Bring back lockboxes

[rdght91]

The firing pin thing is dumb, and greatly reduces the potential lethality (through player vs player actions, rather than dumb "u ded" stuff) of the station because traitors have no way of using guns unless they can break into the armory, in which case, why even bother. I don't know why we got rid of lockboxes for dangerous weapons and installed the firing pin system where it's impossible to actually get firing pins, but fuck that. Firing pins should be easy to make and lockboxes should prevent non-antags from shitstirring with guns.

[Scones]

I like firing pins as a mechanic because they much more directly gate guns behind Security - All access does not mean all guns anymore, unless you are bold enough to retrieve the boxes from the likely guarded Armory.

Syndicate pins are a good handling for the current weapons, especially considering it's not super hard to repin them for station use.

[Falamazeer]

My biggest issue is not being able to remove one pin and use it in another gun, It would just be so handy ya know? I mean, at that point, you already got a gun! why not?

[Shaps-cloud]

You can emag test range firing pins and they'll work at all times, how do people not know this by now

[Wyzack]

Cant you remove firing pins with table crafting?

[lumipharon]

You can emag test range firing pins and they'll work at all times, how do people not know this by now

Because not all antags are traitors, and not all traitors have emags.
What all antags CAN have however, is stealing all/armory access, to unlock lockboxes.

Also lockboxes were a cool and semi secure way to transport things.

[PKPenguin321]

With lockboxes, changelings, cults, traitors, wizards, and nuke ops can access guns without leaving science, provided they have the proper equipment. With the required access on an ID to open the lockbox, any antagonist (except maybe blobs and malfs) can access them without leaving science.

With firing pins, traitors and nuke ops can access guns without leaving science provided that they have an emag, and that's it. Any other antagonist or anyone without an emag is going to have to trek down to the armory (which isn't exactly all that easy to get into) and pray that sec didn't secure the pins, or order more from cargo (which can take several minutes and requires at least cargo access).

It's fuckin' stupid. Bring back lockboxes when?

[onleavedontatme]

Should have just removed the stupid stun revolver instead of gating the guns behind cooperation with security.

All these cool guns in science and the only one that ever gets built is the xray during blob

[Gun Hog]

Bring back GunSci! The few things I do like about firing pins is that it allows non-antagonist Science players to build turrets, DA certain guns for tech level advancement, open nearly any ID locked crate with an Ion Carbine, and perfect the AE gun without bugging Sec or the HoP for armory access. But yes, it is a major nerf to both emagless antagonists AND (non-security) protagonists. Perhaps an ID checker pin can return things to normal?

Firing pins DID achieve their goal of gating Science guns behind Security (barring extreme measures/emag), and limiting the number of guns they can print. It is simply that this goal is no longer desired.

[rdght91]

It's these kind of things that have made the station "safe" in a boring way. We don't want killer singlos that eat the station up instantly, we, well, me, want more emergent, player driven hazards like guns and that sort of thing. The lockbox system still required some effort, not only to research the guns, but to at least steal a security ID or get ahold of a tool that can crack it.

[onleavedontatme]

The biggest problem with bringing back lockboxes is that goofballs machine upgrades give you literally unlimited gold/silver, not to mention incredibly large halls with the ore machine.

You could easily equip entire cults/revs/gangs with stun revolvers for the bare minimum of work.

Our resource system/economy has never been good but it was thrown out the window by that update

[Amelius]

Yes. Simply because it's fucking lunacy that you can have an all-access ID, the Captain's equipment and so forth, yet you can't get firing pins unless you're a traitor and buy an emag, because they're safely locked away in the armory, behind a warden that is always there or under a massive amount of points in cargo AND a locked crate, meaning no one is gonna order that shit. Especially since in order to get firing pins you have to either convince the HoS to give them to you, or be in the armory (in which case you can steal the fucking armory in the first place). It's also anti-fun to disarm a nukeop/DS and suddenly not be able to shoot their guns. I could understand if it was purchaseable thing for the former, but it isn't.

Poor design. Cheridan will never revert his precious baby, regardless of how sensible it is, though. Instead, he'll probably do something ineffectual that won't touch the problem he created like by decreasing the cost of pins in cargo, or allowing pins to be removed and reused from active weaponry. Then we'll have to suffer thourgh this shit for another few months before he makes himself look like a bigger chucklefuck than he already has in the past, then he'll backpeddle and we'll finally get it. Hopefully at least.

Literally the cancer killing the server.

Edit: In conjunct, we want to move away from rounds with fucknothing happening until someone mercifully allows singuloth to escape, plasma to flood, or the station gets bombed, because antags are severely outnumbered by validhunters alone, let alone sec/AI who also, alone, outnumber and outgear them. Lockboxes did their job, but didn't do it so well that suddenly it was impossible to acquire equipment. Four people on the station had access to that equipment - the Captain, the warden, the HoS, and the HoP (giving himself access), but it's viable to acquire one of their IDs to print weaponry, rather than it being almost entirely unviable to acquire them from the armory/cargo.

