Economy Implementation

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Antimattercarp
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Economy Implementation

Post by Antimattercarp » #107669

As you may or may not realize, both of the economy pulls fell through because, like bayeconomy, money had no real value assigned to it and worries were had that it would be used to gate already existing content behind arbitrary prices. Not only is this less of a problem than you would think, it is in fact already partially implemented in the code right now: Mining.

As an overview, the mining economy works like this: A miner starts the game with a mining voucher in his backpack which gives him a set amount of mining points which allows him to purchase his starting equipment, as he delivers materials(i.e. Does his job) he earns more points to buy new things and new equipment.

Now applying that to other jobs we get "x job starts with y amount of nanocredits which can be used to purchase m, n, or b equipment, as he completes the [Job mechanism] he earns more nanocredits to purchase different, more powerful/more useful equipment to do his job." This is the central mechanic is how the economy will allow for us to actually balance different equipments around their utility and most importantly reduce the servers reliance on the hackneyed and jury-rigged R&D system for balancing our cooler things, meaning we both get more cool stuff and see that cool stuff more often because instead of relying on some far away, maybe incompetent, scientist who may or may not exist it is instead made to rely on your competence.

The inclusion of an economy also adds a OOC motivation to the game other than antag greentext, something that has long been sorely needed and will provide opportunity for emergent roleplay.

Now that why it exists is established let us move on to how we can implement it properly into the game.
I think that each job should have a set starting amount of cash in their account and a set stipend that filters into their account per pay period along with some mechanism to add more cash as they do their job. The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm how this should go about along with other ideas of how to implement an economy into tg code.

One of the most important departments in this is of course cargo. I foresee cargo switching from a game of "I PRESS THE BUTTONS AND MOVE THE THINGS" to a drugwars!-esque game of arbitrage where the price of certain items fluctuates from time period to time period, where you can stick to the white market and play things nice and fair or go into the black market by switching your ordering board to broadband where there are higher profit margins and rare/unique/illegal items but it carries the risk of having unsavory things come over on the cargo shuttle as well. The also could exist a set of random contracts that you can buy into and have to send back a certain set of items in a limited time period or lose the collateral you invested in the contract.

Engineering is tough to toss into this but could have a factorio-esque system bolted onto it where they build assembly lines to mass produce goods from set designs that are either purchased by cargo on the open market or developed from Science. They could also sell power from their !!EXPERIMENTAL ENGINES!! via !!GIANT SPACE LASER!! thus encouraging them to make more engines and more things.

Science should have the most variable ways to make money, slime growing, xeno-archeology, anomaly capture, and away missions should all be high-skill high-lethality high-profit jobs involving various puzzles to solve and reality TV al la survivorman for the crew to watch via helmet cam in the bar.

Medicals' job is pretty clearly the maintenance of the crew but it could also be a place for the crews augmentation. The only place on the station that has a operating theater in it medical can give integrated toolsets to the engies, eyelamps, blood filters, artificial hearts that allow you to run faster.

Service already grows strange plants that are transformed into even stranger food and drink which can be sold to crew and cargo alike. Being the *Arr Pee* center of the station I suggest integrating the holodeck even more into the department, allowing for an exhibition hall where the department can charge admission to and sell purses for tests of skill, speed, and robustness. Maybe becoming a gambling mecca with bookies allowing bets to be placed on the outcome of boxing matches, poker games, and holo-gladiatorial bouts.

Security of course can now both charge people with crimes and for crimes! Throw em in the gulag if they will not pay and sell their sweat and tears to cargo!
Secs' job is to make sure that the rest of the departments play nice, I could likely dig up something on how an-cap cops work if you want.

Clown and mime work by busking and being entertaining.

Chaplain impounds your dead body :honk:

Now one of my more interesting ideas is that one vending machine somewhere can have a special code entered into it and sell illegal goods to the general public, contraband like syndie gear and voice changers and such just to obfuscate actual syndie activity. The activation code and location is distributed at random to everyone at roundstart and as you join the round so long as you are one of the lesser jobs.

