Default Lethal Weapons for Security

[AnonymousNow]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Sounds like a negative outlook on your part

Security is not a secondary antagonist

It's a negative outlook formed and reinforced over about five years.

Every round, I have to try and make sure security doesn't randomly fuck me over for no raisins, no matter what my role is. I do not always succeed.

[MisterPerson]

Conflict is fun

[AnonymousNow]

Conflict is fun

Conflict is fun, but not consistently against a peacekeeping force that's supposed to be on your side when there's other threats out there.

[Takeguru]

Conflict is !!fun!!

But yes, there are times security does mind boggling things for no reason.

Like the occasional sci raids to shut down toxins when there's been no antagonistic activity from anyone even remotely connected to sci

[AnonymousNow]

Conflict is !!fun!!

But yes, there are times security does mind boggling things for no reason.

Like the occasional sci raids to shut down toxins when there's been no antagonistic activity from anyone even remotely connected to sci

Oh man, I hate that. Problem is, people don't realise bombs have an IC reason to exist - blast mining.

[Takeguru]

I actually managed to get bombs for mining once.

This was before fastmos, so I don't know how it works now, but I'd actually just prefer they give me a diamond drill or a Ripley.

Bombs are kind of shit at one of the few non-antag roles they have

[Scones]

"i-its for mining!!!!"

what a crock of shit i have nearly 5k connections and i've seen bombs in mining given from science ONCE

ONCE

bombs leave toxins without a good reason -> into the trash you go

[Tornadium]

Conflict is fun

Conflict is fun, but not consistently against a peacekeeping force that's supposed to be on your side when there's other threats out there.

Oh please,

What do you expect when people inconvenience them at every possible opportunity?

Officer slips? Better grab his shit asap and run around for 30 minutes with it.

[AnonymousNow]

"i-its for mining!!!!"

what a crock of shit i have nearly 5k connections and i've seen bombs in mining given from science ONCE

ONCE

bombs leave toxins without a good reason -> into the trash you go

Oh please,

What do you expect when people inconvenience them at every possible opportunity?

Officer slips? Better grab his shit asap and run around for 30 minutes with it.

These are both examples of Chicken-And-Egg problems.

Do people not make mining charges because people don't know that they're supposed to be used for mining? Or do people not make mining charges because people don't already use them for mining charges?

And which came first - shitty sec behaviour, or negative behaviour towards sec?

[Takeguru]

It's a lasting consequence of antag sec.

I still find it hard to trust an officer, because I still feel like they'll try to kill me given the chance

Plus, with changelings still existing and the relative ease that you can convert an officer into a gang, my wariness isn't abated.

[Steelpoint]

I've yet to see bombs be given to miners ever.

I always take a mental note down of whoever is manning Toxins, and the moment they step out, or I see them out of, toxins I search them.

Amusingly most of my deaths by suicide bombs come from that.

[Zilenan91]

A pretty huge side effect of what buffing lasers would do is completely destroy blob mode. Even more.

Basically, fuck blobs. We got emitter boards ready to merge because fuck blobs, we may have incredibly buffed lasers because fuck blobs, and we have blob cores that are not bomb immune and can be one shot with no way to defend themselves against bombs, because fuck blobs. These are problems that are probably not going to be fixed, and blob will continue to be a pointless mode until bombs no longer one shot it.

[Malkevin]

Conflict is fun

Conflict is fun, but not consistently against a peacekeeping force that's supposed to be on your side when there's other threats out there.

Security isn't on your side, they're on the company's side

[oranges]

the red tide is out in full force

remove remove remove remove

[Tornadium]

These are both examples of Chicken-And-Egg problems.

Do people not make mining charges because people don't know that they're supposed to be used for mining? Or do people not make mining charges because people don't already use them for mining charges?

And which came first - shitty sec behaviour, or negative behaviour towards sec?

It's not really chicken and egg to be completely honest.

You are going out of your way to fuck with security, you are protected by rules.

If Security goes out of their way to fuck with you they get banned because they are shit on by the current ruleset (Admittedly it's getting better). Stripping a sec officer the second he's down without him doing anything to provoke you is quite clearly going to make security want to toss you out an airlock for being a dick.

[Cheimon]

People don't make mining charges because they're not necessary for mining. In fact, given they straight up destroy a bunch of stuff (including the floor), they're probably less than helpful.

[Malkevin]

They shouldn't be destroying asteroid turfs.

They should just be causing the sand to get dug up, I'm pretty ore even got made bombproof.

If thats not happening then someone fucked up somewhere.

[Zilenan91]

They shouldn't be destroying asteroid turfs.

They should just be causing the sand to get dug up, I'm pretty ore even got made bombproof.

If thats not happening then someone fucked up somewhere.

