2k17 /pol/

[Grazyn]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Can they even manage to leave the EU before the evil migrants raze London to the ground? Or is it too late?

[FantasticFwoosh]

Someone jumped off the bridge to get away, rumour is according to some news network. That's very grim. People were scrambling for their lives and force to jump off a bridge to save themselves. I don't mean to provoke a very negative parallel but thats literally the tier of crisis as the world trade centre in a microcosm.

Stones throw away from government, we can't put fucking billards up everywhere. I definitely call for pro-action because they are just going to do it again and again.

[Screemonster]

it's the fucking thames, I'm surprised they didn't bounce off the surface

[Super Aggro Crag]

Islams!

[FantasticFwoosh]

Stabbed a officer in the house of commons, got that far in and could have started attacking more people there and then if they weren't stopped.

[imblyings]

dare I say it, is now the time to be investing in candle and flower businesses

[Grazyn]

confirmed, the suspect is "asian"

[InsaneHyena]

Say it with me.

NOTHING

[FantasticFwoosh]

Guy has died and has been counted amongst the dead (fuck that, there are only 3 human being who have currently died today, not this DJ khaled lookalike) i misinterpreted the information of the attack as 12 people, it was originally 12 hurt but now its been assessed that 20 people were hurt in the incident.

[calzilla1]

It was an isolated incident, not all migrants are like that :^]

[FantasticFwoosh]

But terrorism in itself will always reflect badly on the perpetrator, culture, associates etc. though unfortunately for them when it glorifies such behaviour there isn't a leg to stand on.

[Malkevin]

It was an isolated incident, not all migrants are like that :^]

I'm just waiting for the media to report it as an isolated incident perpetrated by a mentally unstable individual

[ShadowDimentio]

Europe is fucked, but it's not too late UK! BREAK AWAY, SAVE YOURSELVES!

[imblyings]

Odd how its taken this long for terrorist groups or similar to use simple things like knives and cars for their attacks instead of guns and bombs.

[ShadowDimentio]

Terrorists have never been praised for their intelligence.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Low tech attacks are harder to keep tabs on than some kind of mastermind plot and the format suits lone wolves better.

- Attacker was known to the police, some rumours are its the leader of the "UK Sharia" a pro sharia law group that actively protests against the UK despite being based here, basically your archetype bunch of morons who live in the system but also work to undermine everything because they hate us. Just because they hate us and would impose their backward middle eastern despotcracy and ideology upon anybody who doesn't believe in it.

Edrogan is getting increasing tense, after Germany said no to a political rally too, and is making increasingly threatening comments. My older folks are making comments and have in some terms for a while that this will probably lead to civil war, or possibly a ethnicity motivated period of direct conflict like the attacks/tension happening to people in South Africa.

[Screemonster]

The norks will probably just put another Kim in place. Whether they'll actually do anything besides being a figurehead for the military is another matter.

[XSI]

Turkey is pretty fucked, with Erdogoat's murdering the tourism industry and the migrant stuff killing off what little goodwill they had in other countries
Russia hates them because of that plane and Syria
The west hates them because radical muslims and migrants

And the idiot is outright calling for what is essentially race war.
There is no way this can go well for Turkey, the only reason that they won't be invaded is NATO, and NATO countries are getting real sick of their shit. I would not be surprised if someone were to decide to arm the Kurds and support them splitting off from there, the butthurt from Turkey would be immense for sure, but at this point I'm fairly sure the world wouldn't give a shit and probably support the Kurds in that case

[InsaneHyena]

[DemonFiren]

We'll do what we do best, provide rope and wait.

[InsaneHyena]

I've thought what you do best is ruining Europe?

[DemonFiren]

We run it. We want returns on our investment, and that requires keeping it afloat somehow.

Plus we prefer a few dozen scary but irrelevant politically-motivated murders a year to all-out war.

[InsaneHyena]

>Eternal kraut tries to WW1
>Eternal kraut gets BTFO
>Eternal kraut tries to WW2
>Eternal kraut gets BTFO
>Eternal kraut decides to be subtle this time and engages in (((cultural enrichment)))

Germany was a mistake. Morgenthau plan should have been put into action.

[DemonFiren]

80 years of peace and prosperity.

Well, prosperity for us and I guess a little bit for the French. And the Scandinavians. And the Brits, but they've cut themselves off now, so fuck 'em.
EU did get too greedy. Shouldn't have expanded so fast, but hey, it's a learning experience and we're still better off than most other countries on Earth.

