency is declared obviously with that of the captain, which is another reason why he should not assume Captainship; Too much power in one position.

The CE/CMO/RD likewise, each have important departments, but are all equally qualified to assume captainship in case of emergency and requiring some immediate actions, varying upon circumstances. This should not happen however as the hop should have been available to assume it properly while creating his replacement but things are not ideal. Heads who fight over the rank are demonstrating how unfit they are for said rank. A Captain will either assume command somehow without an argument or be hostile/powerful enough to simple take it without others bitching. The infighting has to be beneath him.

Rank tl;dr
Captain >- HoP >- CE/RD/CMO >- HoS

We had a captain Janiborg once. That was pretty ok.

[cedarbridge]

It is known that HoP was equal to other heads.

But you seem to forgot that this whole thread was caused by the host, who I think have authority to change things like that.

Actually its a vague quote of SoS probably simplifying things. Not putting words in SoS's mouth, but I'm pretty sure he's on the same page with this thread re: HoP being equal.

[TZK13]

Actually its a vague quote of SoS probably simplifying things. Not putting words in SoS's mouth, but I'm pretty sure he's on the same page with this thread re: HoP being equal.

I didn't clarify it in the original post but SoS was playing as the HoP that I had told IC didn't have the authority to release a prisoner just because the Captain didn't object when we had a fully able HoS so no, SoS seemed to believe otherwise when he made no response to me IC and proceeded to call security retards in a Centcom announcement for thinking that way.

[Steelpoint]

Actually its a vague quote of SoS probably simplifying things. Not putting words in SoS's mouth, but I'm pretty sure he's on the same page with this thread re: HoP being equal.

I didn't clarify it in the original post but SoS was playing as the HoP that I had told IC didn't have the authority to release a prisoner just because the Captain didn't object when we had a fully able HoS so no, SoS seemed to believe otherwise when he made no response to me IC and proceeded to call security retards in a Centcom announcement for thinking that way.

Maybe he was just frustrated at the time, its clear he had a stake in that situation that gave a hard bias towards one side.

[Ikarrus]

AFAIK nothing has changed and the wiki is correct.

Things can change due to player interaction IC but the wiki holds the correct "canon" in this case.

If SoS wanted to change that we'd get a formal announcement about it. His centcom announcement is either mistaken, or just an ICly temporary change in command structure for that round.

[CocaneStyle]

I liked the idea of the HoP having authority over all heads except security, with the HoS reporting only to the captain.

[cedarbridge]

I liked the idea of the HoP having authority over all heads except security, with the HoS reporting only to the captain.

For what purpose? Also, >special treatment for the HoS

[Incomptinence]

Equal to over heads yet most convenient to appoint on short notice. If somethings is say killing captains convenience can become very important.

Also pretty sure heads job slots were considered "too important to close" when implementing the sadly toothless roster system.

[callanrockslol]

I liked the idea of the HoP having authority over all heads except security, with the HoS reporting only to the captain.

For what purpose? Also, >special treatment for the HoS

Its CocaneStyle, he's the old new me of the ideas subforum.

[Timbrewolf]

It's simple. He's of equal rank to all the other head's of staff but first in line to be promoted to acting Captain in an emergency where the station is left without a Captain, or the odd round where there just isn't one yet.

In the event of the former, he should get a replacement HoP so someone is still there to fulfill his duties while he takes on the role of the Captain.
In the event of the latter, he should pull double duty as long as he can and hand authority back over to the Captain when they finally arrive.

I think the concept that the HoP holds authority over other heads is an old holdover from Goon and something people randomly keep adding into the wiki incorrectly as it gets revised or changes hosting.
I think on some other servers the chain of command works that way but as I understood it here for the last few years the HoP is intended to be on even footing as the other heads on /tg/station.
I say this as someone who played as HoP when I played on Goon ages and ages ago, and noticed the change when I first came here and played the role.

[QuartzCrystal]

I have enjoyed times when a captain has died and the other heads agree they don't like the HoP/trust him enough to be captain and then strip him of his powers and promote one of themselves or just try to operate the station without a proper head of command. That said, when I've seen this the other heads had perfectly valid reason to do it and it shouldn't be encouraged at all.

[Timbrewolf]

I've always been a little torn on the issue of why the HoP gets promoted before the HoS.

Considering one is a paper pusher administrator and the other is the hero the station needs it always seemed kind of odd that the HoP suddenly can become the HoS' BoSS'.

...but then I remember that the HoS is the most overworked sunnavabitch on the whole station and suddenly dropping the leadership of the entire station on him as well probably isn't the best idea. So the HoP really is probably the best guy for the job in almost every situation.