Paradox Grand Strat meets Sci-Fi 4X; Boners Explode

THE MIGHTY GALVATRON · Sat May 07, 2016 11:10 pm

Bottom post of the previous page:

This game is looking cool, I somehow missed it up to this point. Would love to cause the end of the galaxy.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Sat May 07, 2016 11:11 pm #174770

y'all are 6 hours earlier than CEST

ColonicAcid · Sat May 07, 2016 11:18 pm

I shall see what the state of the game is and then I may buy it.

But the latest I'll be able to play is probably Friday because you dorks play at dumb late times for me.

Incomptinence · Sat May 07, 2016 11:34 pm

Even if my internet shits itself and I can't play MP for whatever reason I am pretty sure I will be content singleplayer.

Anyway It releases 2 am and we are playing at 6 am in AEST (or +10 gmt see I can talk in time zone gobbledygook too) so I will probs be groggy.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Sat May 07, 2016 11:36 pm #174774

ColonicAcid wrote:I shall see what the state of the game is and then I may buy it.

But the latest I'll be able to play is probably Friday because you dorks play at dumb late times for me.

I can play against you at much earlier times than these Ameridorks because I live in glorious early Europoor, just hmu about it.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sun May 08, 2016 4:15 am #174832

Ayyyyyy almost there! Please double check this post for accuracy. Let me know if you are not on that list but should be...or maybe you're on that list and don't want to be.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/SpessF ... 163685780/

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Sun May 08, 2016 4:17 am #174833

Alright

Game Time is 4pm EST (Monday) 8pm GMT

Members playing are:

Ricotez CEST
Tedward EST
Skorvold EST
Tsaricide PST
K64 10Bong
Thatslyfox (EST)
An0n3 (EST)
Incomptinence (GMT+10)
Starmute (MST)

DROP INS
THEMIGHTYGALVATRON (PST) (Likely might be a drop in if he has work that day. Otherwise picks his own race.)
Grazyn (10 PM CEST,) (Might be able to make it might be a drop in)

9 Humans+ 2 Human drop in
21 AIs

Maybe playing (In the group)

Ikkarus
SteelGriffin

Not playing this round

Venitcular CST (can't play now but perhaps at a later date)
ColonicAcid (latest he can play is friday)
Steelpoint

If you need to confirm post in the thread or in the steam group.

Also I am considering starting up a Saturday only game. For all you nerds with real life responsibilities and non flexible jobs.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sun May 08, 2016 4:23 am #174834

I think we're just going all in and seeding the game with 32 players.

The game does support drop in/out for the races so if people can't make it to the start but want to jump in afterward or maybe after the first night when we pick it up again there will be room. You'll be joining in-media-res as a random alium nation that's been on auto-pilot but the AI seems pretty good at not fucking itself over (except when they welcome the Unbidden into the universe or some other shit).

Also if you're curious about it, someone updated the empire designer.

http://empiredesigner.xyz/
http://www.edwin-lai.com/stellaris-spec ... ?_k=biuzbm

If you are going to latejoin, or you just want to see what will happen to it, feel free to design a race and post it here and I'll seed it into the game. No guarantees it will survive long, but if you aren't planning on buying the game you might enjoy hearing about your own random people's fates.

THE MIGHTY GALVATRON · Sun May 08, 2016 4:45 am

I'll try to make it if I can, I'm in the PST so the game would be at 1pm for me and if I have work that day that's when my shift would end. Meaning I'd probably be about 30+ minutes late trying to get home.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sun May 08, 2016 5:14 am #174839

DAMN SON

People have been asking what the bonus to being a Pacifist is. We talked about some of their defensive abilities, but it still seems kinda lackluster, right?
"Gee whiz they're really good at taking a beating sounds great."

Well I think I figured it out:
Enlightened Monarchy.

