On the host position

[oranges]

Can we talk about if we need a host position anymore?

If people are donating to pay the server bills, we really actually only need people who are technically competent to maintain the server infrastructure.

The host position IMO only made sense when SoS was still actually paying the bills, when you're only contributing technical knowledge and time I don't think you should have a policy say greater than say admins who also contribute their time and knowledge.

This would leave the headmins as elected by the three branches as the deciders of things.

[Stickymayhem]

I think it's way more effective and stable to have a single person dealing with technical and financial stuff.

Headmins change every 6 months, it's awkward to have to change over control of everything every time, and determining which headmin has the actual keys to the server and all that. Nah.

This is literally just the most convenient option. It makes everything easier for everyone.

[oranges]

I'm not saying change the financial or technical setup.

I'm saying that the person responsible for those things shouldn't have final say. Let their words hold as much weight as an admin but the headmins have final say.

I'm perfectly willing to assume the risk of being the cardholder on the hosting account if it needs to come to that and not to have any say on the goings on.

Then we just need to ensure we have a decent set of competent technical people as sysadmin roles.

[Malkevin]

I can agree with the host role being shared amongst the headmins, but I can't agree with that for as long as one of the headmins is from an independent organisation.

Might as well give Pomf remote access, although thats not a completely terrible idea given his auto update/auto restart script thingy.

[callanrockslol]

but I can't agree with that for as long as one of the headmins is from an independent organisation.

Host should really be someone that just makes sure its all going well and manages the physical stuff, not someone with any policy influence at all to stop them from trying to pull rank and all that shit, especially if one of the headmins is from an independent group.



Come to think of it, why do coderbus even get a headmin vote anymore, HG declared total independence and then spent his time fucking around with server policy. If you are going to build a wall and tell the other guys to fuck off you can't expect to be allowed to come over and tell people on the other side what to do.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

coderbus get a headmin vote because SoS loaned his vote out to them, and the current batch of hosts can't be arsed to pick one themselves.

[Stickymayhem]

For this cycle at least it seemed pretty shifty to fuck over an established agreement over the election.

[Malkevin]

Established once.
Originally it was just host picks
Then we had one cycle of two player elected headmins, that didn't work
Then we had one cycle of admin, player, coder elects.


The coder choice is probably going to be HG again, what did HG do last time aside from officially declare "it's our code base not yours"?
Sweet fuck all

Having an empty seat in a head min position defeats the entire point of having a triumvirate, better to have two player elected headmins and an admin elected headmin

[Alex Crimson]

HG probably did more than we know. Not all the stuff the administration does is advertised, which some people have an issue with. I know HG, Anon and SoS were the ones who pushed the ERP ban.

But yeah, if HG intends to declare independence like that then there is absolutely no reason for coders to have a headmin position anymore. If they are already /tg/ admins then by all means let them run in the admin/player headmin elections.

[ThanatosRa]

How long until people decry MSO as a tyrant? Or the next unlucky fuck who tries out the mantle?



What the fuck guys, A small minority of the population is going to kill us.

[Alex Crimson]

How long until people decry MSO as a tyrant? Or the next unlucky fuck who tries out the mantle?



What the fuck guys, A small minority of the population is going to kill us.

I havent seen a single genuine insult directed at MSO since his ascension to host. Not on here, in-game, or on singulo. He hasnt even messed up yet as far as i know. The only people saying bad things right now would be the people who are NEVER going to be happy no matter what happens. Just ignore them.

[Stickymayhem]

Established once.
Originally it was just host picks
Then we had one cycle of two player elected headmins, that didn't work
Then we had one cycle of admin, player, coder elects.


The coder choice is probably going to be HG again, what did HG do last time aside from officially declare "it's our code base not yours"?
Sweet fuck all

Having an empty seat in a head min position defeats the entire point of having a triumvirate, better to have two player elected headmins and an admin elected headmin

It was agreed before this election. We aren't going to pull the rug out from under coderbus a day before their vote

[Malkevin]

Because they're taking it oh-so-seriously?

Then maybe the elections should be postponed for a couple of weeks so that our new host can decide whether to honour that old agreement or not, instead of having to stare at the huge rift causing elephant in the room for another six months?