[InsaneHyena]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/783 ... -drugs-war

In the other news, Duterte continues threatening Trump's position as my favourite modern politician.
"You madmen, you sons of bitches. Stop interfering with us. I would be happy to hang you. If it were up to me I would hang you all.”
Ah, a man after my own heart.

[XSI]

80 years of peace and prosperity.

Thank NATO and the US for that
"Hey, if we don't all ally against the USSR, you're probably going to get fucked by them at some point and become a commie state. Lets ally, alright?"
And so everyone was allied, thus there was peace because if anyone declared war on their neighbour, they'd get ganged up on

And then the US decided that a ruined Europe was bad for its interests of "Europe being able to defend itself and not being communist", and decided to give out substantial wads of cash to European nations to help them rebuild
They called this the Marshall Plan. And it worked fairly well

It's almost as if we're now working on a reverse Marshall plan, in which Europe destroys itself and pays for the privilege too

[ShadowDimentio]

Your great peace and prosperity is about to have a rude awakening when the EU collapses, and that isn't far off if Pen wins, which is pretty much inevitable at this point since the French are sick and tired of living in a perpetual state of emergency and Pen is the only one with a solution to it, even if it may be a bad one.

[Luke Cox]

The EU would do well to learn the meaning of "quit while you're ahead"

[ShadowDimentio]

Yeah it was doing well for itself until it got greedy, rushed membership for a bunch of dirt poor eastern European and Mediterranean countries, and then the migrant crisis just brought it all to a boil.

[XSI]

>Implying the EU dying would hurt the peace or prosperity

We've build that peace and prosperity without the EU, we can maintain it without the EU

[Luke Cox]

The UK has quite a bit to gain and nothing to lose from leaving the EU. They were putting in a lot more than they were getting out.

[imblyings]

The EU really does seem like the merge and takeover of companies by larger companies to consolidate power in the hands of a few, instead applied to countries.

The EU isn't exactly a round table either since some countries have a lot more leverage and power. It's a prime example of someone trying to get everyones eggs in their own basket.

[Luke Cox]

Exactly. Member nations can have domestic politics dictated to them by a council of foreign politicians in a foreign country. Major EU figures keep pushing for the organization to gain more and more power. One guy even said he wants it to be an "empire of the good". Who knew that the people who were against a German-led superstate would be the ones being called Nazis

[Super Aggro Crag]

Tell me the EU isn't Germoneys way of enforcing hegemony over Europe and then I will point to demonfiren literally saying ignore Islamic terrorism or we will literally start a campaign of total war on your country.

[Malkevin]

EU was literally Hitler's plan for controlling Europe post Third Reich foundation.

[FantasticFwoosh]

EU is basically a guised single nation state as a endgoal, unlike the HRE which was a similarish format with elected leaders theoretically but most often from a few counties in the middle of central Germany (King of Spain was the HRE controller for a while, by a forced vote & inheritance etc, parts of the Spanish Empire & HRE was scary at the time in power) it worked for the medieval time versus such very real and present global threats.

- It has its own headquarters/captial, wants its own army, has its own anthem, and also has constituent nations (and not itty bitty ones like scotland wales & ireland in the UK) micro nations of 2 people can set up a country on that criteria.

Alliances are mostly in this day and age scrambled together for protection, being in the EU doesn't make us any safer than being in NATO, and i'd bet money that as soon as the EU was formed they would either try to ally with Russia (goodbye Poland probably sacrificed to appease Russia) and run anti UK & America rhetoric while actively working to disassemble NATO in favour of their own protective hand. The EU doesn't make us safer but seeks to 'culturally enrich us' with cheap labour from poor countries they throw around that feeds their exploitative socialistic nature (people are upset about cheap labor coming from abroad) and offshore and distant management of OUR politics, I myself voted to leave for brexit in the thought that one day they would try to rescind the vote of the houses of parliment because the UK would no longer exist as sovereign in the EU, basically defeating democracy for something that has the singular power to overrule democracy in a alien country depending on its uncertainly defined political structure. (not saying UK politics and houses of parliament are perfect, but in the existing EU politics a circle of 6 people get a say on what bills go through and which don't. Jean claude Junker is also a drunk buffoon i wouldn't trust with car keys let alone a EU union)

- Europe is failing, one big reason is socialism, lots of small countries RELY almost entirely on their domestic funding from the EU creating a problem for low income and low industry areas like Wales, in the past while we were still super-industrialised i think we could have come away from cutting off the EU laughing, but now its removing a umbilical cord of funding cash, which is almost like punishment for leaving in itself as the EU has been keeping areas of our country on life support for its own agenda.