I do think Ore gets blown up and disintegrated by Gibtonite, so that might've been changed. Atleast with this you could make a really shitty argument that Toxins actually has a point. Sand is dug up though, and the floor is always there, so I dunno, I've never tested it with maxcaps.

[Malkevin]

Fun story: The first and last time I used bombs for mining was the same round I discovered the fact that hot bombs detonate instantly.

[Tornadium]

Bump

Played a few rounds as Sec on Bay.

I fucking love their armory and the weapon choices.

[Steelpoint]

I'm half tempted to look at doing what Bay does for more lethal weaponry.

Essentially there's a high risk area that holds equipment meant for when shit hits the fan, mostly there's three unique weapons that sec has access to that are quite lethal. They have...

Mark 58 Pistol: A powerful sidearm with a wide range of ammunition allowing for lethal and non-lethal options, uses .45 calibre bullets.

WT-550 Automatic Rifle: 9mm Rifle that deals good damage and is good for sustained and reliable damage down range, also has access to non-lethal ammo.

Z8 Bulldog: Our version of the Syndicate Bulldog, this one deals immense damage to anything it hit and even uses anti-armour rounds, its also very rare.

Might be a interesting addition either way.

[Steelpoint]

I did a quick test and added a basic Mark88 Pistol to the game as a test.

It holds eight rounds and be default is loaded with special stun rounds, these rounds deals 5 brute damage per shot but deal 35 stamina damage per shot, stunning targets in three rounds. It also has a lethal alternative holding .45 rounds that deal a default of 25 damage per rounds.

So its feasible, but do we want to throw these new toys in?

E: I can go into detail on how I think the three Bay weapons could fit in but I'll leave that for if we want to go ahead.

[Tornadium]

I did a quick test and added a basic Mark88 Pistol to the game as a test.

It holds eight rounds and be default is loaded with special stun rounds, these rounds deals 5 brute damage per shot but deal 35 stamina damage per shot, stunning targets in three rounds. It also has a lethal alternative holding .45 rounds that deal a default of 25 damage per rounds.

So its feasible, but do we want to throw these new toys in?

E: I can go into detail on how I think the three Bay weapons could fit in but I'll leave that for if we want to go ahead.

I'd like to try it,

Even in a "Only for when shit hits the fan" capacity.

Letting officers choose between a taser and a Mark88 as a round start weapon option would be nice too.

You have the trade off between recharge capability and the extra mag space and reload capability.

[Cheimon]

Stamina bullets just sounds like a harmful and therefore inferior version of the disabler. And since you can fire 20 disabler shots compared to 8 bullets, it's even worse.

4-hit-crit bullets might be useful though.

[Tornadium]

Stamina bullets just sounds like a harmful and therefore inferior version of the disabler. And since you can fire 20 disabler shots compared to 8 bullets, it's even worse.

4-hit-crit bullets might be useful though.

Wouldn't the non-lethals function in the same way as the detective revolver and knock them over?

[Steelpoint]

Right now I have the Mark88 Stun rounds stun a target after three bullets, I can lower that to one round however in retrospect.

Or I can get rid of the stun bullets altogther and keep the Mark88 using .45 lethal bullets (25 to 30+ damage).

So the difference between the Mark88 and a Taser is that the Mark88 has a larger ammo capacity (by 3 rounds) and can go through energy swords, but the disadvantage is that it needs physical ammo to reload, whereas the Taser can be reliably recharged. Meaning the Mark88 has to rely on the limited ammo stock in the armoury or in cargo.

I could get rid of the Stun bullets damage just to clear up any Silicon annoyances as well.

If my competence is high enough (doubtful but I did get the ERT to work so eh) I might look at making a officer have to chose between a Taser or Mark88 at round start.

I doubt that will work so otherwise I'll put them in the armoury or replace the Taser with the Mark 88 depending on what we all think is best (if we even want new lethal weapons for Sec).

----

To expand my thoughts I think the Mark 88 should either be standard issue for Officers or kept as standard issue high alert equipment in the armoury. The WT-550 Rifle could be the less common high risk weapon in the armoury (only one or two) alongside the Bulldog.

[Steelpoint]

Well the options are as follows:

Option 1: Do nothing

Option 2: Replace the Taser with the Mark 88 as standard issue for Security Officers. Security Officers get several non-lethal magazines with additional mags in the armoury. Lethal .45 mags are kept in the armoury for emergency situations.

Option 3: Taser remains standard issue, Mark 88s spawns in the armoury as a emergency option alongside other new sec lethal weapons.

[Tornadium]

Well the options are as follows:

Option 1: Do nothing

Option 2: Replace the Taser with the Mark 88 as standard issue for Security Officers. Security Officers get several non-lethal magazines with additional mags in the armoury. Lethal .45 mags are kept in the armoury for emergency situations.

