What do we need for an economy?

[Antimattercarp]

So exactly what do we need to set up an economy system at the bare minimum/moderate/max?
We need some sort of ATM, a point of sale device, some nebulous *thing* to integrate with the rest of the station and I am certain at least a little bit else to put things together at the min.
The reason I ask is that implementing one (perhaps with some sort of semi persistence between rounds?) would immediately create a whole bunch more role-play opportunities and potential motivations for characters. So, what needs to happen to set this up?

[paprika]

It might nerf vending machine food being abused by adding a price to it / making it harder to get to without an ID and money in your account and such.

[MMMiracles]

Gives an incentive to have more player interaction (cargo making you pay up for a crate you ordered), same with nerfing vending machines so people will actually eat the chef's food.

Also because not enough people heist the station vault for all that paper dosh.

[Kot]

Money.
We need money.

[Arete]

The most important thing is deciding what sort of effects we want it to have on the gameplay.

[Reimoo]

Money can't be worthless, for starters.

[callanrockslol]

The problem with money is that it is either completely useless outside of RP or the single most important thing in the game and changes the dynamics completely.

Frankly I'm against it because I've played on servers that have tried both and gone for middle ground and it just doesn't work.

[Scott]

We don't need an economy in the first place. What made you think this is a good idea?

[paprika]

yeah the more i think of an economy the more this feels like DarkRP or something and not a bunch of crewmen on a work station that are supposed to share and get along until people start shooting each other

[Saegrimr]

/vg/ has an economy system and money.
It gets just about as much use as Space Cash does on /tg/.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Idea threads should begin with answering questions such as "why do we need this" and "what do we gain by implementing this" and "what do we lose by not having this".

That way countless economy threads and baymed threads could stop appearing.

[cedarbridge]

Economy doesn't really make sense on a corporate space station anyway. There's no reason that security should have to buy things from cargo or science the same way that nobody should be required to pay medbay for treatment. Its all financed by The Corporation™.

[Reimoo]

The same argument could be used for it since Nanotrasen wants to pickpocket their own employees. How can you have a game about shady corporations in space and not have money involved?

[Incomptinence]

Money needs to be important to doing jobs/ murder/ to steal for people to WANT it. Player base is pretty willing to starve. Also I think money means there shouldn't be a limited vend amount for most vending machine items.

[cedarbridge]

The same argument could be used for it since Nanotrasen wants to pickpocket their own employees.

This would make sense if the money was going to NT to purchase NT products. Instead its Scienceville doing commerce with Chemtopia so they can plasma from Cargonia. Its literally micronations.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

The same argument could be used for it since Nanotrasen wants to pickpocket their own employees. How can you have a game about shady corporations in space and not have money involved?

See, lots of people have a poor understanding of how economy works. Money has to come from somewhere. If you employ people full time on a space station, most of them are unlikely to have other sources of income. It's cheaper to just not pay them rather than try to return parts of their salaries by selling things to them.

[miggles]

nobody would work full time on deathstation 13 if they didnt get money for it

[Lo6a4evskiy]

In 2014, sure, that would be true

[callanrockslol]

I think functional immortality through cloning is worth not getting payed by any standards, especially if you can beat up most of the things that would kill you singlehandedly anyway.

[Raven776]

According to fluff, you don't quite work for nanotresen so much as reside within them. At least with the wiki, corporations are the closest things to nations that you'll get. There are probably more nanotresen owned colonies and stations than anything else...

You work for Nanotresen because you must.

[Reimoo]

But nations, even some as iron fisted socialist as the USSR still payed government employees. You have to understand even oppressed people will never work for free unless they're slaves. But that's a different matter entirely. (Unless of course you want to try to reason that NT employees are literal slaves)

And besides, assuming currency will be distributed at regular intervals to simulate a salary system, you have to ensure money leaves the station somehow if you don't want to deal with inflation. NT endorsed goods/services would be a good money sink and would synergize well with the point I made earlier.

[kosmos]

If the reason to "why would we need an economy?" is "so the crew could have a common goal" or something like that, use all that designing/balancing/coding -effort towards just simple crew objectives. Economy would achieve the same but just go through a much more complicated route.
If it's just about roleplaying, wouldn't the space cash we have right now be sufficient enough for that?

