Turning conversion modes into non-conversion modes.

[Dr_bee]

I was thinking, the primary problem with modes like cult, rev, and gangs is the exponential growth problem. Security has no comeback mechanic to overcome the rapid growth of conversion modes and jamming one into security seems like it would cause more balance problems than it would solve.

The problem is not with security as much as it is with the game modes, so instead of changing security, change the game modes. And the simplest way would be to remove or diminish the conversion mechanic.

Limiting cult to having a limited amount of cultists at roundstart and greatly limiting how those cultists get replaced would put security and the cult on more even footing. Some way to increase numbers should be a thing but it should primarily be via cloning or resurrecting already dead cultists, making fighting over bodies and helping your fellow cultists a requirement, instead of just converting another Assistant McGriffsalot.

It also would give security and the heads of staff an actual victory condition outside of calling the shuttle. Kill all the cultists and you end the round, or at least get a message to let the crew know the cult is no longer a threat.

Rev mode's entire gimmick is higher numbers of poorly equipped people against a smaller number of better equipped people so I dont know how well this solution will work for that mode. I dont know enough about gang mode to actually suggest a change that will work.

Clock cult already has a mechanic that limits recruitment somewhat in that it costs resources and takes longer for every cultist. Clock cult also requires conversions to progress, so it will be harder to tweak this way, but it can probably be done by increasing the price of conversion.

TL;DR: Instead of changing security and potentially unbalancing all game modes, change the game modes that are a problem.

[cedarbridge]

You just end up with something like Revsquad. The same antags with the same objectives only the conversion is removed and replaced with roundstart antag rolling. You end up having to compensate them with gear to make up for the inability to convert.

[Steelpoint]

Conversion works to substitute individual power for group power.

Antagonists that cannot increase their numbers typically are far more individually powerful.

Antagonists that can increase their numbers, in a natural and cheapish manner, are individually weak. But they compensate by raw numbers.

If we remove conversion, we would need to make these individual Revs, Cultists and Gangsters much more individually powerful.

We don't need four or five different variations of Nuke Ops.

[DemonFiren]

so you're saying we need four or five different variations of revs

[Luke Cox]

We tried Cult Ops, it was pure AIDS. We're better off making new modes with non-conversion mechanics in mind.

[CPTANT]

We tried Cult Ops, it was pure AIDS. We're better off making new modes with non-conversion mechanics in mind.

I don't know what you are referring to with cult ops, but all the iterations I have seen of bloodcult were all (shitty) conversion modes.

Yeah there was that time when they couldn't convert, but that just meant they made a construct out of you.

At least cult is now better than it was.

[Dr_bee]

Well if a nuke ups style mode wont work, how about simply making conversion harder. It is very hard to hire on new security when you compare it to the ease of conversion in modes like Cult and Revs. If conversions are limited by resources, or even simply capped at a certain number it may make the current feel of the mode feel better. At the moment cult rounds always go the same way, there is no variance in how the rounds go. Either security goes turbo hitler and locks down the crew or the cult snowballs and security cant do anything, no middle ground, no back and forth.

When it comes to constructs and cog-posibrains, I think that being reduced to a simplemob and the limiting of effectiveness it brings should mean that more of them should be allowed than full conversions. However I do wish there was a way to recover a person from being a clockwork brain or construct, like have destroying the construct free the soul and allow cloning again.

On the subject of individually empowering cultists, I think that is a horrible argument, the issue with cult is that every cultist has the most empowering thing ever, a free pass to make more cultists while removing an enemy.

That is a HUGE ability, and becoming cult also doesnt remove the access to other equipment either, so they are more powerful than security after roundstart as well as being more numerous.

Rev is limited by only have revheads being able to convert, gang is limited by the conversion pen recharge time, cult doesnt seem limted enough.

I am mostly suggesting that instead of attempting to change the shuttle call timer or security recruiting, we tweak the mechanic that is causing the need for 20 minute shuttle calls in the first place.

[Togopal]

Rev should have a cooldown conversion time like gang does. No more flashing everybody in the hallways, you need to be subtle and smart like an actual revolutionary leader.

[XDTM]

Roundstart cult squad with cultists wielding eldritch magicks sounds cool though, and gives more drive to use the revival runes. Even if there should be a workaround (maybe somewhat expensive) to counteract body destruction, or sec will just decapitate/cremate/gib the cultists to easily prevent revival.