We want more chaos, more antagonism, more deaths. How the fuck is it fair that a scientist non-traitor antag can do 30 minutes of R&D and get fucknothing out of it, either because minerals are unavailable, or because no one will give them a firing pin. NVs are a toss-up, equip them and sec can just spam flashes like everyone does to utterly cripple you, or flashbang, AND they require minerals. Best thing they get is a BoH, which isn't helpful when you have nothing to fill it with or show for your 30 minutes of work, where genetics would have all the powers, viro a full suite of diseases, xenobio golems, robotics positronics, etc.

The biggest problem with bringing back lockboxes is that goofballs machine upgrades give you literally unlimited gold/silver, not to mention incredibly large halls with the ore machine.

You could easily equip entire cults/revs/gangs with stun revolvers for the bare minimum of work.

... Which requires 40~ minutes of R&D to max it out in conjunct with the magical mineral faerie to come for anything of value to be made. Going for only stun revolvers with no upgrades will eat all the metal in R&D/robotics (sans the metal for a couple borgs) very quickly, then you have to steal an ID from one of the two most robust people on the station, or one of the two guys that very very very rarely leave their office AND in one case, not be seen at the arrivals checkpoint giving themselves access. How is this any different from genetics handing out hulk to every cult member, which doesn't seem to be a problem? Or virology giving out superhealing/stims/weight even/etc. probably at the same time as you'd get stun revolver tech? Heck, you could solve this by making the stun revolver cost a bit more metal, meaning the strategy would be 'functional' but it would eat up metal like mad and it would be risky to acquire for a cult/etc, but it would still be a viable strategy that would help the cult, but not make it a roll.

Keep in mind it was like this for fucking ever, and it was never a problem in the past.

The crusher needs nerfing though.

[Saegrimr]

Did you actually read what Kor said or are you just gonna keep up the anti-cheridan tirade?

[Scones]

"40+ minutes of R&D"

what server are you playing on

[Amelius]

"40+ minutes of R&D"

what server are you playing on

To max it out and receive minerals, it takes 40-50 minutes, depending on competence of both and whether you have access to certain things, similarly if the miner doesn't bring home uranium or diamonds, or the roboticist takes them, you're fucked for research. You can save time by looting the AI upload if you're the RD and the AI will let you, of course. It's not simply to reach stun revolvers, which takes probably 10 minutes, roughly on par with my average time getting a triplestack flawless viro disease (13 minutes). FYI, mining typically comes home with minerals, if they are going to, at the 30 minute mark.

Keep in mind, getting one of those four IDs is fucking difficult. Attack the content of the post, don't cherrypick.

[AdenAbrafo]

Firing pins work against the style of gameplay that the seeming majority wants to move towards. Why were they even added in the first place?
Just because a terrible coder messed up something codewise doesn't mean bad ideas should be kept in. Of course, those issues needs to be dealt with too.

[rdght91]

Can we not make this about individual coders? That will get us no where.

[Amelius]

Can we not make this about individual coders? That will get us no where.

Cheridan was the one that proposed lockboxes, and, being the headcoder he also is the sole one that controls whether or not it's reverted, since HG is gone. He was also the one that stripped of nuke op implants for 'RP purposes' in the same PR (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/6925), then made them unremoveable (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/8107); and, in the thread that had zero people defending him, everyone telling him to revert it, he even posted this nugget of gold:

How is it that I'm the bad guy for "forcing" this shit upon people, but it's ok for people to force explosive implants upon me?

It's awesome that your opinion is worth more than mine!!

. Then he tried to delete the thread later.

This thread is useless and no matter how sound it is, nothing is gonna get reverted unless you force Cheridan to backpeddle like a madman, like he eventually did with explosive implants.

So yeah, it is about an individual coder.

[Antimattercarp]

Oh yay. Everyone knows that the whole departments need to rely on other departments is an important part of the game right?

[PKPenguin321]

The biggest problem with bringing back lockboxes is that goofballs machine upgrades give you literally unlimited gold/silver, not to mention incredibly large halls with the ore machine.

You could easily equip entire cults/revs/gangs with stun revolvers for the bare minimum of work.

Our resource system/economy has never been good but it was thrown out the window by that update

this is in no way a bad thing, considering that as it stands security can easily equip their entire force + any trusted crewmen with a dozen SMGs and an advanced egun, with pins that only let them fire said guns
if sec can have all that crazy shit, why can't cults/revs/gangs?

[lumipharon]

The crusher has nothing to do with that Kor.
Stun revolvers (unless they were changes) only use metal (and maybe glass).

