Forum Moderator Elections

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:01 am #95829

A consistent problem we've had since moving to this board but nothing has been done to address:

Forum Moderation is handed out in a 50/50 split between utility (I had it when I was headmin, other admins that need it for certain reasons have it as well) and favoritism (I don't want to name names, but some of the people are empowered to censor posts and ban users simply because they're on good terms with MSO). This leads to some forum moderators being very utilitarian and only doing what needs to be done

...and some being a bit "overzealous" at times and simply moderating things based on their own personal attitudes.

If election is good enough for the administrators of the game itself, why not the administrators of the forums?
The forums are the vehicle by which a lot of decisions are made regarding the game, as well as bans/unbanning so it should be seen as an equally serious responsibility.

Spoiler:

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:41 am #95837

Post by **Jordie0608** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:03 am #95843

Forum administrators are selected by MSO as he's the only one with the power to do so since he is the Founder.
Forum moderators were appointed mostly off whoever was a moderator on the previous forums and wanted to be one again; maintainers at the time who were asked to be moderators for their code boards; and assorted people who asked for it.

As far as I recall in the year since the forum's inception, following the batch done then, there's been ~2 people who've come and asked us to be made moderators, both were.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:23 am #95847

can i be a mod

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:33 am #95849

Handing out forum mod liberally when it started was a bad idea imo.

Just demod everyone and only get a small handful of good ones that don't get offended so easily.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:37 am #95850

I apologize for my shitpost.

Anyways, I think this is a good idea, primarily because we have, like it or not, been seeing a lot of "You hurt my feeling/You might hurt someones feelings" deletions. The mods in question are aware of who they are, and while they are not problematic people I think that elected moderators would perhaps better reflect how the community feels things should be maintained. People DO want boards to move smoothly - People do not want their posts deleted because they happened to irk a particularly sensitive moderator or two.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:21 am #95863

Ikarrus wrote:Handing out forum mod liberally when it started was a bad idea imo.

Just demod everyone and only get a small handful of good ones that don't get offended so easily.

I think being difficult to offend, next to a modicum of common sense, should really be the only requirements for the job.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:37 am #95873

On the forum I used to administrate what we (read: I) essentially did was look at outstanding community members and ask them if they wanted to be a forum mod, then I kept a tight set of rules around.

Essentially the forum moderators are meant to be the 'best of us'. Meaning if they acted like shit, or broke any rules, then they were tossed out in very short order (usually with a few private warnings to get them to fall back in line). Left us with a solid core moderator team, I can only recall one person being demoted and that was of their own violation.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:41 am #95877

Own violation, or own volition?

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:54 am #95881

He means volition I'm sure.

Having previously been a forum admin on these forums and a forum admin on our previous forums, it's really not hard to tell what you should be locking or deleting and what (despite you not liking it) you should leave the hell alone.

/tg/station development and For No Reason! need some fairly heavy-handed moderation. They're the important stuff. Adults need to talk to other adults and conduct themselves like adults in there.
The "Space Station 13" forum? Unless someone is posting nudes, suicides, or other blatantly ridiculous material you can usually leave the fuck alone.

Ideally you should just draft some people from the admin team to watch FNR exclusively, some coders to watch development exclusively, and a small team of volunteers to make sure nobody is spamming SS13 with scat or tonto posts.

Instead it's just a weird hodgepodge of people with authority over everything, and sometimes exercising it without sizing up the situation first or sometimes without even understanding the rules of the subforum they're moderating.

captain sawrge · Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:06 pm

daily reminder the jojo rp thread i spent several hours on got deleted because some fucking Expert Comedian Forum Moderator didn't like it and i'm pretty sure i'm banned from every IRC for asking to have it brought back

QuartzCrystal · Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:34 am

Maybe like, this might be taking the whole electionbus too far?

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:12 am #96436

QuartzCrystal wrote:Maybe like, this might be taking the whole electionbus too far?

The quality of discussion on these forums indicates that there's room for improvement in how we handle things. Maybe adding democracy to the process isn't the best option, but at least it's an idea.

As things stand, I feel that if I have something constructive to say about the game, it stands a better chance of being seen by more people if I say it on singulo.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:48 am #96496

I think moderators should be assigned to each section of the forums depending on their function within the community. Admins moderate the admin section, Coders moderate the development section, and anybody moderates the General/Community/Space Station 13 section. This is currently the case, I believe, so all you have to do is keep the moderator list updated (demod people who are being shit and get new mods).