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Stan_Studnick
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Stan_Studnick » #107672

Engineering really shouldn't have any real need for the economy system, they're supposed to be busy fixing shit not supplying the station. Really they should have more to do, machines breaking down, door maintenance so nobody gets sliced in half, and other fun stuff like that so they're a bit more involved. Right now the only thing they ever do is fix broken windows and fix hull breaches after initial setup which takes like a minute, so most of their round is autismfort and when you do actually need them they're either braindead or dead somewhere or off comms for whatever reason.

I posted an idea to expand cargo's functions to include a manufacturing center and the distribution of goods through the disposals/mail system. Everything under this system would be integrated, cargo handling the actual production of science's mad science, basic goods, and also packaging and distributing food from kitchen/botany to be put into vending machines. Blueprints of items could be researched, and maybe the experimentor could be used to buff these blueprints so the finished item gets produced with some fun additional properties. Really it's like little forts now that barely communicate with each other, there needs to be more integration between the departments.

Currently even distributing items is kind of a pain in the ass, using the MULE is buggy and getting people to come down to cargo is hit or miss and the paperwork system (which does clear up a LOT of confusion when it's used) is clunky and dumb. Giving cargo the ability to see orders on their PDAs and see the records of shipping manifests stored would make tracking everything down easier. Also making it so the order progress can be displayed in real time, so everyone can check to see what needs to be done before shipping it out.

Also on the vending machines, instead of some generic cartridge that defines the machine this system would have the machines take generic racks or cartridges that are for a specific item category on the menu. If your 4noraisins run out, putting in a rack of chef-made cheeseburgers would replace the 4noraisins on the menu and display the cheeseburgers instead. Empty racks simply get tossed in the trash where cargo can either recycle them or reuse them.
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by callanrockslol » #107716

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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Miauw » #107729

economy isn't happening

on consideration it's not a very good idea anyway; it's way too hard to provide a proper incentive for people to use it, and an economy system that nobody uses is worse than none at all.

i've thought of most of these and a lot just boil down to "charge people for your services/goods", which people will not be inclined to do.

rip ;_;7
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Celdur
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Celdur » #107969

What you need is to make incentive for people to want more money.
Because that will lead them to charging people for their services.
If the chef doesn't leave all his foods out on the counter, people will have to pay for it or break in, at which point he could call security.
Right now no one wants to RP throwing numbers around because there is no point.
same with paperwork, no one will ever look at paperwork so its just a fun little RP thing you can do and nothing more.

Of course if you have a system where everyone demands to get paid for their services, you have a system where people want money to pay for it, but that's not going to happen on its own.
I think making something similar to the goody vending machine that miners have, and maybe place some other common items behind paywalls too.
At first you might think that adding items behind paywalls would add just that, a paywall, but I'm pretty sure it will add a lot of interesting new dynamics.
Trade between players, thieves and heists, lots of more non antag baddies to chase as a result, and more player interaction in general.
I mean, if you have to buy your hamburgers, that means you strike up a conversation with the chef instead of just rushing by and shoving everything you see down your throat.

I think dick comparisons at round end would help too, to see who or which department made the most dosh.
Also if departments relied on a budget for say, ordering stuff from cargo and such, that would further make people think about money.
I'd say its worth playtesting at least, because right now people zoom passed each other in their treasure hunts for items they need, and no one interacts with each other anymore.
And honestly, even if the whole "charge people for services" doesn't work out, you could have hourly wages for some jobs instead.
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Screemonster
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Screemonster » #108079

The only department that really has to expend anything besides effort or materials is cargo. Chemistry has replenishing energy in the chem dispensers, the chef/botanist grow their ingredients, slimes just reproduce themselves, and so on.

