Deadly Combat

[yackemflam]

So I'm trying to buff damage overall to help counter stun based combat.

Problem:
Valid McTraitor buys an adrenaline implant because sec always has tasers
Valid McFluke buys a Misc items because he wants to do something fun and new, he also buy an e-sword
Valid McTraitor emags into the armory and steals all of the tasers and energy guns
Valid McFluke gets caught with traitor items and gets stunned after hitting a sec officer with a e-sword twice
Valid McTraitor gets caught with armory items and gets stunned, he activates his implants and stun the officer instead
Valid McFluke gets executed
Valid McTraitor gets to go off and murderbone the crew with little opposition because he stuns and lase everyone to death

Problem #2:
Urist McAssistant see Valid McTraitor in full sec gear murdering the comdom.
Urist McAssistant grabs his spear and gores Valid
Valid laughs off the damage and pulls out a taser
Valid takes 3 more hits
Valid shoots Urist in the face with the gun
Urist gets stunned
Valid takes out a energy gun and shoots Urist in the face 5 times.
Urist is now in crit
Valid McTraitor took ~40 damage and is still in a good position to keep fighting

Problem #3:
Riot gear is useless outside of blob

My proposition is to scale damage so that stuns are not the be all end all thing to do in combat.

Melee weapons will get a larger damage boost while guns, poison, and the such will still be about the same.

This will keep stuns as a good use to stop someone but it also gives everyone a chance to win fights, from assistant to traitors to sec to others.

This also gives sec an excuse to wear full riot gear during revs.

How is this different from HG's 30% damage boost?

I will keep in mind on which items will need more damage than others so that balance will be put into question.

[paprika]

Make toolboxes great again

[Zilenan91]

We should go back to the 30% damage boost

[yackemflam]

We should go back to the 30% damage boost

I`ll base the damage boost around that.

[Cheridan]

You can't somehow nerf stuns by increasing damage.

Because then I just stun you and kill you even faster than I did before.

[yackemflam]

You can't somehow nerf stuns by increasing damage.

Because then I just stun you and kill you even faster than I did before.

Stuns will still be stuns, but this also gives the guy with a stun weapon a smaller window.

Also, would you rather have everyone win only by stunning 100% of the time, or would you rather give the other guy a chance on winning a fight, though small.

[yackemflam]

All stun based combat does is promoting people to a.raid armory b.make stun weapons c.find stun weapons

Stun -> shoot -> dead
Stun -> beat -> dead
beat -> get stunned -> dead
shoot -> get stunned -> dead
Speed > protection in any form of combat
1 stun = death
4 melee ranged wielded spear stabs = no death

[Cheridan]

Oh right, another thing. The rate that melee weapons stun/KO is directly related to the damage they do! So your clever plan to reduce reliance on stuns ends up increasing the amount of stuns.

And of course if EVERYONE is running around with deadly melee weapons, if I want to beat them, what am I going to do? Oh right! I'm going to try and STUN THEM FIRST so they can't use those deadly melee weapons and to fight back kill me!

[yackemflam]

Oh right, another thing. The rate that melee weapons stun/KO is directly related to the damage they do! So your clever plan to reduce reliance on stuns ends up increasing the amount of stuns.

And of course if EVERYONE is running around with deadly melee weapons, if I want to beat them, what am I going to do? Oh right! I'm going to try and STUN THEM FIRST so they can't use those deadly melee weapons and to fight back kill me!

Aye, go ahead and rely on your stuns. It still doesn`t change the much. All it does is make stuns a bit less reliant on.

[paprika]

You don't really nerf ranged combat by making melee combat stronger, you nerf ranged combat by nerfing ranged combat

If you want the game to be 'fair' for everyone, 2 hit crits from melee is not the way to do it, in fact, LOWER damage across the board is how you make games more skill-based

[yackemflam]

Here's the thing, both ranged combat AND stun combat are strong.
Why not make everything strong rather than making everyone run around beating each other to death in 20 hits with nerf bats.