We don't need elections and they would not be a better method to get moderators than the one we currently use.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:41 am #96508

It doesn't surprise me at all that some people are being zealous because there's really nothing saying to tone it down nor anybody to actually force that to happen. So I don't think elections are the answer. I think somebody saying "Hey don't do x because of y reasons" is the answer.

mosquitoman · Post by **mosquitoman** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:47 am #96512

Moderators should have one job and one job only: removing outright spam and content violating the law of the country the forum server is in. "Locking" threads or deleting posts they don't like are things of the past.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:49 am #96517

mosquitoman wrote:Moderators should have one job and one job only: removing outright spam and content violating the law of the country the forum server is in. "Locking" threads or deleting posts they don't like are things of the past.

I disagree. The forums are most importantly a tool for administrators and coders to collect useful feedback on how well the current policy and code are doing and what changes could be most useful. This purpose is more efficiently accomplished when community members aren't filling every thread with primate dominance behavior. Forum moderators should make it as easy as possible for those in charge to find useful feedback and ideas.

If you accept that the forums have this purpose, then there are two ways for the forum moderation to fail: Firstly by burying useful dissenting opinions, and secondly by allowing the quality of discussion to devolve to the point that admins and coders can't collect useful feedback without being distracted by inflammatory bait. I'd say that these forums are suffering pretty badly from both issues.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:23 pm #96530

One thing that really needs to be done is to stop locking threads if an off topic argument is happening. Right now it is way to easy to close a thread you don't like by just shitting it up until the forum mods lock it.

I think a good alternative is to warn both parties and then delete all their posts in the thread if they do not shut up

QuartzCrystal · Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:36 pm

Wyzack wrote:One thing that really needs to be done is to stop locking threads if an off topic argument is happening. Right now it is way to easy to close a thread you don't like by just shitting it up until the forum mods lock it.

I think a good alternative is to warn both parties and then delete all their posts in the thread if they do not shut up

But if we don't lock threads that have gone on too long and are way off topic then they'll continue to grow. Moderators are here to stop us from ourselves.

mosquitoman · Post by **mosquitoman** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:42 pm #96647

why nip discussions in the bud? if it grows naturally in a different direction why artificially stop it? you can just stop reading the thread if you're no longer interested

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:14 pm #96658

I don't mean cases where a thread has served it's purpose or whatever, but when people are trying to have an on topic discussion and two or more people are arguing about something dumb or irrelevant it seems lame to lock the thing rather than stopping the shitters.

QuartzCrystal · Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:10 pm

Wyzack wrote:I don't mean cases where a thread has served it's purpose or whatever, but when people are trying to have an on topic discussion and two or more people are arguing about something dumb or irrelevant it seems lame to lock the thing rather than stopping the shitters.

And why is it necessary to have a forum moderator election to accomplish this?

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:46 pm #96762

It is not, it is more a niggling concern I have about forum moderation, apologies for off topic post

Post by **Jordie0608** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:18 am #96993

It honestly seems like the discussion is less "There is a problem with how moderators are chosen" and more "I dislike what x moderator does/doesn't do". Elections would only affect the former; if you have problems with the latter then make a post report (you can report locked stuff to i.e. ask why it was locked) or send the administrators a PM and then we can look into it.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:44 am #97033

captain sawrge wrote:daily reminder the jojo rp thread i spent several hours on got deleted because some fucking Expert Comedian Forum Moderator didn't like it and i'm pretty sure i'm banned from every IRC for asking to have it brought back

Did that actually get deleted? I remember yelling at someone for locking it the first time and I restored it.

Is it actually gone for good now? That sucks. That fucking bear stand was hilarious.

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:05 pm #97091

Wasn't the entire reason for past admin/headmin/staff meltdowns caused by them taking the forum/ss13/position too seriously? Isn't this just taking it to the next level?
I was fairly sure space station 13 was a video game and not an actual political party that had to hold elections for every position that has some type of authority.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:34 pm #97116

Oh wow, I am no longer forum banned, that didn't last long. Anyway, as yesterday's situation goes to show, moderation has far too much stock in personal sensibility, and far too little in neutral and mutual respect of what should be a given right to free speech, and the dissemination of ideas and opinions.