Swapping cargo points out for a cash value and granting the points-allowance-per-minute thing to the various departments in the form of their departmental budget might help, as well as ringfencing things so security don't get coldcocked on a weapons crate because all the roundstart points got spent on crap for engineering's latest aut-fort. Allow the ordering console to pick out an account to charge the order to if approved and you're golden. Sending crap back to centcomm gets paid into the supply budget - cargo would still retain the ability to just provide things on-request using their own allowance, just as they are now with the supply points. This just offers a way for individuals/departments to top the points up (or for the QM to not have to give a shit about wasting points on an art crate for the clown if the clown's paying out of his own pocket)

On the game side of things, tators can be given objectives to embezzle a fuckton of cash since carrying fat stacks of cash around is no longer going to just be a thing that traitors do. (obviously more than they'd be able to get from the briefcase-full-of-cash item - where do you think the syndicate get the funds for those?)
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JackHunt
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by JackHunt » #108092

Maybe a more manageable implementation would just be the cargo revamp. It's smaller, more modular and even if economy doesn't pan out, it's an improvement.
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CPTANT
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by CPTANT » #108096

Give Cargo a more active role.

Cargo's role has been almost completely surpassed by the RnD department. Except for ordering virus crates or ripley crates (and nowadays RnD just prints those themselves) the only real significance cargo really has left is during rev/gang to order either implants or guns. During most traitor rounds cargo isn't even missed when completely absent. Usually the only thing for cargo to do is to shamelessly self enrich with insulated gloves and other gear.

Nobody NEEDS cargo.

Give cargo a list on the cargo console of goods that they can exchange for cargo points. This way cargo becomes an active place of trade as they trade the goods they can order for the goods they need.

Combine this with expanding what cargo can order and tweak prices.
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Saegrimr
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Saegrimr » #108100

CPTANT wrote:Give cargo a list on the cargo console of goods that they can exchange for cargo points. This way cargo becomes an active place of trade as they trade the goods they can order for the goods they need.
Shit that's not a bad idea.

Ship centcom a couple ripleys, and get some durand parts back.
Send a high score printed out report from the bangmeter over at toxins, get back a couple more transfer valves or something as a "good work keep up the research"
Or save research data to a disk and ship that back, get.. fuck i dunno man
Something like that?
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Miauw
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Miauw » #108126

yeah that sounds cool
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Cheimon
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Cheimon » #108234

The reason economy doesn't interest me that much is because it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why in spoilers, I know people don't enjoy reading massive walls of unnecessary text.
Spoiler:
The station is a workplace. Everyone, in theory, has a job. Even assistants. Unlike other servers, there are no tourists.

In a workplace, you do not expect to need to spend your cash to do your job. If I turned up to my current workplace and was told "you'll need to buy these leaflets to hand them out, but don't worry, we'll take that out of your salary" I'd rightly be surprised and annoyed. Likewise, if I was told as a scientist for nanotrasen that I had to buy my way into certain research channels, or that I had to buy practical crates (tools or whatever, not hats) with my own cash as a cargo tech, I'd be equally surprised and annoyed. Workplaces have standards. Even the bar and the kitchen have up till now been presented as complimentary offerings by nanotrasen, a courtesy given that you can't just fuck off the station and buy your own cheaper booze. If I was working on a ship, I would expect the meals to be given for free, because they are part of the equipment to do the job. Same here. Equally, because they're a courtesy the chef doesn't actually have high pressures placed on him, changing that would make it different (and you'd need to entirely redesign the areas so people didn't just loot the bar and kitchen every round).

The only place I would expect to pay my money if I was working on space station 13 would be novelty crates (costumes, hats, that sort of thing), vending machines (these are all unnecessary but nice add ons you could expect to pay extra for), and maybe to make bribes. Those are easy enough to implement, I would think. Mining is an interesting exception to this, but mostly it's still just a vending machine. You are, in theory, given everything you need at the start, the rest is just a bonus.
What's my point? First off, if you're making a personal economy make it just about vending machines and novelty crates (and maybe not even that). Don't try to complicate things by merging the other points systems or adding unnecessary and illogical blocks to gameplay, that doesn't make sense.