1) -25% cost to edicts and +25% length to edicts. There's some good shit in there that can replicate the passives of other government types.
2) Can build Royal Gardens, which give a flat +10% happiness to all POP on the planet you build it on. That's a lot. Could allow you to bring an unruly planet into line, and by extension pacify a troubled sector if played right. This is only available once per ruler, so you can build one per King/Queen and then you have to wait for them to expire before you can do it again, apparently.
3) +1 Core Sector Planet. These are always nice bonuses. Allows your core sector to be just a little larger than normal.

I think that discount and buff to Edicts is potentially fuckin' huge. Look at that list. Taking some of those big guys down from 150 influence to only ~117 influence AND getting two and a half more years out of them.
If you research advanced governments you can bump that up to Irenic Monarchy, which doubles all your bonuses. Your bigass edicts only cost you 75 influence, last 15 years, and your core sector can have two more planets in it.

That looks preeeeeetty fuckin' good.

Supermichael777 · Sun May 08, 2016 5:31 am

Right so it seems the government/ethics specific event lines act as a balancing factor. notably some of the more powerful combos end up attracting a distressing amount of FS Shivan style precursors(rape set up to a nice medium) that your told not to bother.

Incomptinence · Sun May 08, 2016 5:34 am

Here is another race planner: http://stellarisspeciesgen.com/

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun May 08, 2016 10:37 am #174870

I can't pre-order but I will grab this in a few days.

tedward1337 · Sun May 08, 2016 12:44 pm

I'm upset that there's no pre-loading.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun May 08, 2016 12:48 pm #174889

The game's about 4gb's, but still annoying you can't pre load but at leasts its not around the more standard 50gb we're seeing.

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Sun May 08, 2016 3:13 pm #174901

Incomptinence wrote:Here is another race planner: http://stellarisspeciesgen.com/

HOOK MY SHIT UP ANON

Spoiler:

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sun May 08, 2016 6:20 pm #174922

JUST FUCK MY SPACE UP

Spoiler:

Because everyone needs a ready source of slaves. Don't worry, I think they enjoy it.
I made their happiness levels as high as it gets so if your citizens start leaving your empire to migrate there you can kill yourself in shame
I'd be surprised if they survive the first 100 years

Spoiler:

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Sun May 08, 2016 9:35 pm #174945

Seen enough of it that I've grabbed it. Stuck til tomorrow though.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Sun May 08, 2016 10:08 pm #174949

I tried to come up with a meme race based on digg but then I realized that I really don't want to play my first game of Stellaris as digg.

Might do something with a highly theocratic empire of devoted zealots, if I can come up with something funny that they worship.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sun May 08, 2016 10:18 pm #174953

I made those furries as a joke and to fuck with the table but honestly after thinking about how ethos drift works and migration I think I may have created a plague that will silently and irreversibly mutate across the galaxy.

You can't get your ethos drift to 0%. You can mitigate it somewhat with edicts, traits, and ethos picks but it'll never hit 0%. Which means your loyalist faction and other pops will always be taking in at least a trickle of neighboring pops' ethos and traits.

...and because the furries are INSANELY HAPPY and SUPER CHARISMATIC and also LOVE ALIENS it's highly likely their culture will be what your own people start to become corrupted by.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Sun May 08, 2016 10:29 pm #174955

seed them into our galaxy

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun May 08, 2016 10:30 pm #174956

So an interesting thing about being a xenophile and slavery.

The way happyness works, and the way slavery works, means that xenophiliac species often will be astoundingly unhappy as slaves, because there are only two real ways to play a slavery species: Xenophobia or collectivism. Because xenophobia has a lot of advantages collectivists don't, they would naturally have stronger economies once they get their slaves, meaning it seems like many species that go for alien slaves will be xenophobic rather than collectivist. Collectivist slaveholders mostly have the advantage of being able to self enslave, as well as being able to benefit from legit imigrant species which seem to be way stronger than slaves anyway, but xenophobes seem to get a lot of benefits involving 'flash' enslavement of primitive cultures and enemies and the ability to clear out their slaves way more efficiently through genocide.