In pointing out that any moderation of so called 'political discussion' would be unwittingly abused according to a moderator's political beliefs, I was heavily and retroactively moderated out of a thread that has now been deleted entirely, and seemingly forum banned for it.

TheNightingale · Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:51 pm

nsos · Post by **nsos** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:57 pm #97126

i nominate myself, terbs, & sawrge for forum headmods

Amnestik · Post by **Amnestik** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:48 pm #97137

TheNightingale wrote:

"being an asshole" is subjective. We need clear rules.

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:01 pm #97139

Tunder wrote:Oh wow, I am no longer forum banned, that didn't last long. Anyway, as yesterday's situation goes to show, moderation has far too much stock in personal sensibility, and far too little in neutral and mutual respect of what should be a given right to free speech, and the dissemination of ideas and opinions.

In pointing out that any moderation of so called 'political discussion' would be unwittingly abused according to a moderator's political beliefs, I was heavily and retroactively moderated out of a thread that has now been deleted entirely, and seemingly forum banned for it.

this is literally you Tunder.

Please stop this, nobody is censoring you, we just don't care about your opinion and thus we shouldn't be subjected to absolute fucking depravity of human thought.

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:58 am #97809

To Much communism.
To much socialism.

Here is the political way to do it (Good ol' fasion democracy.)

ADMIN RESHUFFLEING [S.1A]
Elections [S.1B]
Everyone is removed from the admin.txt
Everyone.
Head-Min elections are ran.
All the veteran/retired admins, are put back to player status, not retaining any adminstrative value, this is democracy, you aren't a special snowflake because you banned some people.
30 players are elected every month to be on a council. (Shit players are automatically selected to be disallowed from being on the council, they may make a council ban appeal, which is answered by other players to determine if they are shit or not.)
10 adminstrators are elected.
20 game moderators are elected
25 fourm moderators are elected

Every 3 months, the txt is cleared.

People who run for a position, may not run 2 consecutive terms.

The host is cycled every 9 months.

ADMIN COMPLAINTS [S.2A]
Once a complaint is made, the affiliated admin is deadmin'd untill the complaint is resolved.
The adminstration team must remain completely unbiasd when dealing with the complaint, attempting to gather as much information as possible from the complainer.
The adminstration team will then make a decision, boiling it down to a 2 option decission. (Generally accepting or denying the appeal, other actions may be taken)
Once the decission is made, it will be sent to the player council. 2/3rds of the council must approve the complaint decission for it to pass.
If the complaint is deemed reasonable, and is a logical complaint, in favor of the complainer. The affiliated admin is deadminned, and may not serve the rest of their term, or the following term after that.
If the complaint is deemed unreasonable, the affected admin is promoted back to their original rank, and verbally compensated. the complainer is sent a message explaining why this is a case, and given several solutions on what could be done to improve the situation.

BAN APPEALS [S.3A]
The banned player creates a appeal.
The adminstrative team determines if it is a valid appeal, gathering as much information in the fourm post as possible (Yes or No determination)
The descsion from the admin team is sent to the council, a 2/3rds vote from the council is needed to confirm the decission.
If the decission is reached, in favor of the banned player, the player is unbanned, and compensated with a cool, non protective hat for one round. And the admin who banned him recieves a period of deadmin ship equal to the time that the player served in a banned status.
If the decission is reached that the player was wrong, by both the council and adminstration team, the players ban time is doubled, if it is a perma ban, the player may only re-appeal 6 months from the last appeal
THE COUNCIL [S.4A]
In the case that a 2/3rds vote is not reached due to the council members not voting, the ones who did not vote will be removed from the council, and may not serve on the same term. Their slots are then filled by a immidate election for council members.
If the ejected council member spots are not filled withen 3-7 busniess days, the head adminstrator will be contacted to make a decission.
If the head adminstrator is unavalible, the appeal is automatically accepted in favor of the appealee.
Council members do not answer ahelps, and do not have admin powers, they only have a in-game rank title, and access to the asay verb, to be able to communicate in game with the adminstration team.
Corruption/Bribery [S.4B]
If a council member is suspected of corruption/bribery by a player/other council member/admin, they are stripped of the ability to vote, and they're ingame powers and rank.
The adminstrative team will investigate the afilliated council members/players
If it is deemd that the Council member recieved a offer to be bribed, but denied it, the player/admin/council member who sent the bribe will be banned in game for 2 weeks, and barred from politcal positions.
If it is deemd that the Council member recieved a bribe, and accepted it, both will be banned for 1 month, and barred from politcal decissions.
Corruption follows the same proceedures as the admin team, see: Section 5B
Blackmailing [2.4C]
Council members suspected of recieving blackmail, will temporaily be stripped of rank to preserve the tranquility of the political body that is /tg/station.
The adminstrative team will then investigate if the council member has been black mailed.
If the council member has been blackmailed, the player/admin/council member that blackmailed him will be banned from the server for 2 weeks, and barred from joinning politcal positions.
If the council member has not been blackmailed, the council member will regain his rank after what he has been blackmailed with is deemed to no longer be able to be used to blackmail him.

