Final Armour/Weapon Proposals

[Steelpoint]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Again am I missing something?

If your talking about the transition from RNG to static defence its been proven countless times, statisticly, that there is NO difference between the two systems in how much damage you blocked. On average you blocked the exact same amount of damage for both systems.

[Steelpoint]

Also why do we keep adding more stuff to posts after you post it?

Either way.

If armour stripping is really the deal breaker then we can look at it, but I should note that last I checked only higher tier armour had longer stripping times.

[onleavedontatme]

Again am I missing something?

Stungloves.

Polyacid spray.

Hulk in the first 10 minutes.

Infinite ebows

Taser eguns

Infinite range tasers

Borg tasers

Tabling

Quickchoke

Loooooooooong slipping time/instantly applied water

Parasting

Flashes stunning

Chloral

And so on.

All those things ignored armor. Everyone had very, very, very easy access to stuns that were coded to bypass armor entirely. The armor then came off without any delay while stripping. Armor literally did not matter. It was, in fact, a fancy looking holster. Most of the things

[TechnoAlchemist]

The poll speaks for itself, this isn''t needed or wanted.

[Stan_Studnick]

The poll speaks for itself, this isn''t needed or wanted.

Or maybe it's the way this has turned into an argument that's completely unproductive, anyone new coming into the thread isn't going to read through and see the suggestions, they're just going to go off the OP (that Steelpoint should have edited) and vote.

I'm going to have to agree with Steelpoint, playing security sucks dick if you're trying to follow the rules and your current vulnerabilities (and the stupid shitty nerfs on all the gear) mean you need to basically harmbaton more often than not. I've played security a lot on here and on other servers, on here taking on more than one person anytime under any circumstance is suicide, and that's often the case because security isn't fun to play so it's understaffed. So you either go semi-lethal and hope for the best or you just back off and go back to hunting the changeling while everyone calls you shitcurity for not doing your job.

Oh, and (to address a point in the thread that's bothered me) on what fucking planet can anyone expect a shitty piece of glass tied to a metal pole to go through body armor? That wouldn't even defeat obsolete canvas flak jackets let alone modern kevlar vests. Either make it so spears can be made with other items (ideally some system for metalworking would be great to have) that aren't ridiculous and therefore have different levels of quality of spear, or accept that even the makeshift weapons that were never supposed to be super robust anyway shouldn't fuck over an armored opponent. This is a symptom of a greater problem and as much as I love lizards they're a great example of that, it's that "slippery slope" argument in action.

Steelpoint's trying to unfuck something that got broken somewhere. Armor currently does nothing, and that doesn't promote an atmosphere of "paranoia" it promotes an atmosphere of "why play this, it's stupid" which is far short of anyone's goals for what the game should be. Maybe the values Steelpoint put up aren't what they need to be but I think this armor thing needs to be looked at.

MY SUGGESTION: This thread dies, and Steelpoint reworks the idea into something more viable then reposts it.

[Scones]

When will people realize that Security sucks to play while there are server rules at all? Law works as a concept via threat of violence and harm to the individual, but when there are third party omniscient beings protecting you, what is there to fear? What reason is there to obey or enforce the law beyond the chance of a minor inconvenience?

Anways, Steelpoint's armor values are bad because killing people is about frontloading damage and making people unstoppable tanks is not fun for either side.

[Stan_Studnick]

When will people realize that Security sucks to play while there are server rules at all? Law works as a concept via threat of violence and harm to the individual, but when there are third party omniscient beings protecting you, what is there to fear? What reason is there to obey or enforce the law beyond the chance of a minor inconvenience?

Except the laws aren't in question, it's the ability of the officers to actually enforce them without ahelping because a pack of shitheads cornered them and took all their shit after a few good whacks that sent them into crit. Those third party beings will enforce the rules when they're broken, everything else is in-character which is what we're discussing.

Anways, Steelpoint's armor values are bad because killing people is about frontloading damage and making people unstoppable tanks is not fun for either side.

But that's not what's happening here, even if the armor values Steelpoint originally suggested were put through it wouldn't make security officers invincible. What it would do is actually justify having to gang up on a security officer and it would actually give real tangible meaning to stealing sec items. Nobody gives a shit if some assistant has some body armor because it's worthless (I do simply because it's a restricted item, but I'm usually overruled) and that's a problem.

