Transfer Valves and Meta

onleavedontatme · Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:13 am

So 6 maxcap bombs are more or less uncounterable. Once the scientist makes the bombs the round is more or less over, and before he makes the bombs, it's meta to do anything about it.

Should we allow for wiggle room here?

The situation in question was a player seeing the bomb room set up for making maxcaps and immediately destroying all the transfer valves. Doing this probably broke rules, but not doing it would have resulted in yet another vaporized station.

So anyway, thoughts on this? It's probably an issue that's only fixable code side, but as long as we're stuck with how it is, how dumb should we force players to play?

Tsaricide · Post by **Tsaricide** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:24 am #110149

Antags fault for not getting the valves before he starts setting up the gas.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:29 am #110151

Sounds like an IC issue, if he wanted em, he should have secured em, I don't think it's meta to try to secure the things, nor unreasonable to try to defend them.

Don't consider it meta to be naturally distrustful of bombs and their makers, problem solved
it's something to fight over, but I dunno about using scary language like "meta" or "fixable code-side"

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:33 am #110152

bombs are so mongoloid easy and round-ruining that I don't fault anyone for not wanting bombs to have an effect on the round

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:40 am #110154

I don't see why it's a big deal unless it happens every single round.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:00 am #110166

Bombs decide many a round these days, I don't fault anyone for destroying or spacing the TTVs. I'm honestly of the opinion they should start in the RD's locker anyway. If a traitor wants them so bad they should work for them. But that's not so much the point of the thread, just a thought.

Anyway, yes, I think it's acceptable meta and some room should be made.

Stickymayhem · Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:09 am

I think this is fine. If security, the captain or the RD want to stop a mass bombing they can. The trouble is if random chucklefucks break into toxins just as an excuse to fuck something up for the sake of "Saving the station".

If you have some kind of legitimate authority over it go for it. If you don't expect to get mass drivered out to the test site or banned.

Fr05tByt3 · Post by **Fr05tByt3** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:30 am #110191

rdght91 wrote:I don't see why it's a big deal unless it happens every single round.

Oldman did it just about every other antag round of his until half the community created a shitstorm in his face about it.

Fr05tByt3 · Post by **Fr05tByt3** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:32 am #110193

Stickymayhem wrote:I think this is fine. If security, the captain or the RD want to stop a mass bombing they can. The trouble is if random chucklefucks break into toxins just as an excuse to fuck something up for the sake of "Saving the station".

If you have some kind of legitimate authority over it go for it. If you don't expect to get mass drivered out to the test site or banned.

What about another scientist? Or a borg, trying to prevent harm and whatnot?
Random pleb: BORG LAW 2 MAKE SURE OLDMAN GETS NO BOMBS
Borg: *beep

This acceptable or nah?

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:39 am #110197

Seems like there's a pretty clear parallel here with AI-proofing atmos. Current ruling is that it's against the rules to modify atmosia to make it impossible for the AI to plasma flood unless you happen to be doing something else with it that warrants that sort of modification, or the AI is acting suspicious. An analogous rule here would be that you can't hoard the transfer valves unless you're making bombs for yourself, or the person making the bombs is acting extremely sketchy.

It's not perfect analogy, though. Flooding plasma is like 80% of the AI's ability to fuck the station, but scientists have other powerful options besides bombs available to them. Trying to survive bombs also tends to end up being way less interesting than trying to survive a plasma flood.

I think the only option to make everyone happy would be a code solution. Barring that, and given the current state of traitor, I think it would be better to give bomb-makers some policy protection against meta rather than make traitor rounds even less eventful than they are now.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:04 am #110202

>give bomb-makers some protection against meta

Okay so let me fucking make something clear real quick before I go to sleep. Meta implies OOC motive in place of an IC one. In the case of bombs there is 100% IC reasoning to not allow some asshole to make six maxcaps for absolutely no reason because he wants to, he sure as fuck isn't "delivering them to mining". Those are a massive security hazard that nobody can really stop outside of just taking away the valves. There is no protection against meta to be had here, people are just fucking sick of toxins.