THE ADMINSTRATION TEAM [S.5A]
Corruption [S.5B]
Any sign of corruption determined by the council or players, will be investigated by the council.
If deemed corrupt, affiliated admins will be deadmin'd, and they're spots will remain empty until the end of the term. The affiliated admins may not serve the term after their deadminship.
The adminstration team must remain absolutely professional at all times, breaking this is terms for a period of power removal, varrying in time for the action preformed.
Button pushing / spamming events, (Determined by the council/players) is cause for power removal for a extended period of time (6 months+)
Abuse, is cause for permanent admin removal (Determined by other admins/council/players) This is run through a vote in the council, 2/3rds of the council must deem it abuse. If the verdict is deemed true, affected admin is stripped of his power, and barred from ever serving a term as a admin/council member.

Blackmailing
Follows the same proceedure as the council, see Section 2.4 C

Ran out of energy to keep bothering to make a entire constituion for the server. But you get the general idea, if for some reason this is a god send, i'l make another full sized constituion of a different thread/post.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:10 am #97810

Post by **Vekter** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:24 am #97812

To this day, I still can't tell if Oxford is trolling or not.

Post by **Jordie0608** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:31 am #97814

This has nothing to do with forum moderators anymore. PM me if you have anything left to say about the actual topic, but otherwise its course is run.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:36 am #97815

No no no no no, I want to see this taken to it conclusion.

John_Oxford, Please, Continue.

Post by **Vekter** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:38 am #97818

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:51 am #97822

Fuck my fingers, Its ok, close this thread, i'l make another thread for the entirty of it.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:03 am #97826

This suggestion is pure comedy gold.

Imagine how long it would take to setup and run all those nominations and elections.
At least a month.
Then you have the settling-in period where people meet their new coworkers and people figure out what the fuck they're supposed to be doing together.
Probably another month.
Then you start working together and formulating getting shit done. You propose some changes and ideas and set up polls and run some opinion census stuff to figure out whether any of this is actually wanted by anybody or could possible work.
That last month.

Then right as everything is ready to work everyone gets fired again and you have to start a new series of elections.

I have to admit it's kind-of brilliant. You managed to take one of the worst political systems known to man and make it even worse and less effective.

Ikky, HG, and myself managed to hold shit together for just about five months out of our six month reign. That's a goddamn record. Most administrations crumble within the first month or two. You want to tack on all this changing of the guard and lame-duck candidacy. Amazing. Fucking amazing.

Let's ride this rollercoaster straight to hell.

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:48 am #97837

THATS what i missed.
Shit takes to long, one minute let me change some shit.

Also, here is the full post MSO.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3926&p=97836#p97836

An0n3 wrote:

I have to admit it's kind-of brilliant. You managed to take one of the worst political systems known to man and make it even worse and less effective.

EDIT:
You fucking dare say democracy is flawed?

Need i launch a fucking freedom rocket, painted red white and blue, with thomas jefferson, george washington, and abraham linhcon all riding on it at your house?

Or do you submit to freedom, in all its glory.

I ONLY KNOW FREEEDOMM

Spoiler:

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:22 am #97857

How dare you associate this pile of shit with the most glorious nation on earth.

This is absolutely British in its ridiculousness. This is the kind of "freedom" the UK has to sign and stamp in triplicate while their country turns into a total shit-hole.

Turn in your bald eagles and get the fuck out of the US of A if you think this is what freedom looks like boy.