Being a xenophiliac next to an alien race gives you a minor morale boost, but being the opposite ethos next to another race gives you a huge morale penalty. You become really good slaves to a xenophiliac slaveholder race, but terrible to the (probably) more common xenophobes.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Mon May 09, 2016 12:05 am #174977

REDACTED

tedward1337 · Mon May 09, 2016 12:59 am

Here comes the pain.

Spoiler:

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Mon May 09, 2016 1:20 am #174988

tedward1337 wrote:Here comes the pain.

Spoiler:
{"currentEthos":"{\"fanatic_collectivist\":\"fanatic_collectivist\",\"militarist\":\"militarist\"}","currentFTL":"Warp Travel","currentGovernment":"despotic_empire","currentPlanet":"OCEAN","currentWeapon":"Missile Weapons","empire":"Soviet Republic of Canada","ethosPoints":"0","excludedTraits":"[\"very_strong\",\"weak\",\"natural_physicists\",\"natural_sociologists\",\"solitary\"]","homeworld":"Canada","selectedTraits":"[\"decadent\",\"strong\",\"natural_engineers\",\"communal\"]","speciesName":"Glateau","star":"FunGuy's","traitPoints":"0"}

I tried to think of a canadian joke, I couldn't think of one. Sorry eh.

Incomptinence · Mon May 09, 2016 6:19 am

Turns out the founding race of your empire is a static thing determined by starting position. Bringing up a strange possibility where you can genetically modify your entire race into supermen but they they are all unhappy because they can no longer be leaders according to the xenophobic leadership policy, but will also be unhappy if the policy to let them be leaders is active because they are still xenophobes. I dunno if having them revolt then taking over the rebel faction would fix this.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 09, 2016 6:34 am #175039

Ethics drift seems to be more of a mid to late game problem that large empires will have to deal with, and can be mitigated via the selective usage of purges (if applicable), slavery, gerrymandering, shuffling populations around and making minor concessions and bribing off the faction leaders.

Incomptinence · Mon May 09, 2016 6:55 am

Oh and apparently at launch the slave faction will probably be switched to not functional on the whole rabble rousing bit because slaves were all in the same faction making it too strong for their liking. Like telepathy let them all be sparticus at once or some shit.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 09, 2016 6:59 am #175043

Steelpoint wrote:Ethics drift seems to be more of a mid to late game problem that large empires will have to deal with, and can be mitigated via the selective usage of purges (if applicable), slavery, gerrymandering, shuffling populations around and making minor concessions and bribing off the faction leaders.

From what I've seen it doesn't take very long to become a problem if you are expanding at a decent clip. Around the time you have to start dividing yourself into sectors is when it you really need to start paying attention to that shit. I think this is why some of the "friendlier" political affiliations are given a bonus to their core sector planets; it makes the problem just a little easier for them to handle.

Incomptinence wrote:Oh and apparently at launch the slave faction will probably be switched to not functional on the whole rabble rousing bit because slaves were all in the same faction making it too strong for their liking. Like telepathy let them all be sparticus at once or some shit.

That's silly. I kinda like the idea of all the ex-slaves banding together to fight THE OPPRESSORS as a collective whole, at least temporarily. They should have logistical problems and their own radical ethical issues that ultimately cause them to fracture up into various ex-pat factions of their own...but goddamn if there isn't a better reason to band together and fuck someone over than "we both know what it's like to be slaves".

Incomptinence · Mon May 09, 2016 7:10 am

I think they will turn it slaves into a regional factions after release you know like all the other factions but that's just my hope.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 09, 2016 7:14 am #175049

I imagine the wonky bit is when the slave rebellion you've caused turns around and starts trying to pathfind its way across the stars to go join a fleet halfway across the universe that is also engaged in a different rebellion, leaving player A with a very easy swathe of space to reclaim and player B now fighting more forces than he really ought to be dealing with.

I wonder how that affects the "promise independance" political option? Does that just not work yet? Will you promise to join a war on the side of a bunch of people who never appear, and now it's just you vs. the people they're rebelling against?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 09, 2016 7:16 am #175051

Slavery is wonky (and may be disabled ehhh) because slavery is overpowered.