[Incomptinence]

Look if you can like 2 hit a guy without using stuns they stop being so zomb da besht 1 shot i ded plz nurf.

Like you can still stun but that's an additional step you could fight faster not taking. What makes stun combat supreme is that its like hit guy 4 times to crit with shit like a fucking esword way more for anything else, I mean you can still go for it but the cookie cutter stun guy has the advantage gaining relative safety from you in one step.

Yes stun then execute would still exist but other people could kill maybe better without it.

[Ezel]

Remove tasers
Replace with disablers
Test merge it for a week
Problem fixef

[Ezel]

Remove tasers
Replace with disablers
Test merge it for a week
Problem fixef

[Ezel]

Remove tasers
Replace with disablers
Test merge it for a week
Problem fixed

[Ezel]

Remove tasers
Replace with disablers
Test merge it for a week
Problem fixed

[MMMiracles]

post
post again
once more for effect
Problem fixef

[DemonFiren]

Twice more, actually.

[PKPenguin321]

Remove tasers
Replace with disablers
Test merge it for a week
Problem fixed

be wrong
post on forums
post it 3 more times
still be wrong

[paprika]

Here's a reason to keep tasers: It makes arresting easier for new players

Here's a reason to remove tasers and all ranged instastuns: git gud

[Incomptinence]

Try taking disablers against a nuke team. Not everything has to be focused around codling and nursing criminal scum. The criminal does not deserve a million chances he's the bottom of the food chain in threats and should be crushed as such.

[Zilenan91]

We can't remove tasers unless we made the game more lethal. Lifeweb levels of lethal. Unless the game ever comes to that state nobody will ever actually come in to sec by their own will in fear of their own life unless they're being stunned to get them there.

[ShadowDimentio]

The "I hate stun combat" Cycle

1: I hate stun combat
2: Buff damage
3: Stuns become even more of a death sentence
4: Your changes are reverted because it only made the game worse
5: Go back to 1

[paprika]

Try taking disablers against a nuke team. Not everything has to be focused around codling and nursing criminal scum. The criminal does not deserve a million chances he's the bottom of the food chain in threats and should be crushed as such.

Uh, why?

The armory has lasers for this exact reason, and now the AI doesn't have shitborgs to stun you for lasering nuke ops.

Also, removing instastuns has less to do with sec (because they're fine for sec) and more to do with literally anyone else having tasers/ranged stuns which is not hard at all to aquire

[Zilenan91]

We could always do it like Lifeweb does it and make tasers require you to stun every individual body part, but put them down for much longer.

Then again this would need a lot of fundamental changes with the medical system to work so I'm not sure how doable it'd be.

[ShadowDimentio]

We could always do it like Lifeweb does it and make tasers require you to stun every individual body part, but put them down for much longer.

Then again this would need a lot of fundamental changes with the medical system to work so I'm not sure how doable it'd be.

This is the single worst idea I've ever heard

Ok great I tasered a guy in the head, which is often hard enough to do as is, now I just gotta adjust my target and shoot his chest and all four limbs-- oh no I'm dead.

[Zilenan91]

Tase the legs, he drops, tase the arms, he can't hit you, then cuff his ass and if he doesn't stop squirming kill him, which would likely be easier since it would be far harder to nonlethally subdue someone.

[Atticat]

We could always do it like Lifeweb does it and make tasers require you to stun every individual body part, but put them down for much longer.

Then again this would need a lot of fundamental changes with the medical system to work so I'm not sure how doable it'd be.

This is the single worst idea I've ever heard

Ok great I tasered a guy in the head, which is often hard enough to do as is, now I just gotta adjust my target and shoot his chest and all four limbs-- oh no I'm dead.

