Make hardsuits actually hard: no more mister stunbaton

[BONERMASTER]

So these huge, bulky suits, that protect you from space and slow you down, have about the same armor qualities as a hazard vest. And the latter let's you zip around with light-speed, while you're just about beating a snail with the hardsuit.

I think it would be fair to give some kind of benefit to these suits. The image you have when you wear these, versus how protected you actually are, is pretty far apart. Beefing up their armor qualities for one would fit, but let's also throw in some unique benefits, like a stunbaton not being able to knock you out. I think it makes no sense to have these huge layers of armor on you, yet somehow a small charge from a baton just instantly penetrates all of them and knocks you the fuck out, first time, everytime. I suppose, that goes for armor in general, but it would be more fitting if you had to target their weakspots, say arms and legs for ballistic vests, instead of just hitting the protective material and sending you flying to the ground.

A few other things I want to throw in here:
- Push-resistance based on what you are wearing
- Equip-delay for hardsuits so you can't just game the system by switching on/off mid-combat
- Focus drawbacks of hardsuits around mobility. When you have that massive shell on your head protecting you, but someone hits you really hard with a hammer anyway, it may not seriously injure you, but it should make you dizzy as hell. So someone in a hardsuit going toe to toe will get less hurt overall, but will struggle to keep pace.
- Favorable grappling bonus. I feel like these heavy metal suits should be really hard to get a good grip on, and assuming that all of these are sporting some sort of movement assist, it should also be easier to break out of grips, especially from say an assistant in his PJs. And I suppose it concludes, that grabbing someone in that suit would make it harder for them to escape your clutches. Perhaps increase the delay inbetween grabs, emphasizing the sluggishness of the suits and enable people to not get caught off guard by a fast random grab and then be completely incapacitated.

[Flatulent]

let’s make nukies even more powerful: the thread

when you make hardsuits be better at blocking melee attacks than riot suits you know something is wrong here

[Actionb]

My impression of what a SS13 hardsuit is: powered exoskeleton that helps wearing an atmospherics suit

Spoiler:

+

Not exactly Gundam.
And if that doesn't convice you, maybe think of a stun baton temporarily shutting down the exoskeleton.

[Helios]

let’s make nukies even more powerful: the thread

when you make hardsuits be better at blocking melee attacks than riot suits you know something is wrong here

But you don't have to.
Atmos hardsuits vs mining Hardsuits have different fire resistance. and other stats. If you want to buff station hardsuits and not buff nukie suits, that is something you can do

[BONERMASTER]

Listen, you can't point at a riot suit and say this should stop melee danage, but a full-body suit made out of metal shouldn't. I get it, one of these is specifically made to stop assistants from scratching your skin, but that dosen't mean that the other is not allowed to do that too. It's like the axe and the sword, doesn't matter which one you get hit with, they are both going to hurt very much.

You can also see ingame that this isn't just a buffed up jumpsuit, it's clearly armor that encapsulates you. And imho, it feels too weak for that. You give this suit the drawback that it's heavy and thus slows you down, but that weight and armor does not translate to be any kind of noticeable benefit to you. I guess you could say it's unfair, because you're pretty much getting the worst of both worlds.

[trollbreeder]

Listen, you can't point at a riot suit and say this should stop melee danage, but a full-body suit made out of metal shouldn't. I get it, one of these is specifically made to stop assistants from scratching your skin, but that dosen't mean that the other is not allowed to do that too. It's like the axe and the sword, doesn't matter which one you get hit with, they are both going to hurt very much.

You can also see ingame that this isn't just a buffed up jumpsuit, it's clearly armor that encapsulates you. And imho, it feels too weak for that. You give this suit the drawback that it's heavy and thus slows you down, but that weight and armor does not translate to be any kind of noticeable benefit to you. I guess you could say it's unfair, because you're pretty much getting the worst of both worlds.

then again what are you gonna do with engineering's hardsuits
and the cmo's
and the rd's
and sec's

[BONERMASTER]

???
what do you mean?

[Actionb]

You can also see ingame that this isn't just a buffed up jumpsuit, it's clearly armor that encapsulates you. And imho, it feels too weak for that. You give this suit the drawback that it's heavy and thus slows you down, but that weight and armor does not translate to be any kind of noticeable benefit to you. I guess you could say it's unfair, because you're pretty much getting the worst of both worlds.

