Map and RGN round type rotation
- srifenbyxp
- Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 4:49 am
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- Location: UK
Map and RGN round type rotation
Probably beating a dead horse with a stick but the search bar turned up empty. Ideally I wanted to see if anyone would also approve of this, and if within the realm of probability of actually implementing it. Main topics are followed:
1. Map change rotations
Roundly / Daily / weekly
I know we got box and meta but I’ve played on a few other maps on /tg/ besides these two. IIRC the other maps are: Efficiency, Asteroid, Mini. I also heard that Jungle station was up at one point but was quickly shut down. I’m assuming roundly would a no because everybody would have to wait that extra couple of minutes to play spessman on top of the 2 minute wait time. Daily or weekly mayhaps at low pop time which my glorious EST is around 2-6am. I’m not sure how the actual map process goes and I’m assuming it needs to be manually changed rather than RNG like round types. I’d like to see more frequent map changes rather than anything else.
2. Round type rotation rate
Nothing much to say, I’d just like to see more Revs/Wizards/Gangsters.
1. Map change rotations
Roundly / Daily / weekly
I know we got box and meta but I’ve played on a few other maps on /tg/ besides these two. IIRC the other maps are: Efficiency, Asteroid, Mini. I also heard that Jungle station was up at one point but was quickly shut down. I’m assuming roundly would a no because everybody would have to wait that extra couple of minutes to play spessman on top of the 2 minute wait time. Daily or weekly mayhaps at low pop time which my glorious EST is around 2-6am. I’m not sure how the actual map process goes and I’m assuming it needs to be manually changed rather than RNG like round types. I’d like to see more frequent map changes rather than anything else.
2. Round type rotation rate
Nothing much to say, I’d just like to see more Revs/Wizards/Gangsters.
To be robust is not about combat prowess, it is the state of readiness for the situation at hand.
- fleure
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:50 pm
- Byond Username: Fleure
Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
I'm all for it, I like variety, but as usual I'm sure it'll just be >muh box
Ex-/tg/station maintainer for being a lazy shit.
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
Would it be possible to use a pseudo random distribution where the chance increases to play a mode the less it is played?
Sort of like how dota status chance effects work, the number is actually lower than displayed to start with but rises each time it doesn't happen and resets back down to the base number once it does.
Sort of like how dota status chance effects work, the number is actually lower than displayed to start with but rises each time it doesn't happen and resets back down to the base number once it does.
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- Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:21 pm
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
I voted yea to map rotation, but not to round type rotation rate. I like that it's random curently, and sometimes it's just hilarious when there's 3 revolution rounds in a row.
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
box now, box forever
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- MisterPerson
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
The round type stuff is all config options that we have no control over.
Your map idea is possible if you don't mind the 2 minute wait as you said. If it happened at an upopular hour (or at least when Basil isn't also doing it), I don't think people would mind too much.
Of course that doesn't mean people necessarily actually WANT different maps.
Your map idea is possible if you don't mind the 2 minute wait as you said. If it happened at an upopular hour (or at least when Basil isn't also doing it), I don't think people would mind too much.
Of course that doesn't mean people necessarily actually WANT different maps.
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Feedback is dumb and it doesn't matter
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
The people who don't want to play a different map, even just some of the time, have literally no compelling argument against playing Asteroid Station half the time or something.
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
Other than simply not wanting to play on another map, you mean. Just because you don't favor an argument doesn't make it less meaningful to those players that hold it. There are large numbers of players that simply don't want to play on other maps. I'm not really sure what you're expecting as a "compelling argument" to that effect.QuartzCrystal wrote:The people who don't want to play a different map, even just some of the time, have literally no compelling argument against playing Asteroid Station half the time or something.
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- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:05 pm
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
The problem with map rotation is that it would require consistent map updates. As far as i know, the coders/spriters are having trouble finding people to keep these maps up-to-date with all the changes/updates that happen on /tg/. If the map makers believe they can maintain all these maps, then im all for having a weekly/monthly rotation of popular maps(except ministation, that thing is too small to have on the main server).
- paprika
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
How about "map knowledge is like 50% of being robust in ss13"?QuartzCrystal wrote:The people who don't want to play a different map, even just some of the time, have literally no compelling argument against playing Asteroid Station half the time or something.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
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- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:59 pm
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
If we would reserve Sybil for BoxStation and Badger for a map rotation, then yes.
- fleure
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:50 pm
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
Map knowledge is important in any multiplayer game. But I just don't understand hostility to any variety in maps at all. You wouldn't play counter strike and only ever play de_dust 2, or q3dm6 in Quake, even though both are excellent maps. Different maps offer different dynamics in the game.paprika wrote:How about "map knowledge is like 50% of being robust in ss13"?QuartzCrystal wrote:The people who don't want to play a different map, even just some of the time, have literally no compelling argument against playing Asteroid Station half the time or something.
Sure you'll have no idea where anything is when you start off playing a map you're not familiar with, but I'm sure players' egos can take a few rounds of being unrobust.