Having firing pins instead of lockoxes just further cements the idea that you need an emag to do anything.
Emag being the exclusive catch all solution to all an antagonist's problems is shitty gameplay.

Bringing back lockboxes doesn't effect non antag gun usage really, since you typically need sec co-operation either way.
This is purely to help non emag traitors, which is the majority of them.

[AdenAbrafo]

The crusher has nothing to do with that Kor.
Stun revolvers (unless they were changes) only use metal (and maybe glass).

Having firing pins instead of lockoxes just further cements the idea that you need an emag to do anything.
Emag being the exclusive catch all solution to all an antagonist's problems is shitty gameplay.

Bringing back lockboxes doesn't effect non antag gun usage really, since you typically need sec co-operation either way.
This is purely to help non emag traitors, which is the majority of them.

This is a good reason to keep them.

[TheNightingale]

A quick reminder that you can easily bribe Cargo with a gun or two (to pop open crates) if they give you a firing pin box. Crack it open in the Test Lab firing range (with a testing range pin) and you're all set.

[PKPenguin321]

>player interaction
>implying that's ever reliable or easy
>"b-but i did it once, that means you can do it every time forever!"

[lumipharon]

Player interaction is all good and dandy for when I want to get my guns as a non antag.
In fact I do just that - either bribe cargo with guns for pins, or just rob the armory with a portal gun when no one's looking.

But for antags, if they've managed to steal the bloody all access, they deserve to be able to access a gun or 2.

[Incomptinence]

Firing pins won't be made possible to remove. Which would let them A make sense and B be actually fun and interactive. This is because all civilian gun class weapons have them inbuilt so miners and scientists can just churn out generic pins and ALSO security would be totally able to remove the pins from their guns and replace them with stupid secure loyalty pins. This update needed to be totally restricted and lobotomised in this way because sadly the pin system could make standard security gear as secure as nuke ops kit. Sorta negates the point of the whole judge dredd locked guns system making it even more traitor biased than the old lockboxes system.

[PKPenguin321]

Firing pins won't be made possible to remove. Which would let them A make sense and B be actually fun and interactive. This is because all civilian gun class weapons have them inbuilt so miners and scientists can just churn out generic pins and ALSO security would be totally able to remove the pins from their guns and replace them with stupid secure loyalty pins. This update needed to be totally restricted and lobotomised in this way because sadly the pin system could make standard security gear as secure as nuke ops kit. Sorta negates the point of the whole judge dredd locked guns system making it even more traitor biased than the old lockboxes system.

you can remove them, but you need a plasma cutter and the pin is destroyed in the process
sec can already upgrade their guns to have loyalty pins
this update is completely in favor of sec officers, are you kidding

[CPTANT]

Firing pins won't be made possible to remove. Which would let them A make sense and B be actually fun and interactive. This is because all civilian gun class weapons have them inbuilt so miners and scientists can just churn out generic pins and ALSO security would be totally able to remove the pins from their guns and replace them with stupid secure loyalty pins. This update needed to be totally restricted and lobotomised in this way because sadly the pin system could make standard security gear as secure as nuke ops kit. Sorta negates the point of the whole judge dredd locked guns system making it even more traitor biased than the old lockboxes system.

you can remove them, but you need a plasma cutter and the pin is destroyed in the process
sec can already upgrade their guns to have loyalty pins
this update is completely in favor of sec officers, are you kidding

I haven't seen loyalty pins in a while, are you sure they are still in the game?

[TheNightingale]

They exist, but you need Combat 6 to get them - that means combat shotguns.

[Cheimon]

People are talking about 'all access' like it's some gold standard of difficult things to steal.

In reality, it's incredibly variable. Either only the captain has it, or one crewman can get it and it'll spread like wildfire. It's not unusual for HOPs to hold an all access lottery, for example, and once some doctor has it they're much simpler to kill, or sometimes the clown will break into the office and quickly spread it with his buddies. When it's out, it's really out.

[lumipharon]

It's not that all access is super hard to get - it's that all access doesn't require a traitor only item (which not all traitor can or will have). Gating guns behind pins means you need either radi the armory (which is full of guns anyway), or to order them from cargo and open the crate without anyone telling sec.

[Incomptinence]

you can remove them, but you need a plasma cutter and the pin is destroyed in the process
sec can already upgrade their guns to have loyalty pins
this update is completely in favor of sec officers, are you kidding

Well that is totally obscure so I had no idea it was a thing.

So yeah okay totally broken feature.

[CPTANT]

with lockboxes you didn't even need all access at all, you just took the crate to the firing range and shot at it with a gun that has a test firing pin.

[lumipharon]

Except that you can't break open lockboxes - neither with damage or emps, so no.
That only works on crates.

[DemonFiren]

You can emag them open.