1. That's called balance, it doesn't have to correlate to what is realistic. The benefit of engi/atmos hardsuits is pressure/temperature/radiation protection, because that's what the roles require.
2. Space suits, even hard-shell ones, needn't be 'armor'. They could be bulky and heavy and yet only be made of stuff like aluminium alloy and fibreglass. Where do you get that idea from that they are one shoulder-mounted rocket launcher away from being power armor?

[Super Aggro Crag]

Tardsuits

[Helios]

Where do you get that idea from that they are one shoulder-mounted rocket launcher away from being power armor?

The game we pretend wasn't the source for hardsuits but totally was.
Dead Space.
You can take some hits in dead space. Not many. But more than your unarmoured colleagues

[BONERMASTER]

That lays on hand, yeah. Though I want to address this in a general sense. Combat power armor is a different beast, and you can have things in there like advanced mobility assistance, integrated targeting huds, self-sealing armor, a shield, automatic injection of combat steroids, even an AI that lives in the suit and could take over in an emergency.
Obviously, we don't have that in our run off the mill engi and EVA suits. But they are made of a high-pressure withstanding metal. The chief and atmospheric suit can even stand in the middle of a firestorm, and be entirely untouched. So is it out of this world to ask that a shithead throwing a punch at this can not go through it like it's two sheets of paper?

[Helios]

Listen, you can't point at a riot suit and say this should stop melee danage, but a full-body suit made out of metal shouldn't. I get it, one of these is specifically made to stop assistants from scratching your skin, but that dosen't mean that the other is not allowed to do that too. It's like the axe and the sword, doesn't matter which one you get hit with, they are both going to hurt very much.

You can also see ingame that this isn't just a buffed up jumpsuit, it's clearly armor that encapsulates you. And imho, it feels too weak for that. You give this suit the drawback that it's heavy and thus slows you down, but that weight and armor does not translate to be any kind of noticeable benefit to you. I guess you could say it's unfair, because you're pretty much getting the worst of both worlds.

then again what are you gonna do with engineering's hardsuits
and the cmo's
and the rd's
and sec's

Maybe if we actually Buffed CMO and RD's hardsuit, we wouldn't have 19 assistants and no CMO or RD half the time

[Actionb]

Maybe if we actually Buffed CMO and RD's hardsuit, we wouldn't have 19 assistants and no CMO or RD half the time

Pretty sure you would just have more people stealing those suits. The same would apply to engi/atmos suits.

That lays on hand, yeah. Though I want to address this in a general sense. Combat power armor is a different beast, and you can have things in there like advanced mobility assistance, integrated targeting huds, self-sealing armor, a shield, automatic injection of combat steroids, even an AI that lives in the suit and could take over in an emergency.
Obviously, we don't have that in our run off the mill engi and EVA suits. But they are made of a high-pressure withstanding metal. The chief and atmospheric suit can even stand in the middle of a firestorm, and be entirely untouched. So is it out of this world to ask that a shithead throwing a punch at this can not go through it like it's two sheets of paper?

Given the overbearing and controlling nature of Nanotrasen, they might have used a material that is stronk vs pressure, but weak vs blunt melee.
You know, so that their security forces can beat the crap out of them without having to take off their suits first.

[BONERMASTER]

That's just grasping at straws now. If you don't like my idea, you can just say it, instead of giving me thin excuses that we don't need to change anything at all with hardsuits.

[Super Aggro Crag]

your idea would ruin game balance and you're a pigeon, the last thing we need is for engineers and fatmos techs to become invulnerable valid hunting machines cuz you want to live out your juvenile dad space power fantasy

[BONERMASTER]

Tell me HOW you're going to ruin game balance when you're going 2 km/h you scared baby.

[Actionb]

That's just grasping at straws now. If you don't like my idea, you can just say it, instead of giving me thin excuses that we don't need to change anything at all with hardsuits.

Nah, I am just trying to poke holes into your idea because I do not think it holds up very well (and because I'm bored).
You justify most of your idea with your impression of what should be realistic in this fictional game setting.

So I share my impression of what I consider a hardsuit to be and how it realistically need not be power armor. (to which only Helios had a valid reply)
Then I tackle the fictional side by pointing out that in this sci-fi game with fictional, unrealistic things there might just be a good fictional sci-fi explanation for why hardsuits have the properties that they have.
And all you have to say is: "you're grasping at straws"? At least try to come up with a counterargument that reinforces your idea instead of grasping at straws yourself.

[BONERMASTER]

What if I don't want to argue semantics with you?