[BeeSting12]

One of my favorite parts of conversion modes is how they involve the whole crew and not just a select number who won the grief lottery. I feel like this would make the rounds less fun for the majority, especially with the suggested changes to revs.

[Gun Hog]

One of my favorite parts of conversion modes is how they involve the whole crew and not just a select number who won the grief lottery. I feel like this would make the rounds less fun for the majority, especially with the suggested changes to revs.

This right here is why I love conversion modes. I also love blob and War Ops for the same reason. You do not have to be Sec in order to make a meaningful contribution to the fight. You just do not see motivated teamwork like this in the Traitor modes (Traitor, TraitorChan). Anything you do get pales in comparison.

I like to work together with the other players, be it team antag or as crew vs a very powerful antag. Traitor modes just do not do this for me. I do not want to fight or die alone. I want to die in a huge firefight as Security pours into my base, or bring the fight to Sec as my fellow antags and I rip Sec apart!

[InsaneHyena]

We already did it. Cult ops was fucking cancer, and everybody hated it. EVERYBODY. There were polls, where like 75% of the playerbase screamed that we should revert cult to it's original state, because it was just this goddamn awful.

[Wyzack]

Roundstart cult squad with cultists wielding eldritch magicks sounds cool though, and gives more drive to use the revival runes. Even if there should be a workaround (maybe somewhat expensive) to counteract body destruction, or sec will just decapitate/cremate/gib the cultists to easily prevent revival.

We did this. It was near universally hated

[onleavedontatme]

The solution to the crew being bored when it isnt a conversion mode is

1) Loosen the rules so people can fuck around and have fun*

or

2) Add things for them to do instead of coding another epic gun for the bad guys

*I know this wont happen but it makes my head hurt that the proposed """"solution""" to our rules stifling non antag interaction is to just make everyone a rule immune antag and just turn this amazingly unique game into a series of badly balanced death matches

[BeeSting12]

Make number one happen kor. Admins can deal with blatant griefers and the rest will be dealt with ICly.

[onleavedontatme]

It is basically an impossible position to push though because you have to defend rulebreaking to do it but most of my favourite memories of this game involve rulebreaking, for example

I was an asimov cyborg. Security tries several times to ion rifle me because I wont let them kill a non violent prisoner (rule breaking!). I escape with the prisoner, captain detonates me when I wont give up their location (rule breaking). The CMO (my metafriend! Uh oh!) Phoebe puts me into a humanized monkey and then gives me her SE/UI.

I flirt with the captain to get him to let me into the bridge before assassinating (rulebreaking!) and spacing him (more rule breaking). My story ends when I get in a lethal firefight (more rulebreaking!) with security to protect the real Phoebe who has been blamed for my crimes.

No admins were online so we got a crazy emergent story instead of daybans for everyone.

And on the opposite side I sure as hell dont remember the average rev round where everyone kills everyone because antag more than an hour later.

Turning an emergent story generator into just another shooter is such a waste when there are thousands of games that do that more competently

But how many other games can you play as a robot, unjustly murdered and then revived as a human doppleganger so you can seduce and murder your killer before going out in a blaze of glory to defend your creator?

[TehSteveo]

I don't see how Asimov cyborg protecting a nonviolent criminal from security executing them is rule-breaking. I also don't see an Asimov cyborg releasing and protecting said non-violent prisoner as rule-breaking. Unless you mean Security is rule-breaking, then yeah they were. Yet, things worked out in the end thus an admin can simply rule it IC issue and tell people who surely bitch they were not exactly being kosher to begin with either to the point that they could technically been talked with by an admin about their behaviors.

I've always advocated more of an approach to allow certain actions to be handled ICly within reason. It would help if people wouldn't argue back and forth over a singular event that happened in one forty minute round as if someone actually killed a person physically instead of making pixels go horizontal. Yes, there's concern if there's repetitive behaviors to a point there's a trend where a player is just here to make everyone else not have a good time, but not when something happens to them in a single round and things get somewhat carried away.

[Wyzack]

*ahelps* what the fuck ppl killed me wen I wasn't valid admins ban him?

[InsaneHyena]

Not all servers have valid-non valid rules. Russian server Animus, for example, handles pretty much everything as IC situations, and it works just fine - the world doesn't end.
There were, however, frequent civil wars between security and the rest of the crew. Or security and heads. Or between heads. But it was part of the fun.

[Nilons]

I like the idea of a cult starting with all its members and having to convert to replace those members as they die.