[Zilenan91]

Ever since I started playing Lifeweb, I've realized exactly how shit sec was on this server. It isn't because of them having worse gear, or being less robust players, it's that the rules are a thing. You cannot ever step out of the lenient brig times currently set on the security page (or you can because admins have literally given conflicting judgements on whether or not it has to be adhered to or disregarded) without getting bwoinked/banned. You cannot ever kill anyone unless they are an antag or you will be bwoinked/banned/have a ban request put up. You cannot ever stop things like Toxins or R&D working because of all the dangerous shit that comes out of it or else you will be bwoinked/banned. You cannot ever beat/arrest anyone for disrespecting you or you will be bwoinked/banned.

All of this contributes to a stagnant and shit roleplay environment. There is no spontaneity or uniqueness to any round. The rules are forcing every player, not just security, to play in one specific way or they will be bwoinked and banned. It's shit.

But then again, all of this comes right back around to the very core of how /tg/ is designed. /tg/ is designed around everyone having a job that they do to waste time whilst an antagonist makes something happen. Antagonists that don't make anything happen are therefore called shit antagonists. This would not happen if greytiding was encouraged, accepted, and allowed. It would allow for more interesting rounds from all parties, and not just enable sec tasing and gulagging random people on the streets, but for cargo ordering big fuck-off guns, and daring anyone to come at them, or for engineering to ask for demands of materials or else they will release the singularity, or Science autisming for 45 minutes then making mechs and killing everyone because nerds are the master race, or for assistants to collectively band together as the ultimate, primitive spear tribe and chuck spears and shoot makeshift shotguns at all of the non-grey, all completely allowed by admins (and not just in boring rounds).

Now, I know what you're saying, "But Zile, if every round devolves into this murderfest, what will be left? Why would anyone accept this since the community has such a low tolerance to dying?"
What should be asked is WHY the server has such a low tolerance for dying.

The reason the server has such a low tolerance for dying is because there are SO MANY WAYS to be instantly back on your feet that it's not even funny. This is mostly due to our medical system being very basic. Heck, how many times have you been killed in maint, but said to yourself, "If someone finds my body, I'll just get cloned or defibbed and be right back on my feet to rat out the bastard that did this!" and this is shit. This isn't shit because it's ratting out an antagonist, but from the fact that you can come back from death so very very easily. It's ridiculous. My suggestion for this would be to remove defibs and severely nerf the cloner to take far longer. If you die it should actually have an impact, not just "Oh shit I just have to alt tab for a minute or two, get dressed, and fuck around with cryo for a while until I'm better. Yay weapon lethality!"

One last thing before I end my rant, but I would like to say that a more "lethal" game isn't exactly what we want. I think I see the core of the desire being that people want dying to have consequences, but just aren't addressing the core of the problem being that it's so easy to recover damage. Because of this, they buff weapons. They buff weapons, and they buff weapons. Then they nerf armor. And then they buff weapons.

[Shaps-cloud]

When will people realize that lifeweb =/= SS13. Yeah it's cool that you can do literally whatever in lifeweb and shit, but SS13 isn't lifeweb and it really shouldn't try to be. Lifeweb had totally different design principles, different themes, different playerbases, and different overarching philosophies. Yeah security is accountable for the things they do, because unlike lifeweb where people in many cases are literally worth more dead than alive and everything is shit, there are parties outside the station that actually give a shit about what happens on the station (Centcom). If you were massive shitcurity and executed the clown for slipping you once, you better fucking bet that you're gonna get investigated by internal affairs. It's cool that you can do whatever as a soldier in lifeweb and just straight up kill people you don't like and get away with it because of corruption, but security on SS13 isn't a secret police deathsquad who can kill indiscriminately, they're professionals who are held to standards, which is a good thing.

Also, don't try and say that admins are bloodthirsty for bwoinking poor sec officers when they're trying to deal with greytiders. Unless you're perma'ing the clown for slipping you once and then shaking you back up, admins are very hands off with security, and only gross abuses of power set off the admin alarms enough to warrant a bwoink (which even then is most likely just asking for their side of the story). Again, if you abused your power constantly as security IC, you wouldn't be there very long, you'd get investigated and kicked off the team before the blood dried on your harmbaton. This isn't lifeweb, stop trying to act like it is.

[Saegrimr]

Welcome to what happens when people treat a roleplaying game too much like a "gotta win at space" video game.

[Scones]

All he said was that playing another game has made him re-evaluate his view of things in this game. Somewhat tangental and an elaboration on what I said, but nevertheless correct.