There is also no "trying to survive bombs", its a game of absolutes in that regard. You either get gibbed by a 5/10/20/killed in the breach, or you don't and fly all the way home happy.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:14 am #110203

Yes, yes, and there's 100% IC motive to search everyone for cult papers and spraycans, periodically card the AI, and loyalty implant every crewmember because everyone will otherwise be horribly killed by plasma flooding, brainwashing, or Nar Sie. The reason you're okay with roundstart spacing the valves but not roundstart preventing any of the other possible vectors of death and chaos on the station is that you don't find bombs fun. That's fine, but at least be honest about it and don't pretend that one is less metagaming than the other.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:24 am #110205

Say I'm a security guard for Science.

Is it Kosher for me to require all scientists entering and leaving toxins to be searched?

Or is that too powergamey.

Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:28 am

Papers and spraycans aren't WMD's, and malf AI's only come to light after a silent ion storm sets them free, up until then it can be assumed they were running fine and thus there's no pressing reason to suddenly become suspicious of it. Bombs, on the other hand, are bombs. There is no way of fluffing them up, no way of obfuscating it, bombs are bombs, and they're deadly. There's a lot more IC reasoning to watch over bombs than there are for shaking down random assistants to check if they're carrying paper

That being said it is funny how much of a meme Oldman is now, earlier today he went braindead as a scientist a bit before some bombs went off, and the first thing the HoS did was come straight for him and cart him off to the brig, soul presence be damned

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:31 am #110221

If I'm the sec officer, or warden, I'll keep an eye on toxins periodically, to make sure nothing nasty is going.

If someone is actively using toxins, I will mention it over sec radio (so if the station explodes they know who to lynch).
If the person is assembling a single bomb, I'll usually not mind.
If they're assembling all 6, then I'll report that over sec, and if the fucker leaves toxins into science (instead of the test range) you're damn sure I'll question and search him - there isn't any IC reason (malf/blob/and such aside) to be doing that.

Removing the valves before anything happens, or stopping a scientist from simply doing their job though, seems pretty gamey and shit.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:57 pm #110244

lumipharon wrote:If I'm the sec officer, or warden, I'll keep an eye on toxins periodically, to make sure nothing nasty is going.

If someone is actively using toxins, I will mention it over sec radio (so if the station explodes they know who to lynch).
If the person is assembling a single bomb, I'll usually not mind.
If they're assembling all 6, then I'll report that over sec, and if the fucker leaves toxins into science (instead of the test range) you're damn sure I'll question and search him - there isn't any IC reason (malf/blob/and such aside) to be doing that.

Removing the valves before anything happens, or stopping a scientist from simply doing their job though, seems pretty gamey and shit.

>That feel when I create 6 maxcap bombs for miners and I get lynched by sec as a non-antag

Madjura · Post by **Madjura** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:23 pm #110253

Tornadium wrote:Say I'm a security guard for Science.

Is it Kosher for me to require all scientists entering and leaving toxins to be searched?

Or is that too powergamey.

Having a bomb outside of science is 5 minutes (unless it is being taken to mining which it never is) so stun the guy as he leaves science, take the bombs and give him 5. If he claims he is taking them to mining, escort him all the way there.

The main problem with bombs is that they are super easy to make and once you are outside of research with a bunch of bombs then everything is fucked forever and no one can do anything to stop it. Getting into maint from toxins is also super easy - take an ID off a braindead/suicided assistant or get an agent ID (if those still have maint, not sure) and youre good to go and blow up fucking everything, and pretty much the only reliable way I see to stop that is to watch the guy in toxins literally all the time and stop him when he leaves toxins or shut down toxins before bombs are made.
If that happened only once in a while that would be okay - but certain people do literally nothing else as antag and I am honestly amazed they don't ever get bored of it, it's always the exact same steps to make a bomb and it has basically 0 player interaction. If you want to watch shit explode play Minecraft and spawn in a bunch of TNT.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:49 pm

I'm obviously biased here but trying to step away from my role as mad-bomber I think that encouraging any level of metagaming against toxins or frequent toxins players is just awful and sends all sorts of wrong signals to the players (if you can meta them for bombs, why not meta them for singularity releases, and autolathe board, and combat mechs, etc.).