Anyone who is a slave will never rebel, so if you put any pops that are causing trouble and make them slaves then they will never cause a fuss again.

The devs said they chose to focus on other features and that they were unsure how to handle slave uprisings and the such for the moment.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 09, 2016 7:18 am #175054

Too busy allowing migration from other empires and bombarding other species with xeno immigration edicts to care.
COME ON DOWN

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Mon May 09, 2016 7:19 am #175055

Incomptinence wrote:Oh and apparently at launch the slave faction will probably be switched to not functional on the whole rabble rousing bit because slaves were all in the same faction making it too strong for their liking. Like telepathy let them all be sparticus at once or some shit.

WHATTTTT

Links please

Incomptinence · Mon May 09, 2016 7:41 am

My secondary source is a dreadful anti preorder thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/in ... nt.926009/.

Going by what I read there it is just something they are unsure of how to do the feature its still gonna happen. Conjecture at the bottom of the first page is if you had slaves everywhere they could assault every planet they were on which for decadent players would probably mean every world is taken over.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 09, 2016 7:44 am #175064

[CITATION NEEDED]

I like the fourth poster down's screen name

"AnimeAthiest"

"M'moe..."

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 09, 2016 7:48 am #175065

I won't be able to make the 5am session.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Mon May 09, 2016 7:51 am #175067

Alright I joined the group, I will probably be able to play around 10 PM CEST, dunno if I can make it at game start but I have no problem hotjoining. This is my snowflake if you want to add it to the game

Spoiler:

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 09, 2016 8:07 am #175076

Okay, from what I've read the problem with slavery was that when a player's slaves revolted, they all revolted en masse across all of that players planets.
This was proving to be really difficult for players to handle, as they now had enemy armies at every planet they had slaves.

It's not that all slaves in the entire universe were forming up into one giant slave blob, it's that the slaves revolting in an empire would all do so spontaneously as one big group and kick the shit out of their masters.

I honestly don't see the problem here? If you're putting slaves on planets and not also keeping some armies around to keep them in line you kinda deserve to get your shit pushed in. If you don't need to create any kind of internal structure to keep slaves in line at all that makes keeping them OP as fuck. Maybe I'm still misinterpreting what they've said was the problem but that's how the situation appears to me.

Incomptinence · Mon May 09, 2016 8:16 am

Eh design decisions. I wouldn't mind being told to git good and put armies everywhere.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » Mon May 09, 2016 8:17 am #175079

An0n3 wrote:Okay, from what I've read the problem with slavery was that when a player's slaves revolted, they all revolted en masse across all of that players planets.
This was proving to be really difficult for players to handle, as they now had enemy armies at every planet they had slaves.

It's not that all slaves in the entire universe were forming up into one giant slave blob, it's that the slaves revolting in an empire would all do so spontaneously as one big group and kick the shit out of their masters.

I honestly don't see the problem here? If you're putting slaves on planets and not also keeping some armies around to keep them in line you kinda deserve to get your shit pushed in. If you don't need to create any kind of internal structure to keep slaves in line at all that makes keeping them OP as fuck. Maybe I'm still misinterpreting what they've said was the problem but that's how the situation appears to me.

Gotta keep a army to look after the slaves. I would imagine you should have at least a 3-1 combat advantage against the slaves to keep them under control

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 09, 2016 8:49 am #175089

Yeah I don't really see the problem here. Seems more like a balancing issue is needed for how much army you would need to commit to keeping them in line.

Slaves are potentially a big boost. They're free pops for going to war with people, something I imagine many people are going to do anyway. Conquering someone's shit AND getting more POP out of it? What's not to like?
There's also the double-dipping trait "Decadent" that gives you a point to spend in exchange for making your pops less happy when they don't have slaves. The inverse of this is that if you build your race out right you're getting a free bonus trait point for taking slaves. Some combination of Collectivist, Xenophobe, and Decadent is already the meta strat, and the game hasn't been officially released yet.

