Whitelist nukeops

[InsaneHyena]

There is no antag with worse than reputation than nuke ops. Even cult with it's horrible winrate isn't such a meme. There's a reason they're called fluke ops so often - the server picks random people, who may very well be unrobust disorganized scrubs, and throws them at the force that has at least superior numbers, but also often superior skill at their side - and this is something no amount of telecrystals can overcome. I know this issue's been hotly debated before, but I'll raise it again. Do you think nuke ops should be whitelisted? If so, who are the players you would whitelist?

[lzimann]

whitelist stuff is a bad idea, how the fuck people are supposed to learn if they can't play that role

[yackemflam]

And fluke ops are wayyyyyy more fun to watch than to watch a group of 5 efficient people who stealth kill the capt, kill the ai, bomb armory, and destroy the mining shuttles/teleporters on the station in 10 minutes tops.

[paprika]

whitelist stuff is a bad idea, how the fuck people are supposed to learn if they can't play that role

This is the most infuriating fucking thing on the planet. I hate how this is a fucking admin saying this too.

YOU DON'T LEARN ANTAGS BY 'PLAYING' THEM AND FLOUNDERING AROUND FOR 40 MINUTES SETTING UP YOUR LOADOUT. YOU LEARN BY SPECTATING, FIGHTING THEM, OR READING THEIR WIKI ENTRY.

80% OF NUKE OP PLAYERS DO NONE OF THE ABOVE ON THEIR FIRST TIME. IT'S FUCKING SHIT.

Nuke op either needs to be massively streamlined (kill this shitty uplink system please) or needs to have like a 3+ month wait period because retards who have barely played sabotage nuke rounds most of the time and as a result the gamemode needs to be balanced around most of your team being complete fucking shitters.

Next time I hear "but how will they learn without playing the role?" I'm probably gonna lose faith in the ability of our playerbase to recognize the many, many alternative forms of training that aren't a 'trial by fire' aka 'piss off people who actually know how to play nuke op and finally rolled it'

[MisterPerson]

whitelist stuff is a bad idea, how the fuck people are supposed to learn if they can't play that role

This is the most infuriating fucking thing on the planet. I hate how this is a fucking admin saying this too.

YOU DON'T LEARN ANTAGS BY 'PLAYING' THEM AND FLOUNDERING AROUND FOR 40 MINUTES SETTING UP YOUR LOADOUT. YOU LEARN BY SPECTATING, FIGHTING THEM, OR READING THEIR WIKI ENTRY.

80% OF NUKE OP PLAYERS DO NONE OF THE ABOVE ON THEIR FIRST TIME. IT'S FUCKING SHIT.

Nuke op either needs to be massively streamlined (kill this shitty uplink system please) or needs to have like a 3+ month wait period because retards who have barely played sabotage nuke rounds most of the time and as a result the gamemode needs to be balanced around most of your team being complete fucking shitters.

Next time I hear "but how will they learn without playing the role?" I'm probably gonna lose faith in the ability of our playerbase to recognize the many, many alternative forms of training that aren't a 'trial by fire' aka 'piss off people who actually know how to play nuke op and finally rolled it'

It's an argument for streamlining, not an argument for doing nothing. Unless one is trying to argue the current situation is fine, then feel free to pull out the yelling.

People should expect to learn by doing. That's how all good games work. That's how 99% of all games period work. Why do we insist on throwing so many unnecessary hurdles in front of the nuke ops?

[paprika]

If you can have nuke op on despite not having your grips on the game (hint, a longer time barrier) or before even seeing a nuke op ingame/fighting against one, you really should not be able to fuckin roll into them.

It's absolutely bizarre that this can happen to new players and sabotage nuke op rounds. Nuke op rounds are highly competitive, moreso than traitor, because nuke ops are the only antag that doesn't need to rely on stealth and can be balanced as being on-par with a crew full of bloodthirsty employees in regular combat, not just 'who ambushes who first'.

This kind of combat doesn't allow for the rookie mistakes of people not yet attuned to the robust combat system of ss13 thus whether or not nuke ops are streamlined it's still a damn good idea to not let users under a month old (or a better solution, less than x rounds played) roll nuke op and be 'that guy' that fumbles around and orders one of the many worthless things the uplink is bloated with that they have no clue what to do with.

[TechnoAlchemist]

whitelists are stupid and so is paprika

[lzimann]

there's a lot of older players that do "rookie mistakes", shit happens and you can't expect to win every single round you play as nuke ops.

[Super Aggro Crag]

whitelists are stupid and so is paprika

[ShadowDimentio]

>Paprika thinks whitelisting is a good idea
>Paprika thinks you don't learn through gameplay

Yet another "Paprika you're dumb and wrong go away" moment

Personal example: I used to hate nops because they were so often flukes, so I disabled getting put in as one. I eventually cut it back on because I wanted to see the fancy toys they had, and in my first round back I was hesitant and got put in as just the guy guarding the power sink. I didn't achieve much but I helped some and we ended up winning, and in the process grew more confident and knowledgeable.