[Lo6a4evskiy]

But nations, even some as iron fisted socialist as the USSR still payed government employees. You have to understand even oppressed people will never work for free unless they're slaves. But that's a different matter entirely. (Unless of course you want to try to reason that NT employees are literal slaves)

Even if legally they aren't property of NanoTrasen (which could actually be the case), they could work for food, beds, safety just because there is no alternative, because NT controls everything, holy shit, basic dystopian future.

Also, people don't have to be slaves to work for free. History knows cases where people worked as a way to repay debt, for example. Sounds like a good explanation to you?

However, all of that does not matter, because adding something like this with just fluff in mind is utterly pointless and is a waste of resources.

Also it's retarded for a company to try and make money sink from food that they sell to their own employees who probably don't have any other sources of income. It's just impossible to make profit from that, best you can do is stay even.

[Reimoo]

Also, people don't have to be slaves to work for free. History knows cases where people worked as a way to repay debt, for example. Sounds like a good explanation to you?

That implies NT employees owe their company something. I guess you could say that offering room and board is enough to justify NT stripping them of pay, but if this is the case then NT employees aren't really employees at all. Seems more like human property to me. Doesn't sit well with the whole corporation theme, but whatever.

I just think it seems silly to have all these unpaid expendable workers on a spacebound deathtrap being told that their ass belongs to Nanotrasen and they're perfectly fine with that. That's fluff wise. OOC wise it would be interesting to include scenarios where monetary greed plays a factor into players making decisions, antag or not. Self preservation is really the only deciding factor for any decision made ingame at the moment because players have nothing to gain and everything to lose during a round, leading them to act overly paranoid - AKA "powergaming". Right now the only motive for doing one's job is... well, nothing. Maybe to get fancy gadgets, but then again said fancy gadgets end up killing people, which may or may not include the creator.

In tl;dr terms, it would be interesting to toy with the idea of a currency system because it results in more gameplay depth.

[Antimattercarp]

( I actually forgot I made this)

The addition of an economy would be a deep gamechanger or not much of one at all. One of the ideas that I am thinking for this is a sort of semi-persistence between rounds.
I can imagine several ways we can mix and match this, I can imagine a liquid cash account that goes into a bank account at the end of rounds that lasts for about a week or two before it gets wiped between rounds that is attached to you being able to evacuate or something(Incentives for not dieing), a sort of stock system where you can pay money into and get some sort of raise in stock value when NT wins (or you can buy syndicate stock and get bonuses when said company within it wins), and maybe a sort of space swiss account that you can pay into that does not get wiped but only exists as a E-penis measuring stick.

[miggles]

In 2014, sure, that would be true

give me one reason why anyone would consistently endanger their lives to voluntarily work somewhere with no direct benefits

[Lo6a4evskiy]

You do not consider food and place to stay direct benefits? Actually, even in 2014 you could probably find people who would take the offer.

In 2554, there could simply be no alternative.

[miggles]

thats a hypothetical situation based on your own headcanon which doesnt really match with anyone else, as i would assume with much certainty that most players dont consider their characters to be severely impoverished.
a lot of players dont even really consider their own backstories, either.
i mean yes, it "could" be true. it "could" also be true that NT and the syndicate are the same thing, and changelings were created by wizards. but, just like your statement, neither of those things are proven to be true and they're both outlandishly stupid.
additionally, a diet of mostly raisins, and a dormitory consisting of less than 20 beds for a population of over 90, doesnt really constitute "food and a place to stay"

[cedarbridge]

I still stand by my point that there's nothing positive to gain from functionally creating micro-nations out of every department.

Medbay/Chem now charges for all of their services. Don't pay and you get to rot.
Cargo now gets used even less than it did before because now you're charging a fee for those crate products. Literal cargonia is here.
Sec is apparently concerned about money theft? I guess? Probably only so they can pocket the money so they can get those things they used to get from cargo/RnD/Chem etc
Engineering doesn't really have a monitized service or product to sell so they're SoL.
The librarian starves.
The mime and clown join the chaplain in begging for coin so they don't have to starve.