It's not that difficult for scisec, RD, and other scientists to keep tabs on any toxins players. If more than one valve gets taken off that table (and the prior one hasn't been used at Toxins Test) it's time to start asking questions and keep a close eye on him/her. If someone shoves several valves into their bags or leaves science with 1 or more bombs unaccounted for then you immediately stop/arrest them.

I've done as much when I play security and unless there's just complete chaos, I keep toxins in line... requesting updates from AI or RD, getting name(s) of who's working it, etc. It ain't that hard to lay ground rules about TTV's too so you have a strong basis for arrest/brigging/demotion if they are violated (only one valve taken as a time for testing, all valves must be accounted for before you leave science). Scientists have some of the most awkward maint. access and can't even leave science without passing by RD/Sec Checkpoint or hacking/destroying walls and doors.

But aside from just not being lazy at your job, I think the simplest and best solution to this is simply moving 3-4 TTV's into the RD's office storage. It still gives traitorsci at least 2 TTV's to ruin the brig/shut down medbay/etc. but if they want to do 6x maxcaps then they have to put themselves at greater risk by hacking into RD's office, etc. I know plenty of rounds I was simply bored with my traitor options and went for Cuban Pete, if I had to put in a lot of effort/risk just to get 6 TTV's then I might reconsider.

But I still believe that traitors should get some love before you cut away at their ability to cause mass chaos/carnage. Either way, anything is better than declaring open season on griffing certain players.

Edit: People accusing me of bombing station every other round, u 2 funny. I'm absolutely sure I've only gone and 6x maxcapped the station 3... at most 4 times in 2015. That's compared to the 200+ rounds I've probably played this year. Time2Meta Oldman's 1.5% chance of going Cuban Pete on the station!

The fact that many admins are loosely throwing around the word meta and suggesting that it's OK has already unreasonably fucked over a couple of my rounds. Last night at least the guy who hid/destroyed 6 valves at roundstart admitted he did it to metagame me, but others have been given a pass as long as they tell the admins they were "greytiding" or "just trying to make the station safe" or some other thinly veiled excuse. These are not situations where I've made the parts for 6 bombs, attached signallers to all the TTV's, or otherwise given security/science/crew a reason to believe they are at-risk... these are situations where someone removes all the TTV's from the round before they even know what roundtype it is simply because I started mixing gas in Toxins. Telling me that I have to meta the metagamers and even put myself at risk by shoving 6 valves into my bag at roundstart only to trigger a wave of inquiry/suspicion/etc. when people find out is just stupid policy and I can't believe someone is actually suggesting that with a straight face.

To add on what Sticky said, yes exercising authority and even securing some of the TTV's is ok as long as it's clearly communicated, doesn't involve taking 5-6 TTV's, and leaves a traitorsci a decent opportunity for counterplay. Having the captain run in at roundstart, grabbing all 6, declaring no bombs allowed, and then putting them in the armory is not cool. Having the RD move a few TTV's to his office and communicating their location to science is ok, along with rules for acquiring those TTV's, and even then just taking them and quietly hiding them somewhere absurd like server room is where it crosses the line from appropriate IC motivation to OOC-tier "I'm just trying to fuck over any Cuban Petes".

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:35 pm #110320

Confiscating transfer valves at the start of the round? Bad.

Confiscating transfer valves when a massive threat has become visible (large cult, entirety of medbay is rev, that sort of thing), and you're desperately trying to prevent further damage? Good.

Keeping an eye on who's making bombs in toxins? Good.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:46 pm #110324

This has been said many times and no one's come up with a good answer yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't true: Until toxins has an actual use (don't say mining, literally no one uses it for that), it will always be an Antags Only department and thus subject to meta.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:54 pm #110328

Oldman Robustin wrote: The fact that many admins are loosely throwing around the word meta and suggesting that it's OK has already unreasonably fucked over a couple of my rounds. Last night at least the guy who hid/destroyed 6 valves at roundstart admitted he did it to metagame me.