Second round I was more confident and I geared up on strike gear. I proceeded to be the MVP and win the round by swatting the cap in the heart of security and escaping before sec dunked me.

[Zilenan91]

You don't learn things until you try them. My first ops round was on Hippie and the only thing I did was run around and murderbone for 30 minutes until the shuttle arrived. I didn't really do much else.

[TankNut]

Why would you bother whitelisting nukeops when teaching new people is half the fun? Hell, I've played with some guys who actually had great ideas and arguably won us the round.

[Jacough]

needs to have like a 3+ month wait period

Yeah because you're totally going to be a pro after three or more months without even touching the role.

[Takeguru]

You should know enough at that point that you aren't a complete burden to the team

The biggest issue with ops is when they forget to suicide/succumb when they get detained/critted

[Bolien]

whitelists are stupid and so is paprika

[lumipharon]

Only thing nukeops (and all team antags) need is a reasonable minimum play time before they can opt in.
Sure, it won't stop retards from fucking it up, but it will stop literally new players from doing it.

[paprika]

Only thing nukeops (and all team antags) need is a reasonable minimum play time before they can opt in.
Sure, it won't stop retards from fucking it up, but it will stop literally new players from doing it.

This is literally what I suggested in my post before people started screaming that I wanted whitelists

What the fuck is wrong with this community

[Incoming]

Only thing nukeops (and all team antags) need is a reasonable minimum play time before they can opt in.
Sure, it won't stop retards from fucking it up, but it will stop literally new players from doing it.

We already have this

[lumipharon]

Only thing nukeops (and all team antags) need is a reasonable minimum play time before they can opt in.
Sure, it won't stop retards from fucking it up, but it will stop literally new players from doing it.

We already have this

Oh right, that happened.

[Steelpoint]

The problem with Ops is a combination of people who simply lack any real sense of combat experience, experience that can be acquired from time played on the server and other antag roles such as Traitor, and lack of communication and team play.

Nuke Ops is all about the Ops working togther to achieve a goal, while its theoretically possible for a single Op to accomplish his objective, but that usually entails said Op going "stealth" meme's or if the crew's half dead already.

I've seen Ops who literally just fuck off once the shuttle docks and go do whatever and then die to no one.

Whitelisting Ops would help since it'll at least ensure you'll have competent players as Ops, but it'll never happen since the word 'whitelist' is almost akin to blasphemy.

[Cik]

nuclear operative is a specialized skillset that can really only be developed by playing nuclear operative.

they have tons of equipment that your average newbie will simply never use; projectile weapons, magazines, exotic grenades, heavy weapons, jetpacks, complicated hardsuits etc.

they also have to work as a team which many players are simply not used to.

the only way to get better is to play. reading the wiki isn't going to do shit for your ability to work in a fireteam, at best it will teach you the basics like "how do i use a jetpack" which is only 20% of the difficulty, tops.

[ShadowDimentio]

Lets be real here

Any application for this would have to be laughably low-effort or nobody would fucking bother

And if it's such a low bar why even have it

[onleavedontatme]

http://www.ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/latest_stats ... _emergency

Ops already win the majority of the time though.

[Steelpoint]

Except if you look at the stats more closely you'll see Ops win almost guaranteed 100% on lower populations. Also the overall win stat does not account for antag half wins.

In fact, if you place Nuke Op half wins alongside wins you'll see Ops technically win around 75% of the time!

------

20 to 40 people Ops have near virtually a 100% win rate (a antag halfwin is still a win imo).

On 40 to 49 people the win rates about 85% (accounting for antag halfwin).

Only on about 50 to 59 people do the rounds have about a 50% win rate

------

Statistically it seems Op win most of the time outside of extreme high pop.

[iamgoofball]

I'd like to derail this thread for a moment

You're all wrong.

The reason is that people learn in 3 different ways:

Visual, Auditory, and Kinesthetic.

Visual learners learn by researching shit. Give 'em a guide on how to play nuke ops and they'll learn all they need to know from that guide. However, they'll need that guide to learn it well, and won't function as well if they get thrown into the role/are trying to fight against people, or someone's yelling at them "DO THIS NOT THAT".

Auditory learners learn by having someone lecture to them/walk them through the process. Give 'em a good mentor who can tell them "get dat fukken disk" and point them in the direction of the condom dispensary, and they'll be operating like a j_mad that we know is him. They aren't going to function as well if they try to read a guide and do it solo, or if they just get thrown into it no prep time.