So really. Even assuming that this doesn't turn into a constant cycle of poverty and suffering, why should we be encouraging literally NATIONS every round?

[Lo6a4evskiy]

i mean yes, it "could" be true. it "could" also be true that NT and the syndicate are the same thing, and changelings were created by wizards. but, just like your statement, neither of those things are proven to be true and they're both outlandishly stupid.

Well, okay. I'm not really against it, if you want to code it, be my guest. It's just it's not gonna be used by anyone whatsoever unless you give them a reason to. Yes, a reason beyond backstory.

additionally, a diet of mostly raisins, and a dormitory consisting of less than 20 beds for a population of over 90, doesnt really constitute "food and a place to stay"

Because NT does not advertise equipped kitchen and hydroponics with ability to grow food on the spot, free coffee, tea, hot cocoa, cigs, huge amount of alcohol in bar and comfortable rooms in dorms, as well as a bunch of holographic activities including your own private tropical island. They only tell people about raisins and lack of beds. And everyone is of course aware of what deathtrap the station is before they ever get employed.

I mean, the whole argument was that it didn't make sense that people don't get paid. Well now you said it yourself, it is possible. So, that's dealt with then? It's just, like I said, it doesn't really matter because there are other reasons not to do this.

[Arete]

I still stand by my point that there's nothing positive to gain from functionally creating micro-nations out of every department.

Medbay/Chem now charges for all of their services. Don't pay and you get to rot.
Cargo now gets used even less than it did before because now you're charging a fee for those crate products. Literal cargonia is here.
Sec is apparently concerned about money theft? I guess? Probably only so they can pocket the money so they can get those things they used to get from cargo/RnD/Chem etc
Engineering doesn't really have a monitized service or product to sell so they're SoL.
The librarian starves.
The mime and clown join the chaplain in begging for coin so they don't have to starve.

So really. Even assuming that this doesn't turn into a constant cycle of poverty and suffering, why should we be encouraging literally NATIONS every round?

Counterpoint: As things stand, trying to get anything from the product-dispensing departments is a crapshoot due to the crew being busy with their own projects, busy being traitors, absent entirely, or just not feeling like giving you what you want. If they have some incentive beyond the kindness of their own hearts to give you stuff, then it could actually improve cooperation between departments. Decrying it as "literally nations" is really really oversimplifying things.

And librarians all deserve to suffer due to inheriting the original sin of Woody Got Wood. (More seriously, there are other measures that could be applied, like having some jobs start with money.)

[miggles]

all jobs should start with some money. money should be in your account, like other jobs, and you get paid in intervals of time. different jobs have different paychecks, with jobs that benefit most from selling things having lower paychecks so that their dosh comes from being good at their job.
everyone should have enough money to feed themselves unless they squander it all.

[lumipharon]

While I like the idea of money having a use, making it an economy doesn't make real IC sense/isn't that practical.

The station is a corporate facility, everyone onboard is a (probably) paid employee. Why would science be buying minerals from mining? The miners are paid by the corporation to mine. The minerals belong to the corporation, and the scientists are paid to use them for SCIENCE.

I mean of course it would make sense for the regular vending machines to charge people money (and through that, pay the barman to make drinks, if he has to pay for ingredients. But the actual 'official' work on the station, there is no logical reason why they'd be all paying each other. Also it's imbalanced as hell, since some jobs are cash sinks or cash faucets, so that would need to be balanced some how.

Alternatively, we could go MAX JEW and have most of everything cost cash.

For example, miner pays 100 credits to send the mining shuttle to the roid, goes mining with his pickaxe and 5000 credit mining bot, brings back his ore and refines it for 5000 credits.
Mr scientist comes to the redemption machine, chooses the minerals they want to buy, buys 20000 credits worth of minerals which gets paid directly to the miner, and take his minerals back to R&D. Miner now has mad dosh, which he spends on more mining shit, or booze. Mainly booze.
Science man puts the minerals in the protolathe, does some research, paying each time they deconstruct something, or build something.
They then start shitting out neat stuff, and selling it to the crew for more mad dosh, paying off their initial investment.
The clown then slips the scientist and steals the credit card and buys 500 banana's from the botanist.