[AdenAbrafo]

Connect firing pins to IDs instead, just add a new permission under the 'security' category. This makes no sense whatsoever and I have no idea how you could explain it but it would work gameplay-wise. I guess it even makes sense a little since if doors can automatically scan your id a gun can too.

[lumipharon]

You can emag them open.

And the entire point of this thread is the fact that not all antags have, or even have access to emags.

[DemonFiren]

Exactly.

So lockboxes can fuck right off, you can pop a crate of firing pins with an EMP, a drill, or fuck-knows-why-you-need-them-if-you've-got a gun.

[lumipharon]

This also involves getting a crate from cargo, without cargo/sec/anyone else knowing or caring why you're gettin them.
Or you know, you could just order a crate of guns and skip the science step altogether.

[PKPenguin321]

Exactly.

So lockboxes can fuck right off, you can pop a crate of firing pins with an EMP, a drill, or fuck-knows-why-you-need-them-if-you've-got a gun.

nigga have you even read the thread
like half of this whole fuckin' thing has been about why this point is shit
fuck, man

[DemonFiren]

Exactly.

So lockboxes can fuck right off, you can pop a crate of firing pins with an EMP, a drill, or fuck-knows-why-you-need-them-if-you've-got a gun.

nigga have you even read the thread
like half of this whole fuckin' thing has been about why this point is shit
fuck, man

[rdght91]

Is this going to happen? Seems almost everyone supports it.

I've literally one once seen guns used against anything other than a blob since firing pins, and it was a basil round where the captain had an SMG they used to shoot a traitor.

[DemonFiren]

My biggest issue is not being able to remove one pin and use it in another gun, It would just be so handy ya know? I mean, at that point, you already got a gun! why not?

I totally forgot that this was an issue.

Actually, if you can make it so that pins can be removed intact, the problem would probably just poof and disappear. You can order a foam force crate without any suspicion, or just play the arcade until you get a toy gun.
Then all you need is a plasma cutter...or, here's a fun game, use the plasma cutter to remove its own pin.

[TheNightingale]

How about a "civilian pin" for non-weapon weapons, then, like cap guns or floral somatorays or foam force guns? Maybe it just can't be removed, or maybe it only works in those specific guns.

[Gun Hog]

How about a "civilian pin" for non-weapon weapons, then, like cap guns or floral somatorays or foam force guns? Maybe it just can't be removed, or maybe it only works in those specific guns.

Those guns have basic unlocked pins upon spawning, and come ready to fire. The Portal Gun is this way as well. You can use a plasma cutter and some tools to destroy a weapon's firing pin, but there is no way to safely remove an unlocked pin from one gun for placement in another, else the whole concept would be reduced to pointless tedium.

[Vekter]

As it stands, ALL guns require a firing pin. This includes foam force guns, somatorays, Kinetic Accelerators, and oddly enough, Wizard staves.

If you make pins removable, getting working guns without restriction would be so trivial you might as well remove pins entirely.

[PKPenguin321]

As it stands, ALL guns require a firing pin. This includes foam force guns, somatorays, Kinetic Accelerators, and oddly enough, Wizard staves.

If you make pins removable, getting working guns without restriction would be so trivial you might as well remove pins entirely.

good thing we're not talking about removing pins from guns and instead we're talking about putting guns in lockboxes

[Cheimon]

I say we ignore the lockbox suggestion and make pin production possible in engineering, a la gunsmithing.

[Stan_Studnick]

Connect firing pins to IDs instead, just add a new permission under the 'security' category. This makes no sense whatsoever and I have no idea how you could explain it but it would work gameplay-wise. I guess it even makes sense a little since if doors can automatically scan your id a gun can too.

NO! NOOOOOOOO! No fucking ID locks on guns holy shit that was fucking terrible on Facepunch server it was literally the dumbest and most frustratingly stupid shit I have ever seen.

Why is everyone so goddamn afraid of the crew having guns? 99% of the time nothing happens anyway, and if a traitor wants to traitor then why have all these arbitrary restrictions that just drag shit on and are frustrating and annoying? Just make it an IC issue rather than some stupid code restriction that A: doesn't make things fun or interesting and B: doesn't make any sense anyway.

I say we ignore the lockbox suggestion and make pin production possible in engineering, a la gunsmithing.

Or the "supply" department because engineering has no reason to be producing anything. I'm 10000% for gunsmithing also, if it's out in the open and plainly visible then the captain or sec staff shouldn't have any reason to worry. Ghetto gunsmithing should absolutely be a thing too, and make pipe guns craftable without the need for R&D. (why this was ever a thing, I don't know)

[PKPenguin321]

you can craft a ghetto gun, the pressure cannon thing
and it's pretty robust too, it can crit in one shot if you load it right


but that's aside the point, purge firing pins, bring back lockboxes