If the EU is really shitbags, they'll send us a reciept of everything they spent on us just to negate the money we put aside to spend on membership.

[FantasticFwoosh]

What i find funny, is that if you look at all the areas outside of London, if they were to go independent (wales/ireland/scotland/'the north & middle england') their economies would collapse, which is why in the face of a country that shouldn't balkanise our union (without scotland N'ireland and wales we are not the UK) that the rest of the consituencies should detach from the "Royal City of London" and create a london vatican-state esque deal like in Italy. (I mean beef-eaters already fufill the role of the swiss guard)

We lost all our industry (a bit like middle america which isn't as rich as the left or right hand side America and also pushed Trump into the presidency like middle/north england pushed brexit and were treated like idiots who didn't know what they were doing by the elite.) and i think removing our formal ties to london and just getting on with it would help us while still existing while returning local legislative power to the people and then pass it over to the london national floor.

> National decisions are pushed from all constituents into the royal city of london, while local regional things are dealt with in constituent governments in england scotland ireland and wales, which have a mayor (two for england north & joint middle, london gets a joint south/southeast mayor as well as the prime minister representing the country & london)

- Might be able to convince all of ireland to join the UK if they have the power of their own government.

[DemonFiren]

Tell me the EU isn't Germoneys way of enforcing hegemony over Europe and then I will point to demonfiren literally saying ignore Islamic terrorism or we will literally start a campaign of total war on your country.

You're risking fake news. That's not what I said, or meant, at all.
I did say the Union's continued existence is more important than stopping terrorists. War between nations is a very ugly affair that, without the Union, will eventually break out, most likely in Eastern Europe, and spread across the continent.
Terrorist attacks are scary, sure, and people die. But it's organised crime, it can't cause much physical damage. Hence "terror", it is meant to inspire fear. Instead of running around like headless chickens and trying to barricade ourselves in all members of the Union ought to stand up as one and solemnly declare "we ain't scared of you, fuck yourself".
Alas, that's too reasonable ever to happen.

EU was literally Hitler's plan for controlling Europe post Third Reich foundation.

No, it wasn't.

Hitler's plan involved plopping down puppet governments in every conquered nation and controlling it all centrally. Everyone gets to be a Nazi (or gassed.) It's one big, powerful, centralised government controlled from Berlin.

The European Union is run by the elected representatives of its member states' voters.
The European Parliament's members are elected directly, and the parliaments and heads of state of the Union's member nations determine the composition of the European Court of Justice, the Council of Ministers, and the European Council plus president.
European Council and Parliament then propose and vote for, respectively, one representative from each member nation to make up the European Commission (again, plus president.)
The European Central Bank, meanwhile, is run by representatives of national banks, selected by the European Council as suggested by the Council of Ministers.

Finally, as the British seem so eager to remind the rest of us and yet so reluctant to actually do, any nation may leave the Union at any time in accordance with that nation's own laws. In Hitler's Europe that would have been slightly less likely.

[FantasticFwoosh]

EU was literally Hitler's plan for controlling Europe post Third Reich foundation.

No, it wasn't.

Hitler's plan involved plopping down puppet governments in every conquered nation and controlling it all centrally. Everyone gets to be a Nazi (or gassed.) It's one big, powerful, centralised government controlled from Berlin.

The European Union is run by the elected representatives of its member states' voters. (wrong, only some)
The European Parliament's members are elected directly, and the parliaments and heads of state of the Union's member nations determine the composition of the European Court of Justice, the Council of Ministers, and the European Council plus president. (doesn't matter if they are pro-eu nationalists signed up to the job)
European Council and Parliament then propose and vote for, respectively, one representative from each member nation to make up the European Commission (again, plus president.) (Germany as of 2014 has 96 voter seats, if france, italy and the UK drop out middling 70 seat each, germany can simply add more members to out vote everyone else on the panel and will have them trapped by the bollocks in political decisions, you can't make a vote on uneven vote numbers without swinging a inevitable decision)
The European Central Bank, meanwhile, is run by representatives of national banks, selected by the European Council as suggested by the Council of Ministers. (a elite group of representatives like the inner circle of the third reich if you want the distinction of ideology touting political leaders,, who once the EU bill is passed can simply rip up the rules and do as the EU says.)

Finally, as the British seem so eager to remind the rest of us and yet so reluctant to actually do, any nation may leave the Union at any time in accordance with that nation's own laws. In Hitler's Europe that would have been slightly less likely.