So, slaves need to have a cost, a downside. Just pissing off your own pop for having them isn't enough, it's quite simple to get 100% approval for xeno slaves anyway.
Ethos drift isn't really a huge factor here either, as the same ethos that makes your pops super chill with having slaves also make your pops far less likely to give a shit about xeno ethos. There will be some ethos drift from your enslaved pops to your loyalist pops but that goes both ways. Eventually some of those xeno pops will become collectivists themselves and learn to tolerate being enslaved.
What we do have is the potential ugly relations this puts you in with other aliums, and the threat of slavery revolts on your own planets. The former depends entirely on the composition of the other races. Some of them may not even care. Some of them who do care may be perfect fodder to become more slaves anyway. The latter, the slave revolts, the devs can't really decide on how powerful it should be or how to handle it.

...which sucks because it's ostensibly the most concrete drawback for having slaves. If we're going to enter a game where you can take slaves, but they'll never revolt, there's no reason not to play into that strategy.
If it's between the two, having a play space where slavery is totally risk free, and a play space where slavery can potentially burn down your entire empire if you get careless, I think the second option is much more fair.
I'm kinda surprised this turned into such an issue. I guess the slave armies must really be kicking the shit out of their masters to the point where there's no hope in fighting them off when they trigger.

...which is no fun. Slavery should work, and it should have some balancing point where you're riding an edge of committing just enough armies to your own planets to club anyone who steps out of line, but not wasting so much resources that keeping slaves is setting you back. You built for it, you should get a reward. A conquering machine that rolls over one empire, enslaves it, then puts those slaves to work building the war machines you'll use to conquer the next empire. And so on. But everyone should fear/hate you for that, and you should always have to keep an eye on, maybe consider purging some of, your slave POPS to make sure they don't ever reach a critical mass where they can overwhelm you, terrorize you, or turn all those weapons they've been building on you.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Mon May 09, 2016 9:04 am #175091

It's all about the rebel slave army strength, paradox had a bit of trouble balancing rebels in CK2 and EU4 with doomstacks of hell that you have no chance to fight if they popped right in the middle of your undefended space. So it's alright if you just have to leave some garrison fleet near slave planets and not sacrifice half your military power

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 09, 2016 9:05 am #175092

It just seems odd that they have this conflicted design element when the scale set by Robots is pretty similar.

Build dumb robots, you get cost-effective labor that's okay. Low risk, low reward.
Take a few slaves, you get cost-effective labor that's okay. Low risk, low reward.

Upgrade those robots and you get really good labor for the price, but now you have to keep them happy. If you don't, they might start the AI uprising and you could lose the game very quickly.
Take a ton of slaves and you get really good labor for the price, but now you have to keep them under control. If you don't, they might start a gigantic uprising and totally otherthrow your empire GG no re.

vs.

Build a few robots, you get cheap labor pops.
Take a few slaves, you get cheap labor pops.

Make advanced robots and you get great cheap labor pops. But they could cost you the game if you mishandle them.
Take a ton of slaves and you mass a ton of free labor. Only downside is some other empires maybe get mad at you. Meh. Go to war and enslave them too fuck it.

Grazyn wrote:So it's alright if you just have to leave some garrison fleet near slave planets and not sacrifice half your military power

Even if it was statistically half of your forces the production bonuses you get from massing all these slaves vs. an empire that doesn't means you still wind up ahead of them. The 1/2-3/4ths fighting force you can go exploring with may still eclipse the whole fighting force of someone who doesn't have that extra economic oomph. The cost of keeping people in line shouldn't outweigh the benefit from having them around, otherwise there's no reason to ever use slaves. If they balanced it that poorly they done goof'ed and just made the whole thing totally useless. I hate to say it but our own world history has shown that slave labor is really efficient and great for conquering empires. Sucks to be us.