[Jeb]

Because they're taking it oh-so-seriously?

Then maybe the elections should be postponed for a couple of weeks so that our new host can decide whether to honour that old agreement or not, instead of having to stare at the huge rift causing elephant in the room for another six months?

This man does have a point. The human they're trying to elect rarely takes on administrative duties on the server, rarely plays on the server(from my own observation, grain of salt etc), and literally less than a month ago ragequit from his position in which he's about to be reelected to.

[Incoming]

Lack of willing candidates might be a part of it. There's exhaustive factors with dealing with the coder side of things, so to even WANT to deal with the admin side at the same time? Honestly I'd call someone who WANTED that a little crazy.

[Ikarrus]

I don't think the coders are restricted to voting only other coders. They could easily vote for any of the candidates here: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=38

[oranges]

Stop derailing my thread nerds, make your own thread.

[Incoming]

Well yeah but [CONJECTURE HERE I DON'T KNOW THIS] I think since it's their "representative" they'd want someone from the inside who they knew they were in cahoots with [/CONJECTURE].

[Stickymayhem]

Because they're taking it oh-so-seriously?

Then maybe the elections should be postponed for a couple of weeks so that our new host can decide whether to honour that old agreement or not, instead of having to stare at the huge rift causing elephant in the room for another six months?

This man does have a point. The human they're trying to elect rarely takes on administrative duties on the server, rarely plays on the server(from my own observation, grain of salt etc), and literally less than a month ago ragequit from his position in which he's about to be reelected to.

10/10

[Malkevin]

Lack of willing candidates might be a part of it. There's exhaustive factors with dealing with the coder side of things, so to even WANT to deal with the admin side at the same time? Honestly I'd call someone who WANTED that a little crazy.

Why does it have to be a coder maintainer, why should it be one of them?

The player choice wasn't restricted to only players, in fact anone made it so that it was difficult for a player to even run.
Callan is the only pure player that has been allowed to run, the other three are an ex admin and two people that ran a codebase

[Steelpoint]

I do think we should revisit giving coderbus a headadmin slot. I was always wary of giving coderbus a headmin position when coderbus has made it very clear that they do not consider themselves to be apart, or attached, to this community.

[ThanatosRa]

How long until people decry MSO as a tyrant? Or the next unlucky fuck who tries out the mantle?



What the fuck guys, A small minority of the population is going to kill us.

I havent seen a single genuine insult directed at MSO since his ascension to host. Not on here, in-game, or on singulo. He hasnt even messed up yet as far as i know. The only people saying bad things right now would be the people who are NEVER going to be happy no matter what happens. Just ignore them.

Only because they haven't come yet.

[Alex Crimson]

Then there is no reason for doomsaying. MSO has handled the forum for a while now and has done a fine job of it, as far as i know. Hell, people were fine with Anon until he started getting involved in policy and disallowing certain things.

If in the end MSO cannot deal with the badmouthing, then the torch will just be passed to someone else. Worst case /tg/ shuts down and we all just find other servers to play on. SS13 will go on just fine no matter what happens here.

[ThanatosRa]

Then there is no reason for doomsaying. MSO has handled the forum for a while now and has done a fine job of it, as far as i know. Hell, people were fine with Anon until he started getting involved in policy and disallowing certain things.

If in the end MSO cannot deal with the badmouthing, then the torch will just be passed to someone else. Worst case /tg/ shuts down and we all just find other servers to play on. SS13 will go on just fine no matter what happens here.

THERE IS TOTALLY REASON FOR DOOMSAYING. THERE IS ALWAYS DOOMSAYING.


And shitposting.

[Timbrewolf]

For the record the first thing Malk did when I became host was message me offering to create a group of his own coder friends or something if I would tell all of coderbus to fuck off and host whatever project he and his crew came up with instead, promising that he would be so much more loyal to me/the community/the illuminati/whatever.

Anything he is suggesting or condemning likely stems from the fact that he has a strong personal bias against coderbus and would rather be running that show himself.