Second, in a real workplace the people who spend money are department heads (or rather, they apply to the accounting department, but let's not overcomplicate things). They look at what their section of the company needs, they draw up a budget, they get that budget, and then they spend it.

Make an economy system based on that. It gives the heads power, it fits with established gameplay, it makes integrating cargo sensible, and it eliminates the stupidly complicated everyone gets a salary it ticks up every few minutes etc etc. Ideas of how this will work in spoilers:
Spoiler:
Each head has a budget at roundstart. The captain (not the HoP, this is not a lot of work for cap) can allocate additional funds as the round goes on, and can appeal for additional funds by sending a suitably worded message to centcomm (admins).

Each head can release funds on their console in their office. QM, though not a head (why not?), also has a budget, and HoP has the budget of the service department. Heads can also transfer funds back to the captain or to one another's departments. Assistants have a department budget which the captain controls, although this starts with no money in it (they'll have to buddy up with cargo or the captain for crates). All the other budgets do start with a chunk of money.

Once released, any member of a department can spend the released funds at cargo by requesting a specific crate which then follows the normal cargo crate process.

Items nobody in a specific department can unlock, cannot be ordered by anyone in that department, with the exception of cargo. The CE cannot order lasers, though he can give funds to the HOP to get them from cargo. Likewise, the HOS cannot order emitters. In theory, this is because nanotrasen doesn't want departments wasting points. In reality, it's to make the distinctions between departments meaningful while still allowing the QM to play an important role.

Therefore departments like security will still order laser crates, implants, and so on. They'll have a budget set aside for it (a boost), but it will be more limited without the captain and other heads' assistance (a nerf).

Likewise, the CMO will spend money on things like virus crates and extra supplies, as he already does, and this will have to be carefully managed. Cargo techs can, of course, still reject a request like a virus crate if they don't believe the CMO is okay with it. You will need to have them on side, as will security, but you won't have to persuade cargo to spend their money on your stuff (a boost).

The RD will probably order things like circuit crates if he's lazy or perhaps crates could be expanded to include things like spare slime specimens, fancier labcoats, or whatever. Potentially science could ship things back for more money, but I can't see that working well (science will just figure out how to mass produce the most cost efficient thing and money will become a joke, vastly too easy for science to make).

Service might order things like seeds, spare janicarts, magic sauce, whatever. Oh, the money tree should probably be removed unless physical space cash is only vendors. Again, being able to make way too much money makes the whole system pointless and silly.

The CE is likely to order things like emitters, spare hardsuits, and so on.

So the gate of the cargo technicians isn't too powerful, it is of course a criminal offence to ignore the orders of a head to buy something specifically using his department budget for his department. So if the CE orders an emitter crate and a lowly tech refuses, security can arrest them. This is already theoretically in space law under 'dereliction of duty', just putting it out there as a rules-based rationale behind making sure the techs aren't dicks. Not sure if necessary or not, given they wouldn't be spending their own budget any more.
So, for those who don't want a wall of text (don't blame you) here's the TL;DR of how any economy should work.

Ignore personal salaries, they're illogical and shit. Put in departmental budgets, controlled by heads and overlorded by the captain. Heads get to spend their budgets on what matters to them, cargo still works as the gateway for crates to go in and out, and now the station has money set aside for all the different groups (boost) but a greater limit on each individual one of them (nerf) if they don't cooperate. Best of all, cargo doesn't have to sacrifice its points for stuff they don't see the point of.