Lifeweb combat is incredibly more interesting and fun than ss13 imo. Of course that's because ss13 laid the groundwork and lifeweb took the next steps. If you get hit in the arm with a laser, that arm should disintegrate, or something. Combat has no nuance and no consequence currently.

[DemonFiren]

>if you get hit in the arm with a laser, that arm should disintegrate
Found the guy who hasn't been on the server since before gatlings.

[Incomptinence]

Are the gatlings gone yet?

Oh lord still constructible. Might as well have anyone not totally immune to ranged weapons pack up and go home. My desire for deadly things sorta stops at something that evaporates a living room and most likely you instantly whenever wherever for the functionally the rest of the round forever, like it doesn't even require a mech or something sheesh.

[yackemflam]

The "I hate stun combat" Cycle

1: I hate stun combat
2: Buff damage
3: Stuns become even more of a death sentence
4: Your changes are reverted because it only made the game worse
5: Go back to 1

Stuns has always been a death sentence, you could nerf damage and things wouldn't change for people with stuns. This give people a chance on combating stuns.

[Lumbermancer]

Remove tasers
Replace with disablers
Test merge it for a week
Problem fixed

We already did that once.

[Atticat]

If you get hit in the leg with a laser, it should be serious, you should risk losing that entire leg, forced to crawl yourself across the station, screaming. If the chef takes a butcher knife to my hand, I should be in danger of losing fingers, or the whole hand. If somebody hits your arm with an Esword, that arm should go flying off in an arc, blood spewing out from the remains of your appendage. You should be able to cut people's eyes out, leaving them blind. Getting stabbed deeply should cause different organs to be damaged that must be repaired. A rogue engineering cyborg should be able to rip people's arms off completely, leaving horrifying screams of agony.

[Zilenan91]

That's the issue, making the game where it would be incredibly lethal, but also remain forgiving enough so that it's not just removing people from the round instantly. The only reason Lifeweb gets away with it is because people can respawn and continue playing the game. Their stat system also helps a lot with this because it and their medical system ensure that massive, boring murder sprees don't happen there unless it's from something completely inhuman like a zombie or a changeling.

[Shaps-cloud]

Ss13 is much faster than lifeweb, I'd rather be able to take a fair amount of punishment, patch myself up with a grimace and an action movie quote and get back into the action than have my round ended from one stray laser. What's so wrong with being able to deal with injuries quickly and efficiently when there are so many ways you can get killed/heavily wounded out of nowhere and things are moving so fast?

[Zilenan91]

You cannot have a game with the speed of our server have lethal combat without there being items that instantly heal your injuries, or allowing respawn that aren't in ridiculously gimped, almost punishment roles like we currently have.

[ShadowDimentio]

Everyone always talks about how "dismemberment would revolutionize combat and make SS13 great again!" but speaking as someone who defected to Goon for half a year I can tell you dismemberment was just a huge pain in the ass. You could walk down a hallway and a wizard could throw a fireball in your general direction and you'd lose an arm and a leg. Then guess what you had to do instead of go fight him? Staple your limbs back on, then find him again and HOPE he doesn't throw another fireball.

[Ezel]

Everyone always talks about how "dismemberment would revolutionize combat and make SS13 great again!" but speaking as someone who defected to Goon for half a year I can tell you dismemberment was just a huge pain in the ass. You could walk down a hallway and a wizard could throw a fireball in your general direction and you'd lose an arm and a leg. Then guess what you had to do instead of go fight him? Staple your limbs back on, then find him again and HOPE he doesn't throw another fireball.

You just needed to weld it to stop the bleeding and fight him if you still have another hand

[ShadowDimentio]

While moving literally at a crawl? Not gonna happen. Mobility is everything in SS13. If you stand still (or moving incredibly slowly as it were) you're going to get fucked 100% of the time.

[yackemflam]

The only good reasoning I`ve seen in this is because damage = stun chance
Which doesn`t even counter argue my initial proposal.
Buff melee damage so that everyone has a better chance.