Option 3: Taser remains standard issue, Mark 88s spawns in the armoury as a emergency option alongside other new sec lethal weapons.

I like Option 2.

[Steelpoint]

I can tell removing Tasers as standard issue will be controversial.

One advantage of doing that however is that it might encourage Officers to avoid using their firearm on anything, or even have them use other equipment such as Stun Batons or Pepper Spray to conserve their ammo.

[Tornadium]

I can tell removing Tasers as standard issue will be controversial.

One advantage of doing that however is that it might encourage Officers to avoid using their firearm on anything, or even have them use other equipment such as Stun Batons or Pepper Spray to conserve their ammo.

Is there a way to randomize the starting equipment choice?

Like one round Sec will spawn with a certain set of equipment?

[Steelpoint]

Individually its easy, as a group I don't think that's doable, or at least not within my level of knowledge.

[Tornadium]

Individually its easy, as a group I don't think that's doable, or at least not within my level of knowledge.

I assume there is some kind of role list?

Can we not have something like

- Security Officer
- Mercenary Personel
- Space Police

(name suck but whatever)

And every round randomize which one gets added to the role list and they all spawn with different equipment?

[Zilenan91]

I can tell removing Tasers as standard issue will be controversial.

One advantage of doing that however is that it might encourage Officers to avoid using their firearm on anything, or even have them use other equipment such as Stun Batons or Pepper Spray to conserve their ammo.

I REALLY like the idea of removing tasers tbh, or atleast just making it so the only tasers are the ones that spawn in the armory, they're honestly just not good for the game as a whole. If we were to go with the stamina damage non-lethals, I say it would have to be a 2 shot or 3 shot knockdown. Though as I said earlier, the armor values of many items in the game would need their bullet resistance raised to compensate, because as it stands right now, armor is balanced around having higher laser resistance and lower ballistic resistance due to their scarcity, and also buffing the combat eshield to have a much higher bullet block chance because Ops would get destroyed by the pistol.

A way for officers to get these pistols at round start could be either replacing them with tasers in their suit storage slot if we decide to remove tasers, or removing tasers out of round start sec officers and instead putting 1 pistol in their lockers for them.

Also if I have to ask, are the nonlethal bullets for the pistol a special type of ammo or is it like switching modes on an egun.

Another side effect of removing tasers and replacing them with these would be a gradual shift into moving away from stun combat, which I think everyone is for.

[Steelpoint]

Man I typed out a long reply only for me to lose it.

In short. Mk58 has 10 rounds and deals stun damage, ammo is limited to 20 rounds in total (gun + 1 extra mag). Lethal ammo is in a high-risk area of the armoury which will be a new segregation. Big problem is that there's no stamina defence in game meaning a Op will be stunned as fast as a Assistant, need to investigate this.

[Steelpoint]

Did some testing, current stun bullet is essentially a ballistic stun round (no stamina damage).

Against a Op it still one shot stuns as a normal taser will, using a energy shield however is a 50/50 toss up on if it blocks the projectile.

[Tornadium]

Did some testing, current stun bullet is essentially a ballistic stun round (no stamina damage).

Against a Op it still one shot stuns as a normal taser will, using a energy shield however is a 50/50 toss up on if it blocks the projectile.

Much better than a 100% block rate.

[Zilenan91]

So it's essentially a det revolver. Perhaps it should be changed to stam damage instead of stun.

Also another thing I forgot to add, it will probably be a bad idea to give sec a bulldog, and if you wanted to implement the automatic rifle, perhaps making it so there's only one would be the way to go. Also making there be 2 spare clips of lethal ammo in every sec locker would be nice, because sec needs more ways to kill people (one in the pistol, one spare) as well as 2 nonlethal clips with a bunch more in the armory/sectech vendor.

[Steelpoint]

I was thinking of either making the Bulldog or the Auto Rifle either a HoS only item and/or a rare one/two item in the armoury.

Prehaps making the Bulldog a semi-auto shotgun upgrade over the standard Riot Shotguns in the armoury while having the auto rifle as something for the HoS/Warden/Whatever.

I'm not even set on what to do with the other two weapons so suggestions are great.

[Zilenan91]

I was thinking of either making the Bulldog or the Auto Rifle either a HoS only item and/or a rare one/two item in the armoury.

Prehaps making the Bulldog a semi-auto shotgun upgrade over the standard Riot Shotguns in the armoury while having the auto rifle as something for the HoS/Warden/Whatever.

I'm not even set on what to do with the other two weapons so suggestions are great.