This fits with how the game works already, but in some ways enhances it. You don't need to add more stuff for people to buy and you don't have to gate existing stuff behind illogical barriers. Oh, and don't add ways to make ridiculous amounts of money really fast (e.g. spamming mechs onto the cargo shuttle), that will only make the system pointless once the round is 30 minutes in.
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by rdght91 » #108280

I think it'd be better for most departments to have a base salary every five minutes with the head having an ability to bump up salaries with bonuses. That way play is more free and it gives players an OOC reason to give cool shit they can make to the heads.
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Gamarr
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Gamarr » #109512

First, I would like to point out Goon has(or had if its gone now) this, and it served its purpose, while also being a part of some antags objectives. Let that sink in a little; the place people like to laugh at found a way to use credits, and it worked while not making everything just not work if you didn't want to use it. There was even swipers in empty booths for people to set up their own markets, and people loved them from my experience. You could give your whole cheque to the chef, and he would use it to buy good shit from the vendors or cargo, making less dependence upon botany while not nullifying it. It made it easier to just get some basic things too, when cargo doesn't have to worry about losing its points/funds if you cover all/part of the food crate. You could not do anything with your credits too, and the kitchen functioned just like it normally would. But it made things easier, at a basic level and if you had enough and knew what to do, you could have more Fun.

I've wanted economy here for a long time, pretty much since I migrated to tg station, but I've accepted for the most part it will never happen. The players don't care/will whine about it that it just will fizzle, though I do keep a faint hope.

Now onto some points: Cargo should lose the 'free points' system in lieu of this. A fully staffed cargo could easily pool their money to get what their hearts desires more than likely (or should), atop of whatever they take in from people who want things. You could charge more, but if you're actually providing what people want, then they most likely will not care if you have a little mark-up in cost, if it makes sure they get what they want or need.

-Disposals delivery system is very robust imo, with one if its only failings being dependency upon the piping system and how easily it is to compromise it thanks to stupid assistant maintenance being on, in all the glorious no sense it is. But it does work, it just has a limited selection of delivery targets right now imo though that could be easily fixed. The fact nobody uses it/few seem to know even how doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But its there, and useful, and quick enough in sending crates or lockers to destinations.

-I've wanted shuttles to come with... 'extras' depending on ordered things, such as spiderlings in a food crate, or maybe blood-thirsty goats in lieu of your dog. Really the sky is the limit with the amount of fuckery you could do with this. Or a shuttle full of webs, but with the crates nonetheless. More interesting than 'hey want a shuttle of hostile syndicates?'.

-Incentive for depts to actually give you a slime core to send back for money, or any number of things. Hah, even sending corpses back should be possible. I'm sure Centcomm has a bodyfarm or some kind of fertilizer creatoin system to put them to use. Or worse things.

Anyway, tl;dr already perhaps, the topic seems to just gravitate towards that and it seems getting something here implemented with such a lengthy discussion dooms itself to failure with such short attentoin spans.

The economy system will not break things, and other than cargo, imo, does not negate your job. It is there for you to use, for you to give to depts for their own benefit, or you to hoard and mug people over, If you want. It adds a fun element without removing things. Not all depts will be dependent upon it, and shouldn't be. People will find things to do with it, I trust in this, if people give the system a chance.

But they might not, as you can look at metastation for how much people don't want to give something a chance without even trying it, and squirming at 'change.'

Edit: Oh yeah, and no reason for assistants to get paid. They wanna be nobodies, they can be broke hobos, some won' t care anyway, some might. But then it's not had to get some work and this is what moving shit for the RD/miners/cargo is for, and will give them reasons to do something if they wanna be little grey nobodies without actually transferring.
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Stan_Studnick
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Stan_Studnick » #110461

CPTANT wrote:Give Cargo a more active role.

Cargo's role has been almost completely surpassed by the RnD department. Except for ordering virus crates or ripley crates (and nowadays RnD just prints those themselves) the only real significance cargo really has left is during rev/gang to order either implants or guns. During most traitor rounds cargo isn't even missed when completely absent. Usually the only thing for cargo to do is to shamelessly self enrich with insulated gloves and other gear.

Nobody NEEDS cargo.

Give cargo a list on the cargo console of goods that they can exchange for cargo points. This way cargo becomes an active place of trade as they trade the goods they can order for the goods they need.

Combine this with expanding what cargo can order and tweak prices.
Make the cargo-science marriage stronger like I've been suggesting. Move the production aspect of science into cargo and make science about literal science, you're researching things you're not supposed to be building them like an assembly line.