It's true and it was so funny but it was bad. You are so famous for something that people meta you.

bandit wrote:This has been said many times and no one's come up with a good answer yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't true: Until toxins has an actual use (don't say mining, literally no one uses it for that), it will always be an Antags Only department and thus subject to meta.

Sounds like a code solution :^)

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:13 pm #110334

You know what, ask Centcom if they want to buy some transfer valves.

If they're max caps, maybe I might trade some tech stuff for them.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:20 pm #110339

It would be cool if bombs were worth mad cargo points depending on yield.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:49 pm #110361

If only Cargo points in large amounts were actually valuable

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:47 pm #110384

Change the 6 TTVs to 1 TTV.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:50 pm #110387

Scott wrote:Change the 6 TTVs to 1 TTV.

Only if we up the bomb cap to 30/60/120 and make the current mix math half as potent since you can currently fart in a can with a lighter and get halfway to maxcap.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:51 pm #110389

That doesn't make any sense.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:56 pm #110404

Scott wrote:That doesn't make any sense.

So does removing toxins, so I suggested an in-between to keep your idea and still achieve the same level of destruction.

What now?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:57 pm #110405

The point of this thread is to discuss the over the top destruction that comes from six bombs being easily created.

So you want to compensate the reduction of destruction with more destruction.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:08 pm #110410

OKay IMMEDIATELY going in and grabbing the TTVs is bullshit. If there's reasonable suspicious, or it's clear that someone's making Bombs, question them, watch, etc. That's reasonable. But doing like was done with Atmos with Atmos techs IMMEDIATELY cutting off the AI from flood is just inexcusable bullshit. It's a similar category I think. Anything short of that and trying to stop it in progress is suspicious is reasonable, or the scientist is being too sketch is probably fine. Because, as noted before, If you have reasonable suspicions some lunatic is gonna go Ted Kaczynski on the station you should try to stop it. If the scientist is any good, He'll probably have a way to counter sec. "Git Gud" counts for all sides here.

But now I'm sitting here about the silly thought of a scientist informing security of "Hey, I just made some max cap bombs and I need an escort to mining. Mind sending someone?" Only to have security come in and robust him when he told them what he was doing and asked for help in good faith.

BTW, what would the admin decision on THAT eventuality be?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:09 pm #110412

Because we simultaneously have players who cry because the round wont end, and that toxins is the only way to force a shuttle call, and the players who cry because they have to call the shuttle now because of toxins.

Situation 1: We remove toxin, a department that has existed for a long ass time because i ded pls restart.
Situation 2: Remove the retarded increase to the bombcap (THE SOLUTION THAT WAS DISCUSSED HERE BUT EVERYBODY FORGOT https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=107519)
Situation 3: It is now not meta to confiscate TTVs, leading to security rushing to science as fast as possible at roundstart to get into a brawl with whoever is in toxins and the AI bolts them in. What is even the fucking point then?
Situation 4: Bombs be made somehow more useful for mining, giving them a valid reason to be made in the first place and for metagamers to fuck off. Good luck figuring that one out... since you know thats what their original intent was for.
Situation 5: Everybody deals with it. (Also a fine outcome)

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:13 pm #110415

I think it's fair to lock away the TTVs and have just one TTV on the table. The RD could better control the amount of bombs being made then without powergaming.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:15 pm #110419

Scott wrote:I think it's fair to lock away the TTVs and have just one TTV on the table. The RD could better control the amount of bombs being made then without powergaming.

That does seem reasonable. It should still be a decision left up to the RD though to spice it up. There's likely plenty of absent minded and negligent RDs out there that would allow it.

Of course this would also lead to retarded Jobban requests against RDs who don't have due diligence to control their department.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:27 pm #110458

>Lets make bombs set you on fire
>Lets increase the bomb cap!
>Lets make bombs strip off all your clothes!!

>Bombs 2 OP 4 me, plz nerf!!!1

Why don't you people ever listen to me?