All fees paid to NT, on top of some inital lump sum (using the machines and shit in this example) would be stored in some sort of electronc computer/safe thing, in the vault, which could probably be hacked somehow.
Crew get paid based electronically from the vault, so if someone steals all the dosh, no one gets paid, and everyone get butt blasted at the thief. Optionally, the captain can 'tax' all the crew to make up for lost funds.

This system would make a 'maximise profits' version of corporate lawset pretty hilarious, and is personally how I would do it, IF we decided we wanted an economy. Basically, everyone becomes a dirty jew, and sec fines people for petty crimes to pay for donuts from the secvender.

[cedarbridge]

While I like the idea of money having a use, making it an economy doesn't make real IC sense/isn't that practical.

The station is a corporate facility, everyone onboard is a (probably) paid employee. Why would science be buying minerals from mining? The miners are paid by the corporation to mine. The minerals belong to the corporation, and the scientists are paid to use them for SCIENCE.

This is what I was also trying to get at. The concept of departments buying things from each other and being required to purchase basic station materials just to function would make perfect sense if SS13 were some sort of citystate or grouping of city states. Each could be independent of the other and do commerce between them. The departments are not such nations though. This is supposed to be a corporate run and owned space station. Everything on the station belongs to NT from shift start to shift end. There should be no question or "crapshoot" to get things needed for work from their respective suppliers (cargo and chemistry generally) because providing those things is literally their job. Players fucking off from their jobs has very little to do with how many burgers a player can buy from the chef if somebody paid them for the toolbelt instead.

[Arete]

This is what I was also trying to get at. The concept of departments buying things from each other and being required to purchase basic station materials just to function would make perfect sense if SS13 were some sort of citystate or grouping of city states. Each could be independent of the other and do commerce between them. The departments are not such nations though. This is supposed to be a corporate run and owned space station. Everything on the station belongs to NT from shift start to shift end. There should be no question or "crapshoot" to get things needed for work from their respective suppliers (cargo and chemistry generally) because providing those things is literally their job. Players fucking off from their jobs has very little to do with how many burgers a player can buy from the chef if somebody paid them for the toolbelt instead.

If security gets paid by NT, and science gets paid by security to make some toys, and mining gets paid by science to deliver some minerals, then mining is functionally being paid on commission by NT. Being paid on your performance is nothing new, and historically, large corporations have owned company towns where most of the money they pay their employees gets paid right back into the company. It's essentially saying "You get money for doing your job, and the less money you need to do your job, the more of your wages you can actually keep." It's a bit elaborate, but certainly not nonsensical.

I don't think the lore arguments against having an economy really hold water. I think we should be discussing things in terms of positive and negative gameplay effects.

[cedarbridge]

This is what I was also trying to get at. The concept of departments buying things from each other and being required to purchase basic station materials just to function would make perfect sense if SS13 were some sort of citystate or grouping of city states. Each could be independent of the other and do commerce between them. The departments are not such nations though. This is supposed to be a corporate run and owned space station. Everything on the station belongs to NT from shift start to shift end. There should be no question or "crapshoot" to get things needed for work from their respective suppliers (cargo and chemistry generally) because providing those things is literally their job. Players fucking off from their jobs has very little to do with how many burgers a player can buy from the chef if somebody paid them for the toolbelt instead.

If security gets paid by NT, and science gets paid by security to make some toys, and mining gets paid by science to deliver some minerals, then mining is functionally being paid on commission by NT. Being paid on your performance is nothing new, and historically, large corporations have owned company towns where most of the money they pay their employees gets paid right back into the company. It's essentially saying "You get money for doing your job, and the less money you need to do your job, the more of your wages you can actually keep." It's a bit elaborate, but certainly not nonsensical.

I don't think the lore arguments against having an economy really hold water. I think we should be discussing things in terms of positive and negative gameplay effects.