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- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
Instead of knowing exactly what I'm going in my fate will be decided by a bunch of people who play 2D spessmen?
Nah
Nah
- ExplosiveCrate
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:04 pm
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
Seems most people who don't like other maps don't want to go through the trouble of learning a new map because it would make them "unrobust".
i dont even know what the context for my signature was
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
I'm not sure why the tone in this thread is "State reasons why this shouldn't happen or we default to it should." The status quo rests with not making this rather drastic change. So I want to hear it. What is the argument for actually adding a map rotation to a server whose population reached this point without it?
Are we supposed to inflict the New Game Experience™ on players every round or something? In fact, lets imagine this from a new player perspective. If our map is changing constantly, that new player will have no fucking clue where they're meant to go or do to find even basic shit without spending a senseless amount of time wandering around just to have to come back and do it again when the map changes.
As has been stated, if you really want this desperately to play on a map that isn't Boxstation, then I suggest you find a team of mappers and map coders and set up a server with that other map. Taking an established server with an established map norm and deciding that because you want to play on other maps and you want to play with a high population (assuming the population will stick around after the map changes away from the norm) that the map should change is really shitty.
Are we supposed to inflict the New Game Experience™ on players every round or something? In fact, lets imagine this from a new player perspective. If our map is changing constantly, that new player will have no fucking clue where they're meant to go or do to find even basic shit without spending a senseless amount of time wandering around just to have to come back and do it again when the map changes.
As has been stated, if you really want this desperately to play on a map that isn't Boxstation, then I suggest you find a team of mappers and map coders and set up a server with that other map. Taking an established server with an established map norm and deciding that because you want to play on other maps and you want to play with a high population (assuming the population will stick around after the map changes away from the norm) that the map should change is really shitty.
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
-FamiliarityViolaceus wrote:Yes, people will obviously forget everything about map when round ends.If our map is changing
constantly, that new player will have
no fucking clue where they're meant
to go or do to find even basic shit
without spending a senseless
amount of time wandering around
just to have to come back and do it
again when the map changes.
New maps provide:
- freshness
- other opportunities
- other 'feel'
I don't undersant people who want to stick with box for life.
-A sense of "ownership" in their departments. You've used the same room or office for a while so you gain a sort of personal attachment to it.
Not everyone wants to feel like a migrant worker pushed from map to map.
Also your first line there doesn't make sense. If a new player starts learning the layout of the station on Map A, nothing they learned about map layouts or where to find things will translate over to Map B. They'll have to start from scratch.
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
We've had quite a jump of new players in the last couple of months. Even considering them as their own case, SS13 already has a steep learning curve. Forcing even more of that onto those new players just because is shitty.Violaceus wrote:And this is a minor issue because they will learn it anyway. And there are maps on wiki. And there is not so much new players.
If you want to have "other experiences" play on other servers with other maps. Don't inflict a new map on an already established server and playerbase and drag them along for the ride. I'd be fine with Badger running whatever alternate map it wants to have, but I'm still not seeing the argument for forcibly moving an established server with a maintained and actively updated map code group to X other random maps at intervals just for the sake of being different.
- fleure
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:50 pm
- Byond Username: Fleure
Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
You're begging the question here. The whole point of this thread is to gauge interest and discuss the idea.cedarbridge wrote:Don't inflict a new map on an already established server and playerbase and drag them along for the ride.
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
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Last edited by Intigracy on Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
And as been stated before, forum threads and polls are rarely a real snapshot of the playerbase because many more people play on the server without even looking at the forum than the other way around. What's been said here is true though. Setting the server to rotate maps or changing the map will just result in a loss in overall server population. But at least its ~different~ right?fleure wrote:You're begging the question here. The whole point of this thread is to gauge interest and discuss the idea.cedarbridge wrote:Don't inflict a new map on an already established server and playerbase and drag them along for the ride.
- fleure
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:50 pm
- Byond Username: Fleure
Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
cedarbridge wrote:And as been stated before, forum threads and polls are rarely a real snapshot of the playerbase because many more people play on the server without even looking at the forum than the other way around.
ヽ(*・ω・)ノcedarbridge wrote:What's been said here is true though.
Assuming you're correct, I think we're stuck at a catch-22, then - Box's size is quickly becoming unsuitable for the numbers of players Sibyl attracts, but they will leave if we change to a bigger map.cedarbridge wrote:Setting the server to rotate maps or changing the map will just result in a loss in overall server population. But at least its ~different~ right?
You're also again assuming maintaining or growing the server population is the primary goal of map choice. If we agree to that assumption, the direction of the game is at the tyranny of the majority. If the decision is made here based on poll results, the game is run by a small forum circlejerk. Still, I'd rather not alienat an actual majority of the server.
>muh box
Ex-/tg/station maintainer for being a lazy shit.