Just a friendly heads up since this discussion was shown to me. There's an anonymous post he made somewhere on Singulo as well where he called me a pussy or something for not going along with it. It would be wise not to listen to him when it comes to how to best handle this situation since he is dedicated to ruining that relationship with coderbus and furthering his own project.

[Malkevin]

I've been anything but secretive in my views, just look in the thread "Lack of Player input on changes" they're there for all to see and clear as crystal.
The only reason I approached you in secret is because I knew it was possible you'd say no, and it would probably kick off a massive shit storm. I wish I'd done it publicly now due how much of a sopping wet orifice you're being.

You make it sound like anyone that is currently/has worked with coderbus would be verboten, that they'd be exiled to some far off land.
Hell, I'd even allow Paprika to code again providing they don't act like a complete cunt and are willing to follow the same standards as everyone else and follow the "idea>design>feedback>code>feedback>merge>feedback>changes>feedback*repeat" system as everyone else.

I dont want that rift, I don't want a codebase that makes changes that everyone hates then turns around and says "Its not your codebase its ours".
But thats not the situation we're in, is it? I didn't create the rift, they did.


If the current coderbus is unwilling to listen to us, unwilling to change their ways, and maintain an independent stance then the only logical conclusion is that we fork the code and run off our own branch, start a clean slate.
We wouldn't lose any code from this, there's nothing stopping people working on both branches - those that want to code for just this server and its playerbase can do so, those that want to code for an independent codebase that they're in full control of and code for mythical downstreams can do so - everyone is happy.
But apparently you think trying to change a bad situation is terrible thing?

[Timbrewolf]

I guess that's the thing.

Maybe Coderbus doesn't listen to you?

They listened to me. I got some things changed here and then when I asked because I asked nicely and was able to talk out why I was asking for something reasonably and was also able to accept that sometimes I might ask for something to get changed and they would say "no" and that would be acceptable too.

Is that so unreasonable? Is it asking too much?

If you're at the point where you've burned that bridge so bad that your only recourse is to create a whole new coderbus that will listen to you...I'm thinking maybe the problem might actually be with you and not them?

Maybe Coderbus doesn't listen to you? Or anyone who thinks that coderbus owes them the game exactly the way you want it, and if they don't want to give you that that they should be replaced?

The only reason I approached you in secret is because I knew it was possible you'd say no, and it would probably kick off a massive shit storm

If you were worried about that why'd you go on singulo immediately afterward to shitpost that I'd turned down your offer? Judging by your actions then and how you're acting now it seems more likely you were worried about people knowing the lengths you'd go to get rid of coderbus.

I mean, one of the first things that anybody had to say when I became host was a scare that I would stonewall coderbus and revert the code back to pre-Goof. Practically the first official words out of my mouth as host were "I'm not gonna do that." So the idea that it would cause a massive shitstorm and you were protecting me? Nah, that's not possible. That it was a massive shitstorm and would protect the community? Nah, I just wrangled that same shitstorm immediately.

That it would be a massive shitstorm...for you?

I've had enough of this conversation as I'm sure you have too. I'll give you the last word on it but I've made my point. Your plan to "improve" the situation is to bulldoze it and draft people into some kind of workforce. Any "helpful insight" or criticisms you provide on the situation are going to be aimed at breaking up what we already have, undermining it however you can, to better position yourself to implement your own idea. Anything you to have to say on the issue is poison. You're setting yourself up to be the next Creed.

[Stickymayhem]

Well done you made the most abnormally pleasant person on the servers blow a gasket everyone

[peoplearestrange]

On second thoughts, this thread is full of garbage, the hosting has changed hands again, this is no longer relevent and is simply becoming back and forth.
Locked.

EDIT: Stickys post above is referring to my deleted post fyi.

EDIT2: OK So i've been asked to reopen this by a few people. I'm gonna cut the crap out, but seriously, lets have a proper rational discussion on this since its obviously important.
Any personal attacks by ANYONE will be deleted.

EDIT3: (seriously) Ok So i've been requested to close this by a headmin. The thead has served its purpose, and if Im honest 90% of it was personal attacks between a few users back and forth and not actually a discussion of the original topic.
If a discussion of hosting needs to be had please make a new thread.