You're building a house of cards out of Ifs here. If a series of decreasingly probable X, then Y. There's no reasonable or logical reason why a company would structure itself to require the purchasing of products from one department by another department for basic functioning. The same structuring would simply encourage "workers" at the top to take the money and fuck off because they're not actually required to do anything with it. You're literally describing a bizzaro "trickle down" SS13 economy.

If you seriously want to try to make departments economically bound to each other, impliment the departmental budget system we discussed in the last economics thread. Department heads are granted an overall departmental budget (probably scaled to server population, maybe not) that they can use to pay departmental wages to workers, order products from cargo, special order things from other departments outside the norm, place special cargo orders related to their departments but otherwise unobtainable (replacement grey slimes for xeno if they're bad enough to lose what they had), etc. Funds can be pulled and paid out to workers via Head of Department controlled wage settings etc. This adds space for heist antags/traitor objectives to steal X departmental credits or whatever. Bribes become appealing when there are things that only the person being bribed is interested in. RD REALLY wants that extra couple of illegal tech levels to get those neat secborg laser boards? He might just misplace a tank of plasma or a couple weapons cases if his wallet fattened up a little bit. Need something from storage or wherever but don't want to have to leave to get it yourself? Toss a greyshirt a couple bits and send them to fetch it for you. This makes much more sense in an IC sense as well because you're using money granted to the departments by the company to pay expenses the company would expect to incurr. Anything purchased by one department from another department is simply a measure of inventory. Its not "The RD bought some metal and now the RD has metal." it's "The RD used their departmental allowance to get the metal they were budgeted for the given job." Hell, even the HoP now has something to do other than parade around with his egun and assault greyshirts for looking at his dog. He's supposed to be the station personnel manager and that would overflow into financial auditor as well. He could have access to a console that showed the status of different departmental budgets and where the money is going. Anything untoward would be shown on an expense report. "Hmm, why does research need 300 sheets of metal anyway?" etc

Ultimately, money needs to fill a function that isn't "This is an extra annoyance you have to deal with before you get things you need to progress in a round." This is especially true for a game like SS13 where bombs going off and the like makes departments very cloistered. I'm not going to go haggle with cargo for metal to fix a hull breach as an engineer. I'm getting metal one way or another to fix the company property we're on.

[Raven776]

thats a hypothetical situation based on your own headcanon which doesnt really match with anyone else, as i would assume with much certainty that most players dont consider their characters to be severely impoverished.
a lot of players dont even really consider their own backstories, either.
i mean yes, it "could" be true. it "could" also be true that NT and the syndicate are the same thing, and changelings were created by wizards. but, just like your statement, neither of those things are proven to be true and they're both outlandishly stupid.
additionally, a diet of mostly raisins, and a dormitory consisting of less than 20 beds for a population of over 90, doesnt really constitute "food and a place to stay"

Far from this center, in the fringes of inhabited space, it is not traditional government but megacorporations that rule. Far too vast for oversight they are interplanetary nations onto themselves, ones without borders and without scruples. For two hundred years they have fought for space dollars and intellectual properties, content to let those old portals to humanity far gone lay derelict in the vacuum.

You work for nanotresen because you must. You work for nanotresen because the alternatives are likely worse. You work for nanotresen because you sold your soul for a comfortable, dangerous immortality.

Reasons for Existence[edit]
Plasma research, especially exothermic potential: dedicated science teams on hand for this purpose at all times. It is implied that Space Station 12 had even more. Since Space Station 13's construction, tighter regulations on research limits have been drafted in this field, bringing up a lot of questions from high-ranked employees.
Genetic research: Nanotrasen has a lot invested into military and security groups. Those modifications which could give their forces a leg up in both being hired and maintaining control would prove extremely valuable.
Blue Space research: teleportation technology has been rediscovered from before the Schism. Wormhole travel, the industry standard, is dangerous and prone to incorrect destinations. Existence of a parallel universe of proportionate size and filled with blue radiation has been recently uncovered, and both the properties of this mysterious area and the hazards of the technology used to access it need to be found out. For this reason, teleportation rigs have been provided and miniaturized versions of these devices have been placed in secure areas.
Artificial Intelligence field testing: a new generation of thinking machine has been developed. Rumor has it that it's based on theoretical human brain designs, though darker rumors say that actual brains taken from unwilling 'volunteers' are used in either the production or maintenance of these new systems. The newest version of one of several available models has been graciously provided by CentCom and entrusted with the electronic systems on board the station. No errors are expected and psychorobotic specialists have been provided for station convenience among the engineering staff.
Secondary directives: while a particular use has yet to be determined for the new station at this time, you can expect to see the station become used as a mining outpost, refueling station, supply depot, prison work release program, or some other application before activation is complete.
Features[edit]
Self-sufficient environment!
Fully stocked medical bay!
Advanced immortality measures!
A courteous and helpful security staff!
The latest and safest energy systems!
Behold the wonders of scientific advancement!
Olympic sized pool and lavish corporate housing!†