[Zilenan91]

When will people realize that lifeweb =/= SS13. Yeah it's cool that you can do literally whatever in lifeweb and shit, but SS13 isn't lifeweb and it really shouldn't try to be. Lifeweb had totally different design principles, different themes, different playerbases, and different overarching philosophies. Yeah security is accountable for the things they do, because unlike lifeweb where people in many cases are literally worth more dead than alive and everything is shit, there are parties outside the station that actually give a shit about what happens on the station (Centcom). If you were massive shitcurity and executed the clown for slipping you once, you better fucking bet that you're gonna get investigated by internal affairs. It's cool that you can do whatever as a soldier in lifeweb and just straight up kill people you don't like and get away with it because of corruption, but security on SS13 isn't a secret police deathsquad who can kill indiscriminately, they're professionals who are held to standards, which is a good thing.

Also, don't try and say that admins are bloodthirsty for bwoinking poor sec officers when they're trying to deal with greytiders. Unless you're perma'ing the clown for slipping you once and then shaking you back up, admins are very hands off with security, and only gross abuses of power set off the admin alarms enough to warrant a bwoink (which even then is most likely just asking for their side of the story). Again, if you abused your power constantly as security IC, you wouldn't be there very long, you'd get investigated and kicked off the team before the blood dried on your harmbaton. This isn't lifeweb, stop trying to act like it is.

I never once said that admins were overzealous or bloodthirsty. They're doing their job and enforcing the rules. There is nothing wrong here, they are doing what they should be doing. Also, you seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying here, I'm not advocating for no rules, but lessened rules. Granted, I might not have made that point the clearest, but it's the one I'm making, /tg/ will just never work if we have no rules or boundaries without a complete change of the game, something that nobody wants. But even admins have said that sometimes the rules just feel too restrictive, and I feel if we lessened them slightly, it would be better for the game as a whole.

Heck, the only reason I noted Lifeweb in my original comment is because it's so well designed. Randy, despite how he acts, knows how to design a game. Everything is like it is for a reason, all working to be one focused experience that works incredibly well. I was saying we could take some ques from Lifeweb about how we could make /tg/ better, because as it stands, Lifeweb is just the objectively better game.

[Steelpoint]

I edited the OP, mainly to get rid of the EOD suggestion and slightly lower a few values.

[PKPenguin321]

still no good
leave armor values alone

[duncathan]

le ve arm r valu s alon?

[PKPenguin321]

yes

[tuypo1]

EDIT: Recently as the HoS a cultist with the double barrel ambushed me in maint. He shot me twice before I could even react. Lucky for me, my armor made me immune to the firepower he could muster, and I tased him, swapped modes, and killed him within seconds. Felt cheap.

I don't see this as a bad thing. To take on the most powerful Security force on-station, you have to be prepared to some extent more than 'have a gun'. He could've used a stun talisman, poisoned darts, pulse slugs or another cultist as backup, but he took on the HoS with just a double-barrel shotgun and, predictably, lost.
To take on a typical civilian, any old weapon will work. A double-barrel loaded with buckshot or slugs, maybe. A Security Officer or Detective requires more work (but the rewards are far greater - not only do you get Security gear to use or impersonate them with, but also the ID, flashbang protection, and one less enemy to deal with). The Warden, even more so - if they're not guarding the Armory (they should be), they'll at least have one lethal with them, so prepare accordingly.
And the HoS is the last word when it comes to station security - so naturally, it's going to be very difficult to take them down if you're unprepared.

for the most part i agree with the basic idea with what your saying but you should be able to manage to beat any human with a sudden ambush with a double barrel it rewards good ambushing skills and feels right. at the very least you should not be able to fight back against that that easily

[tuypo1]

Should I have to write a essay out every time I reply to someone?

If you want me to sure, but that will not accomplish much.

just stop pretending peoples ligitiment comments are unrelated to the topic at hand

and a few other things but mostly that

[tuypo1]

You cannot ever stop things like Toxins or R&D working because of all the dangerous shit that comes out of it or else you will be bwoinked/banned.

most of your post i agree with in theory but never actually see only time i have ever been bwoinked as sec that i can think of is when i put somebody in the sanitarium and got bwoinked but i dident get baned i communicated with the admin and was told it was a little unfair to take somebody out of the round so i released them and even then it turned out he was only acting like that because of a badmin granted objective which would have had a lot to do with it. im going of track though because i want to address the thing i quoted.

i fucking hope you get bwoinked if you shit on toxins scientists for doing there job its not only meta but punishes people that really do just want to do there job or learn the skills for when they are an antag.