[Actionb]

Your entire idea is build on semantics (defining hardsuits) and on your fantasy of what a hardsuit should be ("a punch shouldn't go through that!").
So if you are not interested in talking about the former, don't be suprised that the only other objections you are getting are targetted at the latter.
And that's just talking about the foundation of your argument - the implications (game balance) of your idea are an entirely different subject that you also seem to rather want to ignore?
There's some good things in your OP (like requiring time to put on the suit), it's just that most of the rest is poop in regards how you justify them... of which the armor value of the suit is by far the worst one even though it's your #1 reason.

TLDR: Just listen to Crag. He has that signature for a reason.

[BONERMASTER]

Get out of my thread.

[Helios]

Maybe if we actually Buffed CMO and RD's hardsuit, we wouldn't have 19 assistants and no CMO or RD half the time

Pretty sure you would just have more people stealing those suits. The same would apply to engi/atmos suits.

I can understand where you're coming from, but the natural conclusion of the "break into CMO/RD's office to steal their suit", is players just choosing those jobs, and putting on their suit at the start of the round.
The difference between breaking into the teleporter to steal the hand tele, and stealing a hardsuit is you can put the hand tele in your pocket or backpack, hardsuits aren't the same because they can't be put into bags, so if you're an assistant and actually put on the RD's hardsuit during a green shift, sec will check your ID and probably arrest you.

[BONERMASTER]

Another thing is, most people generally don't want to experience the reality of overseeing a station filled with violent spergs and idiotic monkeys. On manuel, I very often see the same people in the same headrole. Making these hardsuits a bit more exclusive and protective in nature, would maybe give the tiny little incentive necessary that would push people towards giving it a try.

[Helios]

Another thing is, most people generally don't want to experience the reality of overseeing a station filled with violent spergs and idiotic monkeys. On manuel, I very often see the same people in the same headrole. Making these hardsuits a bit more exclusive and protective in nature, would maybe give the tiny little incentive necessary that would push people towards giving it a try.

This also indirectly helps balance revs, which win direction has gone in the wrong direction recently. If Bryce Pax or William Dornan decides to start playing, say RD,because the hardsuit and hand tele when combined are just that robust, rev rounds will be more fun. As you can turn the RD into a teleporting around the station mad man, like an in-game megafauna

[Actionb]

I can understand where you're coming from, but the natural conclusion of the "break into CMO/RD's office to steal their suit", is players just choosing those jobs, and putting on their suit at the start of the round.
The difference between breaking into the teleporter to steal the hand tele, and stealing a hardsuit is you can put the hand tele in your pocket or backpack, hardsuits aren't the same because they can't be put into bags, so if you're an assistant and actually put on the RD's hardsuit during a green shift, sec will check your ID and probably arrest you.

And I can understand where you're going with this: incentivising players to take head roles is a good thing.
But you can turn that scenario on its head: people who steal or all-round-hog these suits do it for the environmental protection (or because they're a dick, but that doesn't really change here). The bulkiness and mobility penalty make the suits just too unattractive for anything or anyone else. Which is a good thing: you are meant to wear those in situations where you need that protection. If you make the suits more robust in a game about robustness, anyone will have more reason to wear/steal/hog it more often - and that isn't exclusive to just head roles. If the benefit of armor outweighs the hit to mobility, people will wear it 24/7 which goes against the idea of those suits being situational. In the end you're buffing a role via an item that isn't strictly exclusive or specific to their role... and the buff isn't even specific to the purpose of the item.

There's also something to be said about weaknesses making head roles what they are: a CMO isn't meant to be a juggernaut of destruction, the RD is a pushover until he gets his toys together. Also lol CE. Sure, a robust player in those roles can turn a rev around, but that usually comes from their robustness in the first place.

We've once had robust space suits: ye olde mining suits + goliath plates. I still wake up at nights screaming because of the dreadful things Durkel managed to do while wearing those, laughing off any attack that didn't come from a laser gun. /exaggeration

[NecromancerAnne]

Hardsuits generally have a lot of varied armor proofing, the basic ones being engineering hardsuits having okayish melee armor. They also grant a not insignificant list of protections while wearing them:

Environmentally protected, some cases making you immune to heat entirely (except extreme fusion wall melting heats).
You can spacewalk in them.
You can be reasonably safe from damage in many of them, like security hardsuits.
One of them is literally a combat hardsuit and it's the captain's MKII riot suit. It's got some beefy fucking stats AND environmental protections.
It protects you from biohazards like acid and syringes.
Nukies have hardsuits which literally have no downside and are already well armored and environmentally protected.
Miners presently get some too that are even better stat wise than nukies. FOR SOME REASON.