Cargo should be less fetch and deliver and more integrated with the concept of production and supply, it's the only department really geared toward it and the only one explicitly designed for it. Right now the experimentor is useless shit that just makes gimmicky things that don't actually -do- anything, it's easy to get bored because you know in the end you're there because R&D and toxins are taken. I've been saying that science should research and produce blueprints of complex items that are used by cargo to manufacture things, so include the experimentor's functions in that. Make it so experimentation will yield a laser that does 16 damage instead of 15, a t-ray scanner that has a slight range increase, something that improves (not necessarily without cost) existing items and makes the cargo-science thing more than some silly one-way trip. Right now resources go out, and if the miners are lucky they'll get cool stuff in return but it does get boring real quick and especially if science isn't cooperating with you.

Yeah it's upending the entire science department basically but if this happens I guarantee you that both cargo and science will be better departments for it.

EDIT: To clarify I don't want to take away science's ability to make prototypes, I just want to shift the focus of actual production to the station's actual supply chain. I suppose since the production items are in the database that means the protolathe should probably get the ability to spit out multitools and buckets and things like that since I'm imagining it under the same system. Cargo's machine(s) (I'd like more than one type) could obviously do all of this faster and much more efficiently, but an additional idea I had awhile ago was make modular parts for everything and then they get assembled into a usable object. I don't like tablecrafting, but perhaps there could be some assembler machine that takes the spit-out parts and accepts user input into making some usable item.

I think this system would serve both a proposed economy system AND allow for the seamless integration of John Oxford's gunsmithing idea. Either way, making it so cargo can produce items on-station faster would be a definite end-goal for all of this because cargo currently takes awhile to produce even simple orders. That's a side-effect of the cargo shuttle system and interface, and really, that should be addressed as well.
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DemonFiren
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by DemonFiren » #110530

With economy, what I'm honestly waiting for is paying for ERP.
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Alex Crimson
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Alex Crimson » #110546

IMO Lifeweb does economy the best, but that kind of system probably wouldnt work for /tg/.
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Stan_Studnick
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Stan_Studnick » #110630

Also could we make cash persist between rounds? Maybe that might give incentive to using it, I don't know. I have no idea how well that would even work out here.
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Cheimon » #110647

Alex Crimson wrote:IMO Lifeweb does economy the best, but that kind of system probably wouldnt work for /tg/.
For those of us that don't play lifeweb, can you summarise what it does and what's good about it?
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Alex Crimson » #110691

Its mostly decided upon by the players. There are copper coins, as well as silver and gold. 4 coppers = 1 silver, 4 silver = 1 gold. With that as a base the players decide on most of the prices. 1 copper for a drink, 2 for a meal, 14 for a steel sword etc. The Meister(job role) is responsible for paying people wages, although its all done at the players discretion so most of the time you NEVER get paid cuz the Meisters is incompetent.

The Merchant can send items to the city via a cargo ship, and all items give a fixed amount of currency. He can also see the fixed prices for each item when he examines them. So you can run an effective shop.
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Scones
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:46 am
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Scones » #110693

The Merchant is expected to make a profit and all that.

People abused the system endlessly (If you ordered coal + iron from the merchant and made that into steel, the # of steel gorgets you could make would fully reimburse yourself and then give a decent sum left over) however.

Prices being randomized from round to round (Aspect possibility) makes it somewhat interesting.
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Alex Crimson
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:05 pm
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Alex Crimson » #110698

I wouldnt call that abuse. Buying raw materials and making gear out of it to sell at a profit seems like a completely normal thing. If Randy wanted to fix that then he shouldve just made the prices of items crash if the Merchant shipped off too many of them.
Incomptinence
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Incomptinence » #110705

Fun point of economy system could be hop or captain taking out loans from space bank and if they can't be re payed debts collector squad starts repossessing important equipment.
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Scones
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:46 am
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Re: Economy Implementation

Post by Scones » #110713

Yeah but it could be done in minutes and then bam you had mautlet crates being popped open and it was shit
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