I'm guessing something like this to be the current "oh fuck not this race again" build to go for if you just want to steamroll the shit out of everyone:
https://kaisersly.github.io/stellaris_r ... 7,17,21,23

Thrifty is a good potential alternative to Talented. Extra energy credits will help you maintain larger fleets, but Talented will give your leaders in all positions bonus skills, which translates to having your fleet admirals and planetary governers getting an edge in terms of fighting ability and production ability, respectively...so it seems like the better choice. If you're supremely confident in your ability to build and manage kick-ass fleets you could ditch both traits and just get "Very Strong" to stack even more ridiculous strength bonuses on your ground armies and go for ridiculous blitzkrieg raids on neighbors to quickly mass a fucking ton of slaves early in the game. We went with Despotic Empire here for my slavery synergy over the other Military governments because it makes the slaves we want to mass even more powerful but also lets us build an even bigger, badder military station to help us keep our space secured from revolts/raids/counter-attacks freeing up more of our fleet to go get more slaves. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Incomptinence · Mon May 09, 2016 9:21 am

Well since the sort of race I want to play is definitely in the unfair to weird territory, I was really looking forward to doing a simultaneous biomechanical ascendancy thing while shitting on some slaves, I will play something else.

So without much further ado I unveil my P team:

Spoiler:

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 09, 2016 9:22 am #175096

I think you can also use Robots for colonization, and as such Robots don't suffer and problems with habitability. Thus you can use them to take over planets you otherwise would not colonize.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon May 09, 2016 9:22 am #175097

Incomptinence wrote:-snip-

Beaten to death by a race of highly decorated engineers within the first 3 minutes of the game. RIP.

Steelpoint wrote:I think you can also use Robots for colonization, and as such Robots don't suffer and problems with habitability. Thus you can use them to take over planets you otherwise would not colonize.

True, but unless the slaves you are taking have the exact same type of homeworld as you do you should be able to force them onto at least one world type your loyalist race can't go.
GET TERRAFORMING, MAGGOT

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon May 09, 2016 9:23 am #175098

Incomptinence wrote:Well since the sort of race I want to play is definitely in the unfair to weird territory, I was really looking forward to doing a simultaneous biomechanical ascendancy thing while shitting on some slaves, I will play something else.

So without much further ado I unveil my P team:
Spoiler:
Polys' Polymophic Patriarchal Protectorate!

Now not just annoying but mutating and dissenting!
Code: Select all
{"currentPlanet":"DESERT","selectedTraits":"[\"repugnant\",\"intelligent\",\"natural_sociologists\"]","speciesName":"Polys","traitPoints":"0","currentWeapon":"Missile Weapons","currentGovernment":"science_directorate","currentFTL":"Wormhole Travel","excludedTraits":"[\"charismatic\",\"natural_engineers\",\"natural_physicists\"]","currentEthos":"{\"individualist\":\"individualist\",\"fanatic_materialist\":\"fanatic_materialist\"}","speciesHistory":"OH GOD IT'S LOOSE, CALL THE SHUTTLE!","empire":"Polys' Polymophic Patriarchal Protectorate","ethosPoints":"0"}

>poly
>patriarchial
My dear friend, do you not know Poly is a girl?

Incomptinence · Mon May 09, 2016 9:25 am

But it starts with P!

What am I now provincial?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 09, 2016 9:26 am #175100

Oh, here's the race I intended to use anyway. More so based off of a novel I've been re reading.

Code: Select all

{"currentEthos":"{\"spiritualist\":\"spiritualist\",\"fanatic_collectivist\":\"fanatic_collectivist\"}","currentFTL":"Warp Travel","currentGovernment":"divine_mandate","currentPlanet":"DESERT","currentWeapon":"Missile Weapons","empire":"The Race","ethosPoints":"0","excludedTraits":"[\"quick_learners\",\"venerable\"]","homeworld":"Home","portrait":"http://www.stellariswiki.com/images/thumb/e/e2/Reptilian_slender_04.png/94px-Reptilian_slender_04.png","selectedTraits":"[\"slow_learners\",\"conformists\",\"enduring\"]","speciesName":"Race","star":"Tau Ceti","traitPoints":"0"}

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon May 09, 2016 9:44 am #175102

I should totally make spessargonians.