There is reason to use them. Spacewalking, and the ability to spacewalk, makes it far easier to manuever around the station and avoid threats. It lets you pop up pretty much anywhere you need to be by entering through external ports and destroyed windows and walls. It creates hazards around these areas as well, which unless the people you are fighting also have these suits, you can exploit this in a combat sense. I value EVA as a powerful tool, since environmental hazards are up there as a major risk you need to watch out for or you'll bite it pretty hard. Their only downside is their slowdown, but if they were straight up baton-proof to boot, who wouldn't use them? Their use should be strictly on-demand, not a no-brainer.

[BONERMASTER]

No, their armor sucks, all you need is to throw floor tiles at them and run circles around them until they bleed to death. And all the protections you listed is not an added bonus, it's their PURPOSE.
And I expect all the assistants to hear baton proof, and to then learn pretty fast that you will still get disablers and nets shot at you. And no, you can't kill an entire station by trading movement speed for being more hard to push over. The idea sets out to raise the defensive power of a suit, not rig it into an easy-ride murdermachine.

[Actionb]

No, their armor sucks, all you need is to throw floor tiles at them and run circles around them until they bleed to death. And all the protections you listed is not an added bonus, it's their PURPOSE.

Glad you finally understood it!

[trollbreeder]

No, their armor sucks, all you need is to throw floor tiles at them and run circles around them until they bleed to death. And all the protections you listed is not an added bonus, it's their PURPOSE.
And I expect all the assistants to hear baton proof, and to then learn pretty fast that you will still get disablers and nets shot at you. And no, you can't kill an entire station by trading movement speed for being more hard to push over. The idea sets out to raise the defensive power of a suit, not rig it into an easy-ride murdermachine.

you do realize that hardsuits are essentially compact EVA suits, right? their purpose is space missions, not armor

[Helios]

No, their armor sucks, all you need is to throw floor tiles at them and run circles around them until they bleed to death. And all the protections you listed is not an added bonus, it's their PURPOSE.
And I expect all the assistants to hear baton proof, and to then learn pretty fast that you will still get disablers and nets shot at you. And no, you can't kill an entire station by trading movement speed for being more hard to push over. The idea sets out to raise the defensive power of a suit, not rig it into an easy-ride murdermachine.

you do realize that hardsuits are essentially compact EVA suits, right? their purpose is space missions, not armor

I disagree. I think their name gives it away. There are hardsuits, and non-hard suits, or soft suits. EVA suits are soft suits, and don't provide protection against the environment, and are more meant against the void of space. Hardsuits are made of metal, and look more like a knight's suit of armor than an EVA suit.

[Jack7D1]

Hardsuits already have built in armor. Engineering hardsuits have radiation shielding, atmospherics hardsuits have heat shielding, security hardsuits have laser, bullet and melee shielding. All hardsuits already protect you a reasonable amount from melee damage. And If you're wearing one to powergame your inevitable Demise is on your hands.
Powergamers take note: being naked, slippery and covered in oil makes you impossible to catch and hit.

[NecromancerAnne]

The curator should be able to slather themselves in grease. Because seemingly they are scottish if the highlander kit is anything to go by.

[Jack7D1]

Lubed up naked assistants running around evading capture when

[Super Aggro Crag]

space lube up an assistant and give them midgetism so they can slide inside the captain's butt crack and leap out with a gun in case the nukies try to get the disk

[BONERMASTER]

you do realize that hardsuits are essentially compact EVA suits, right? their purpose is space missions, not armor

You tell me that a hand is essentially just a few pieces of flesh and bone with most of it being water after I'm done renovating your face, and I'll gladly consider your thesis.

[trollbreeder]

you do realize that hardsuits are essentially compact EVA suits, right? their purpose is space missions, not armor

You tell me that a hand is essentially just a few pieces of flesh and bone with most of it being water after I'm done renovating your face, and I'll gladly consider your thesis.

A hand is an appendage for grasping. Their purpose is to hold stuff.
We can do much more than holding with hands, but you get what i'm saying. Primary purpose with secondary usages tacked ontop.

[PKPenguin321]

itt: BONERMASTER tries to make things hard

[trollbreeder]

itt: BONERMASTER tries to make things hard

name checks out

[BONERMASTER]

Alright I'll just lock this fucking thread, this isn't going anywhere.