Pistols should be given to all of security and are mostly fine with their stechkin 2.0 status, but giving sec easy access to upgraded revolvers is a bad idea, the reason it being okay on Bay being because of its RP level, here it would just get abused. I could see the Auto Rifle being warden specific though, the warden needs some toys what with it being a unique role. What are the stats on the auto rifle anyways? Is it basically a C20-R?

[Steelpoint]

Bay specific stats don't translate 1:1 to /tg/ considering how their health system is significantly different.

However the rifle is essentially described as a outdated personal defence weapon that uses pistol based 9mm rounds. It has a P90 style magazine with 20 rounds per mag.

The default 9mm rounds deal 20 damage per bullet, it also has alternative rubber bullets that cause some damage and a lot of pain.

[Zilenan91]

Bay specific stats don't translate 1:1 to /tg/ considering how their health system is significantly different.

However the rifle is essentially described as a outdated personal defence weapon that uses pistol based 9mm rounds. It has a P90 style magazine with 20 rounds per mag.

The default 9mm rounds deal 20 damage per bullet, it also has alternative rubber bullets that cause some damage and a lot of pain.

So it's a C20-R in /tg/ terms. Yeah, that sounds fine as a one of if it doesn't stun/knockdown while with lethal rounds. My guess is the nonlethal rounds would do about 30-35 stamina with minor brute damage (5 or 10, like the det revolver).

[Steelpoint]

Yeah it would essentially be a C20r without the ability to knock people down, or at least take three or four bullets to stamina damage someone.

Edit: Here are the images for the three guns.

Security Pistol


Security Auto Rifle


Security Shotgun/Carbine

[Zilenan91]

Yeah it would essentially be a C20r without the ability to knock people down, or at least take three or four bullets to stamina damage someone.

Edit: Here are the images for the three guns.

Security Pistol


Security Auto Rifle


Security Shotgun/Carbine

Those sprites are sexy
I can also see the Half Life 2 influence in them, the designs are really similar and I feel they fit the security aesthetic really nicely.

[Steelpoint]

I'm half tempted to make the Security Shotgun a sort of Security Rifle, sort of a high damage, low mag weapon for the HoS, akin to how Goonstation reserves a hunting rifle for the HoS in his personal armoury.

So each round might deal a lot of damage, such as 80 brute, as well as having 20 AP. But it only has three or so rounds per magazine.

[Zilenan91]

Sounds pretty good so long as it doesn't have too much spare ammo.

[Steelpoint]

Well one step at a time anyway.

Here's my progress on the Mark 58 Security Pistol, images included.

----

The Mark 58 holds ten rounds per magazine, security officers are issued one pistol as a standard issue sidearm, with it being equipped with a stun magazine. Officers are also issued a second magazine, additional mags can be acquired from the Warden or ordered from Cargo.

The Stun rounds currently act as a normal stun from a taser, aside from it being a bullet.

The lethal rounds currently deal 20 damage per round, HOWEVER this is a placeholder until we can agree on a good damage number.

Images below



To the left is a lethal magazine (armoury only), the middle is the HoS/Warden exclusive gun (Officers get no wooden grip) and to the right is a stun magazine.

[Tornadium]

I can see the shitstorm now as Security shoots an innocent black man who was just trying to fix the Bartenders face with a crowbar.

[Zilenan91]

Well one step at a time anyway.

Here's my progress on the Mark 58 Security Pistol, images included.

----

The Mark 58 holds ten rounds per magazine, security officers are issued one pistol as a standard issue sidearm, with it being equipped with a stun magazine. Officers are also issued a second magazine, additional mags can be acquired from the Warden or ordered from Cargo.

The Stun rounds currently act as a normal stun from a taser, aside from it being a bullet.

The lethal rounds currently deal 20 damage per round, HOWEVER this is a placeholder until we can agree on a good damage number.

Images below



To the left is a lethal magazine (armoury only), the middle is the HoS/Warden exclusive gun (Officers get no wooden grip) and to the right is a stun magazine.

How many spare lethal rounds will there be in the armoury? Also having the stun rounds do stamina damage would be far preferred over just stunning. I also feel like making the pistol do 25 brute would be preferrable.

[Steelpoint]

About six or so non-lethal magazines in the general armoury with five lethal magazines in the secure armoury. HoS and Warden will spawn/have in locker their own lethal mags so as to not immediently draw on the Armoury's supply.

Proactive Warden's would be wise in ordering more ammo to supplement security's ammo reserve.

[iamgoofball]

Hunting rifle's actually a CMO thing I think, comes with tranq rounds for him for unruly patients.

[Steelpoint]

I think they both get hunting rifles.

The Security Rifle is just a concept I'm throwing up, I'm more focused on the stock pistol and if we should make it standard issue or not. As well as the Security Auto Rifle.