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:20 am #110466

The problem isn't that bombs are too deadly, it's that everything else is too safe.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:14 am #110472

I've seen so many in this thread say "If you say a guy making bombs than go in there and take away his transfer valves"
That's what toxins is MADE for. It exists to MAKE bombs, antagonist or not. You should probably get a better reason than he is just "making" bombs. This is why I think a code solution would be better.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:29 am #110474

Don't reduce the size of the explosion, just whoever was the retard that made it destroy clothing/items, spray debris all over you in conjunct with the lolspacewind changes that make the area a black hole and uninhabitable in seconds makes it absolutely fuckretarded. Rollback them all and we won't a problem, especially if you stash 4~ of the TTVs in the RDs office.

Post by **oranges** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:52 am #110482

just distract them with ERP

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:46 am #110488

Looking at bombs right now, we have TTVs being the sole meta item, so I'm going to throw in a proposed solution:

Remove TTVs and have bombs made from atmospherics valves - This addresses the exceedingly binary meta-nature of TTVs and their exclusivity to toxins.
Use digital valves as the ideal item - Manual valves would be suicidal or very-short-fuse grenades, if you're game.
Reduce the maximum cap of bombs - Cut them drastically, this factor right here is the attribute for game balance.
Reduce the explosion damage scaling - Makes it harder to easily achieve the max cap limit, favouring having the correct tools (toxins). This is another game balance attribute.

So what would the impact of this change be?

Single-backpack-sprees would be nerfed dramatically.
Bombs could be made by departments other than toxins.
Bombing sprees would take longer, giving the crew more time to respond.
Bomb placement becomes more critical, promoting gaining access, sending via disposals, etc.
The limit to the number of bombs you create would be defined by access to the non-valve components.
The components of bombs would be considered more dangerous and worthy of a security concern, particularly plasma itself.
Bombs only become meta-identifiable once assembled, removing the awful meta issue of unassembled TTVs.
Bombers would have to be smarter, not faster, if they want to achieve the same effect as the current range of bombs.

One other issue to address:

Nerf heaters so that they're not a one-stop shop for bombs like they currently are.
Atmos techs now become potential bombers, since they have access to the turbine. Make the turbine drain loop require modification for bomb production?
This might nerf toxins traitors far too much.

So how does this affect the meta? TTVs would no longer be a sole meta-factor in bomb creation. Instead, bombs would be identified by their use, their assembled state, and the mass-collection of the resources needed to make them. Never underestimate the greed of a traitor who wants to be the most cuban of petes. Burn chambers would be more significant, as anyone playing there might be involved in bomb creation. If one wanted to create the same effective destruction as the current bombs, they might need two or three times the assembled resources from across the station, or their own autolathe and RPD to make the parts. Upgraded heaters would be another path to bomb creation, but not the stock ones. Maxcap bombs would be more difficult to make than the current state (which is appallingly easy and promotes nothing but knowing how cold O2 behaves). Proximity bombs may no longer be a guaranteed gibbing.

Thoughts?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:09 am #110492

Digital valves are infinite from an RPD though

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:20 am #110496

Scones wrote:Digital valves are infinite from an RPD though

An astute observation, Scones. I believe that my suggested changes do not permit this as being an issue, as the valve no longer becomes the critical component.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:28 am #110497

Atmos techs are already potential bombers if you know how to make canister/single tank bombs.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:54 am #110524

Yeah, that would just mean more bombs.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:07 am #110526

invisty wrote:
Scones wrote:Digital valves are infinite from an RPD though
An astute observation, Scones. I believe that my suggested changes do not permit this as being an issue, as the valve no longer becomes the critical component.

I do not see this being the case

There has to be something I'm misreading here

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:38 pm #110554

Make bombs bigger.

As in physically bigger.
As in no longer being able to shove your backpack full of all six max caps
As in no longer being able to implant a suicide bomb in your chest cavity

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:19 pm #110562

Malkevin wrote:Make bombs bigger.

As in physically bigger.
As in no longer being able to shove your backpack full of all six max caps
As in no longer being able to implant a suicide bomb in your chest cavity

So make bombs like Gibtonite, have to carry with two hands and can't backpack? Honestly, not a terrible idea.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:46 pm #110568

Except it's a terrible idea.