Kinesthetic learners learn by doing the task they want to learn. Throw them into the role and they'll be putting bullets in the heads of staff in no time. They aren't going to function as well if they try to read a guide, or someone tries to yell at them "CONDOM IS THAT WAY DO AS I SAY".

Disabling 2 of those 3 in favor of just one isolates players, and prevents a large majority of people from learning how to do ops. It seems like this suggestion is not to "help players learn", but to create a circle of friends who are the only ones who can play nuke ops and decide who stays/goes. This is a horrible horrible thing and you should feel bad for disguising this thinly veiled attempt to make a circlejerk out of a core SS13 gamemode.

[Steelpoint]

I've always been interested in the idea of making a sort of offline tutorial for certain antagonist roles.

The idea being you get a narrator to walk through a basic guide and a basic controlled scenario for a higher level antagonists, to introduce them to the basics of their role, including equipment, economy, as well as threat assessment and how to achieve their objectives.

It would be a lot of work and likely impossible but it would be a big boon to helping newer players to get used to a role BEFORE playing the role in a multiplayer online environment.

It would also be very hands off, since you would not need admins/mentors to be on hand all the time.

[Davidchan]

Personally I think a lot of nuke flop low pop vics would be prevented if the disk spawned on the bridge instead of the caps office. I've seen lots of flukes win because the acive staff never had a chance to get into the office before flops showed up and emagged their way in.

As for white listing ops? Fuck no. Maaaaybe make the Commander a separate role and white list that, since lots of rounds can make or break on whether or not the commander has their shit together, but whitelisting the entire mode is fucking stupid. Most nuke failures I've seen is a general lack of teamwork, people doing their own thing and often buying their gear without consulting each other first.

[Cherrypone]

I'd like to derail this thread for a moment

You're all wrong.

The reason is that people learn in 3 different ways:

Visual, Auditory, and Kinesthetic.

Visual learners learn by researching shit. Give 'em a guide on how to play nuke ops and they'll learn all they need to know from that guide. However, they'll need that guide to learn it well, and won't function as well if they get thrown into the role/are trying to fight against people, or someone's yelling at them "DO THIS NOT THAT".

Auditory learners learn by having someone lecture to them/walk them through the process. Give 'em a good mentor who can tell them "get dat fukken disk" and point them in the direction of the condom dispensary, and they'll be operating like a j_mad that we know is him. They aren't going to function as well if they try to read a guide and do it solo, or if they just get thrown into it no prep time.

Kinesthetic learners learn by doing the task they want to learn. Throw them into the role and they'll be putting bullets in the heads of staff in no time. They aren't going to function as well if they try to read a guide, or someone tries to yell at them "CONDOM IS THAT WAY DO AS I SAY".

Disabling 2 of those 3 in favor of just one isolates players, and prevents a large majority of people from learning how to do ops. It seems like this suggestion is not to "help players learn", but to create a circle of friends who are the only ones who can play nuke ops and decide who stays/goes. This is a horrible horrible thing and you should feel bad for disguising this thinly veiled attempt to make a circlejerk out of a core SS13 gamemode.

Never thought I'd say this about goof of all people, but this is pretty much the best post in this thread at the moment.

[kevinz000]

whitelists are stupid and so is paprika

[paprika]

whitelists are stupid and so is paprika

I literally never said I wanted whitelists, this quote chain is full of people who can't fucking read

[Anonmare]

I have genuinely never seen OPs lose except due to their own incompetence.

[firecage]

Whitelisting anything is a bad idea. If someone is really that bad, we already have a solution for said person, blacklisting.

[Steelpoint]

I'm actually surprised at how rarely Ops seem to lose.

Though its the reason why I dislike Op rounds as security, outside of the Ops fluking hard the Ops are otherwise near guaranteed to win.

[ShadowDimentio]

That's probably because Security are just completely outpaced by ops in every way. Ops have better armor, gear, and the element of surprise. The only time things are vaguely even is when war is called and the crew can get ready for shit to go down.

Idea: What if the ops got declared when they first arrive at the station z-level? Shit man, actually I'm making a new thread for this.

[Takeguru]

Some kind of alarm when an un-authorized ship comes within the Z?

The white ship would have to do it too.

[oranges]

The answer is to make a team v team nukeops vs ERT respawn enabled ticket counter gamemode so everyone can learn how to fight

[Xhuis]

The answer is to make a team v team nukeops vs ERT respawn enabled ticket counter gamemode so everyone can learn how to fight

We already have that! CTF is good for this kind of thing when admins are up for it.

[lzimann]

The answer is to make a team v team nukeops vs ERT respawn enabled ticket counter gamemode so everyone can learn how to fight

We already have that! CTF is good for this kind of thing when admins are up for it.

i made it to activate with a single button press(and then shadow made notifications for ghosts), so all people need to do is ask for it.