You can't see the distinction can you. Nazi or not, its pushing a single ideology and agenda (remove the nazi guilt please and see it through clear eyes, it was crawling on nearly in our lifetimes a 100 years ago), power from constituent nations ceases to exist in a central government including all of their legislation & promises (the uk bill of rights, overruled) and countries become bystander members of elected european parliment which we already don't engage in and if the door is closed in our faces, the UK and other minority members of the EU are effectively outvoted and shut out by a larger proportion of German and French MP's because fair and balanced elected representative numbers don't exist.

- Who gives a shit about luxumburg or switzerland? The European court of justice trumps all constituent courts of law already for member states, and therefore in a uncertain future post formation of a central EU (nobody knows how that will turn out, democracy could fly out of the window due to simple outvoting for pro-german/french) and then just change all the rules in a new bill so that people aren't afforded the luxury of leaving peacefully or making their own decisions.

The UK has already been threatened by Junker that the EU will make a example of us with a deal so terrible that nobody will want to follow us out and are desperately scrambling to save the project.

- If you want to tow the nazi line, this is achieving hitler's objective of creating a AXIS collusion of countries including Italy, without actually invading non-complicit countries but just inviting them into Nu-Germania, the very real and consistent threat here is that it might be only a matter of time that in the face of being a few members short of a united europe, if armed with a army they will start military action to complete the set and create a solid border line.

As largest contributor Merkel and whatever their successor may be has everything to gain from the project continuing (and joining the council for life post EU, think Caesar), but right now the UK,france, and Italy leaving would just make the process to forming a albeit weaker EU with a disproportionate but favorable margin much easier.

Snip

You're risking fake news. That's not what I said, or meant, at all.
I did say the Union's continued existence is more important than stopping terrorists. War between nations is a very ugly affair that, without the Union, will eventually break out, most likely in Eastern Europe, and spread across the continent.
Terrorist attacks are scary, sure, and people die. But it's organised crime, it can't cause much physical damage. Hence "terror", it is meant to inspire fear. Instead of running around like headless chickens and trying to barricade ourselves in all members of the Union ought to stand up as one and solemnly declare "we ain't scared of you, fuck yourself".

Son are you saying that the current setup of NATO is shit? Are you literally throwing NATO & the UN under the bus for a even smaller group of Europeans? You might want to check the watch for the current time period in seeing that we literally have America and the commonwealth as a huge suppliment of kick-ass against internatonal threats.

Stop being selfish about a united europe.

[DemonFiren]

Your capacity for strawmen is remarkable.
I can only hope that in the coming years you'll learn how to think with your brain and not with your gut.

[FantasticFwoosh]

The basic arguement is that our current format of colluding as independent national entities in combined forces isn't any less strong than a single nation state within NATO rather than a collusion of european countries forcefully tacked together.

So forcing us into a union where firstly we do not have a assured outcome or assured political net equality because the reality is that the biggest constituent part will near always win without total combined opposition of everyone else, who do you think im attacking via strawman proxy? Only the combined forces of france/ italy or france/UK could defeat a single unanimous vote from germany plus all the other smaller states bullied into line. (or even a completely combined french/italian & uk vote)

[DemonFiren]

False assumptions: not forceful, not less stable, not proportionately inequal.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Not yet, but it will be soon if france & italy fufill the prediction and leave and literally upset the number of seats, leaving a carp in charge of guppies. Its more a assumption of things to come (because nobody knows the future but we can take a crack at getting into people's heads and understanding it based on current events)

- Its already unstable, people are leaving left right and centre and the wave of conservative leaders, and i am quite certain as the situation gets more desperate that it will start getting more forceful. Holland leaving after a Wilders majority (just remember, geert wilder's party only became simply more powerful with more seats for a parallel even though he 'lost' but can still form a alliance with other parties to gain majority power) might not have set the world on fire, but every seat counts.

Right now the collusion of big countries keeps it stable and equally balanced lots of little countries are just going to get steamrolled unless the EU readily makes lots of changes to itself to try and rectify the problem. If the EU doesn't fall apart and start self cannibalising itself, its just going to be unbalanced and dip into autocracy.

[DemonFiren]

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If people believe it's unstable it will become unstable.

That applies to any government.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Including the EU, and they do. It is. Its happening right now as we speak, the boat is sinking and we need to ask ourselves despite the noble notion how, and exactly IF we want to save the boat or save ourselves.

[DemonFiren]

Can't have one without the other.