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
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Last edited by Intigracy on Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- srifenbyxp
- Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 4:49 am
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- Location: UK
[POLL]Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
Why not leave Sybil box for life and badger for map rotation? Then you only have to worry about one instead of two
To be robust is not about combat prowess, it is the state of readiness for the situation at hand.
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about the population itself being the end to which we should look when deciding. I'm telling you that the change WILL drive people off the server. For no explained reason other than "variety." So yes, you'd be alienating people in general by making this change. There's a reason its been brought up so many times and rejected each time. Quoting me without making an argument is pretty cute though.fleure wrote:You're also again assuming maintaining or growing the server population is the primary goal of map choice. If we agree to that assumption, the direction of the game is at the tyranny of the majority. If the decision is made here based on poll results, the game is run by a small forum circlejerk. Still, I'd rather not alienat an actual majority of the server.
You've still yet to explain who is going to maintain those "other" maps. Metastation has no maintainer and most of our branch only maintains Box. Maps need updates and need to be kept abreast of code updates and standards changes. If nobody does it then there will be even more desynch between player expectation and results as well as disconnect between the features and the on-server implementation. I don't think you really get that this isn't as easy as you're making it out to be.
paprika wrote:Once again, box should be on badger because of maintainability and population issues, not preferential opinionated 'i like this map better!' shit.
It's a pain in the fucking ass to do big overhauls to the map and then have to do it AGAIN because metacide isn't around and we have no active map maintainer for metastation. I'd maintain metastation myself, but like most coders, I'd rather make an entirely new map and scrap metastation entirely, simply using metastation as a source for copy+paste because people like metastation AS IT IS NOW. I felt uncomfortable making edits to metastation on NT's code because of this, it felt weird and stupid because I'd rather maintain a map like box that everyone edits that isn't so personally tied to metacide. I'd feel bad if I was metacide and people messed with my map, and I know he probably doesn't feel that way, but that's just how it is.
Until metacide comes back, we should switch to box. Period. There's no real argument against it other than 'well the 20ish people who play badger prefer it!' which is a fucking retarded argument when the 100+ people who play sybil are having bigger issues with population and shit. If you really, REALLY like metastation, track metacide down and see if he'll put the effort in to rig it back up for server 2 and make more frequent updates.
Box is /tg/ station's development map. Coders who make changes should not have to be forced to edit metastation as well, that should be the responsibility of the person who made the alternate server 2 map. METACIDE WAS PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH THIS AGREEMENT. He does most of not all the metastation updates, coders let him do whatever the fuck he wants to it. Now that metacide is not present, we go back to box until he shows up again. It will both a) boost the population and b) increase the amount of people who like metastation.
Think about it like this: Server 2 goes box. More and more people play there. People grow used to playing on server 2 as their home server and regular on it more. Metacide comes back or we get a new map for server 2 like efficiency or something with an active map maintainer, and people on server 2 get used to it because while it's not box they don't want to leave server 2 and enjoy giving the map maintainer feedback most of the time towards the development of the map. This is how server 2 and metastation got started in the first place, this is why people like metastation, etc. Map knowledge is a VERY large part of ss13 too.
- fleure
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:50 pm
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
So why bring it up? I could only infer it's an important factor to keeping Box on.cedarbridge wrote: You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about the population itself being the end to which we should look when deciding.
You're right, and it's not something I considered at all, mostly because I'm so used to Meta or NT always being around to work on it. There is no solution to that problem aside from someone being enthusiastic enough to maintian it, but paprika is right, it's probably not going to happen.cedarbridge wrote:You've still yet to explain who is going to maintain those "other" maps. Metastation has no maintainer and most of our branch only maintains Box.
Ex-/tg/station maintainer for being a lazy shit.
- phil235
- Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:39 am
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
I'm all for keeping box on Sybil and having map rotation on badger.
I'm a tgstation coding maintainer janitor
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
Try reading the rest of that line instead of stopping where you quoted. That might help.fleure wrote:So why bring it up? I could only infer it's an important factor to keeping Box on.cedarbridge wrote: You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about the population itself being the end to which we should look when deciding.
- Wyzack
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
I think that forcing boxstation on badger to alleviate sybil's population issues is horseshit, and completely disregards the people who play badger only, like myself. Our population has been rising when we got asteroid station, and using us to contain your sybil overflow is a poor solution for anyone but sybil players, as there tends to be very different playstyles between the two
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- cedarbridge
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
You were on Sybil last night you nerd.Wyzack wrote:I think that forcing boxstation on badger to alleviate sybil's population issues is horseshit, and completely disregards the people who play badger only, like myself. Our population has been rising when we got asteroid station, and using us to contain your sybil overflow is a poor solution for anyone but sybil players, as there tends to be very different playstyles between the two
- Wyzack
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Re: Map and RGN round type rotation
Wat? I play sybil occasionally, usually when badger is down, but i am 100% sure i did not go there last night. Sibyl is more fast paced and at times more griefy, and occasionally that is the kind of fun i want to have. The two servers are distinct, neither is objectively better and i really hope it stays that way.
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tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
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