Money doesn't fit the only canon we have that isn't headcanon.

[srifenbyxp]

Spess Dosh should be implemented.

Reasons!
Force the crew to actually pay for food and drinks.
Buy neat shit like those cool clothes you can only find while mining.
Double as pseudo currency for cargo/miners, (maybe even restrict some items for dosh only).
Toys (Swrds por va vore')
Tools
Hats
More Hats
Makes the gambling more of an addiction (video poker!)
Gives traitors an objection to steal x amount of money via hack(takes a few ticks) or emag (instantly)
Gives security more of a reason to beat greyshirts for hacking ATMs

[miggles]

ich bin ein textwaller

mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall

[Incomptinence]

Instead of emag doing dosh interactions I would prefer if an agent ID card could sponge money off other cards like it does access. Have it do atm interactions too. Wait are we doing debit IDs or not?

[cedarbridge]

ich bin ein textwaller

mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall

Miggles, if you can't make it through a paragraph while discussing economics, you might as well give up.

You people should hear this guy:

( I actually forgot I made this)

The addition of an economy would be a deep gamechanger or not much of one at all. One of the ideas that I am thinking for this is a sort of semi-persistence between rounds.
I can imagine several ways we can mix and match this, I can imagine a liquid cash account that goes into a bank account at the end of rounds that lasts for about a week or two before it gets wiped between rounds that is attached to you being able to evacuate or something(Incentives for not dieing), a sort of stock system where you can pay money into and get some sort of raise in stock value when NT wins (or you can buy syndicate stock and get bonuses when said company within it wins), and maybe a sort of space swiss account that you can pay into that does not get wiped but only exists as a E-penis measuring stick.

This is the best option.

Things that persist between rounds are terrible though.

[Cipher3]

You people should hear this guy:

( I actually forgot I made this)

The addition of an economy would be a deep gamechanger or not much of one at all. One of the ideas that I am thinking for this is a sort of semi-persistence between rounds.
I can imagine several ways we can mix and match this, I can imagine a liquid cash account that goes into a bank account at the end of rounds that lasts for about a week or two before it gets wiped between rounds that is attached to you being able to evacuate or something(Incentives for not dieing), a sort of stock system where you can pay money into and get some sort of raise in stock value when NT wins (or you can buy syndicate stock and get bonuses when said company within it wins), and maybe a sort of space swiss account that you can pay into that does not get wiped but only exists as a E-penis measuring stick.

This is the best option.

Expletive no, that's terrible. All cross-character cross-life things designed like that are terrible.

[miggles]

ich bin ein textwaller

mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall

Miggles, if you can't make it through a paragraph while discussing economics, you might as well give up.

do you go to medschool?

[cedarbridge]

ich bin ein textwaller

mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall

Miggles, if you can't make it through a paragraph while discussing economics, you might as well give up.

do you go to medschool?

Some of us are gifted with an attention span slightly longer than 2 lines.

[miggles]

i asked you a question
it wasnt a sarcastic remark or a jab at you
i just want to know if you go to medschool

[cedarbridge]

i asked you a question
it wasnt a sarcastic remark or a jab at you
i just want to know if you go to medschool

No

[miggles]

then why do you care about the economy

[cedarbridge]

then why do you care about the economy

wat