Unfortunately the solution - preventing people from being bullshitted by upstart politicians seeking to strengthen their own position at the expense of the entire Union (a suicidal move, strategically) - is a little difficult to implement.
Humans, by and large, are idiots who tend to oversimplify complex problems, prefer black-and-white mentality to the grayscale of reality and - which is not, in fact, a recent phenomenon - choose to believe in whatever stories they're told only if these stories conform with their established worldview.

Plus, we've always had this kind of politics. Every Union member, Germany included, sent its national representatives into the Union's institution with the express intention of getting as much out of it for themselves as they could. As a result the EU became an unpopular, lumbering Behemoth that they then derided, withholding the fact that they're directly responsible.


Don't get me wrong, I still love the Union. This, however, gives me the full right to criticise it and I do want to see change. In its current state it isn't going anywhere.

[FantasticFwoosh]

I don't view humans as idiots, your towing the line that enables 'idiot upstart politicians' to get away with things by demeaning and undermining the decisions that the public take that they are obliged to follow such as Brexit, the UK spoke but members inside and outside government fought against it hard (and still lost) assuming that everyone made a mistake or were mis-informed about the series of events. Politicians have travelled lately from being disreputable for personal affairs to being straight up dodgy elitists in the last 10 years.

You're not doing yourself any favours painting it so black and white yourself, the age of voting is relatively high to ensure that mature voters with a degree of life experience in knowing what they want are able to contribute as the voice of the public and fabric of society. Much to the fact the EU still thinks they are on the moral highground and won't conform or change in the face of widespread backlash about the downfalls of open borders, which really shows that the political elite are actually the delusional ones who are out of touch with the 'common people' who you branded as idiots in distant countries they throw legislation at 'for their best interests' who have actual working live to contribute to society and grounded worries about things going on.

- Currently our ex-chancellor of the exchequer who used to be a MP (claiming both wages and working both intensive jobs) now also works for a newspaper (politician in charge of a newspaper, REALLY? conflict of interest there) and has 6 jobs, this is the same person who would want to hog success for themselves after having a private education to segregate themselves from the (stupid normal people) by hiking on the past job experience criteria of being chancellor of the exchequer, who says the aristocratic system is dead and we live in a equal society huh?

I don't know how things are done in germany or within the EU public opinion wise but i hope you don't treat normal people with the contempt of children you're showing here and expect them to respect what you do & say. America and Britain are examples of that negative way of thinking in defying expectations.

[DemonFiren]

I feel the same contempt for every human being, including myself.
I also feel a baseline respect (hey, we are at least capable of reason, that deserves recognition) for every human being, possibly excluding myself.

We're a very intelligent species, but we're not past our animal nature yet. That keeps biting us, who we should know better, in the ass. It's hard not to get sick of this shit.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Then you most definitely have a problem in not assigning your contempt for the right people, because those who voted for brexit are reasoned for having their contempt rightly placed in aspects of our own goverment and most certainly in brussles, because unlike how people like to portray them they are not burnt up in eternal hatred as ill tempered racists and bigots all the time but are just very passionate in defence.

The poor and disadvantaged regions that put in a large majority during the brexit & middle blue collar america are if not the proudest people (maybe not the most piece for piece rich enough to enjoy a comprehensive and extended private education and make do on strained public spending) we have to offer for our nation's welfare which not only matters to themselves but to their livelyhood and jobs.

I mentioned previously, that if any of the other constituents were to go solely independent in the UK, their economies would collapse, just to highlight the divide between north & south wealth distribution.

[DemonFiren]

Wrong solution to the problem, in my opinion.
Emotionally-motivated, not rational, but carries significant risk for the future of an entire nation.
Thus worthy of contempt.

[FantasticFwoosh]

But you can have emotion behind rational reasoning. Many people feel alienated by EU legislation created 'for the good of group X', dislike the influx of migrant workers replacing low class jobs and fueling a economy where they are dependent on said migrant workers, dislike terrorists abusing EU movement rules coming from within the EU (ghettos in Belgium, France, Germany, UK etc.) and also dislike the idea of a EU national state altogether rescinding our national policy, sovereignty, laws and constitution to a distant and same alien power. (The queen hates it for good reason, it would effectively boot her out of her dominion)

- Rest of the EU in our eyes from the perspective of the UK is bending over and saying "Yeah go do whatever" like a episode of eurotrash, with frisky continental people wearing something Iamgoofball would make people wear in his gym.

At the end of the day we want the UK/America to be great again and do well.